Staying offsite and just booked advance FP+ for next week!

Cool! Do you have ADR's as well or did you only link the tickets to be able to choose FP+?

I did have a few ADRs booked a couple of months ago, and it wasn't until after I linked the park tickets last week that I was able to make FP+ selections. I did notice that the system was counting down days for me based on my ADR's though even before I had my tickets. If I clicked on the FP+ options it would say "Valid park admission needed" - once I linked the tickets, voila! I was so happy because I'd heard many reports that it wouldn't be possible, and I know it is going to be really crowded with Spring Breakers. I will be there for 5 days, and only purchased 4 days worth of tickets, because I will be receiving a complimentary convention ticket. I skipped a day of making FP+ with no problem (Have FP+ for Sun, Mon, Tues and Thur). When I receive that ticket, I will also link it up and hopefully be able to make selections for that missing day (Wed) :)
 
It is funny but seriously, if you don't have to use the AP to get in the park for the FP+ to be valid, there is no reason you couldn't mail your MBs to whomever you wish and allow them to use the reservations. Would I do this? No. Would some people do this? Yes.

There was nothing off about what you had said. It was just the way the previous poster has phrased the reply. :)
 
What if your a Disney vet who would never wait an hour for anything, ever?

I get completely cut out?

I just had this dicussion with my DD last night. It ended with her saying "So we are just going to ride three rides a day? Then what?"

If you went to RD, you could repeat a ride but if there are so many people in the FP line for Soarin' that WHEN THE PARK OPENS it starts with a hour SB line.

Maybe your first or second trip wandering around the park looking at the sites is enough but after a several dozen there are other ways to spend that kind of money.

I felt the same way before our last trip last week. I went into it with an open mind and you know what, we ended up having a great time. The days of riding Soarin', TT, TSMM, ToT, RnR, BTMRR, SM, Splash, and 7 Dwarfs multiple times are over, but it's not all gloom and doom. You do need to lower expectations, and you do need to go see Hall of Presidents and Country Bear Jamboree to fill the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
 
What if your a Disney vet who would never wait an hour for anything, ever?

I get completely cut out?

I just had this dicussion with my DD last night. It ended with her saying "So we are just going to ride three rides a day? Then what?"

If you went to RD, you could repeat a ride but if there are so many people in the FP line for Soarin' that WHEN THE PARK OPENS it starts with a hour SB line.

Maybe your first or second trip wandering around the park looking at the sites is enough but after a several dozen there are other ways to spend that kind of money.

Don't FP return times start at park opening now? That was not the case with legacy FP.
 

I felt the same way before our last trip last week. I went into it with an open mind and you know what, we ended up having a great time. The days of riding Soarin', TT, TSMM, ToT, RnR, BTMRR, SM, Splash, and 7 Dwarfs multiple times are over, but it's not all gloom and doom. You do need to lower expectations, and you do need to go see Hall of Presidents and Country Bear Jamboree to fill the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Some people just aren't OK with lowered expectations coupled with increased cost.
 
Some people just aren't OK with lowered expectations coupled with increased cost.
I totally understand. I'm not happy about it either, but the kids didn't seem to notice as much as I did.

The other thing is the crowds in the parks. It's nuts. I just think there has been a huge increase in guests and it's taxing everything and everybody.
 
There aren't enough FP+'s to go around. Yet there are too many being issued. Epic Fail.

This is why I stocked up on popcorn. And why I can't seem to leave these threads alone.

popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn::

How long before we see ebay listing for FP+?

Happened with CRT before the CC were charged, when all you needed was a name.

My bet is it won't be long. There are lots of things people do to make money which aren't allowed but are easy to get away with. Like the TA who books a campsite well in advance of a busy time and includes it in a package with a trailer rental -- totally not allowed but there is very little they can do to police it.

The AP thing is a stretch though -- few would be willing to take the risk with their own AP but I'm sure there are lots of entrepreneurs out there who would do it if they could. Regular tickets would work more easily though. And with less long term risk. And yes, regular unused tickets are fully transferable. They don't have a name attached to them until used. I doubt that many would have done this when a resort stay was required, but now that it isn't it's going to happen.
 
This is why I stocked up on popcorn. And why I can't seem to leave these threads alone.

popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn:: popcorn::



My bet is it won't be long. There are lots of things people do to make money which aren't allowed but are easy to get away with. Like the TA who books a campsite well in advance of a busy time and includes it in a package with a trailer rental -- totally not allowed but there is very little they can do to police it.

The AP thing is a stretch though -- few would be willing to take the risk with their own AP but I'm sure there are lots of entrepreneurs out there who would do it if they could. Regular tickets would work more easily though. And with less long term risk. And yes, regular unused tickets are fully transferable. They don't have a name attached to them until used. I doubt that many would have done this when a resort stay was required, but now that it isn't it's going to happen.

And I don't see how Disney could stop it and I really don't think they would care. They have the ticket money. That is what they want. They don't care that the FP+ aren't used or they will be kept from someone else.

I wish there was a way they could make it where you had to actually be in the park to get a FP. ;)
 
I felt the same way before our last trip last week. I went into it with an open mind and you know what, we ended up having a great time. The days of riding Soarin', TT, TSMM, ToT, RnR, BTMRR, SM, Splash, and 7 Dwarfs multiple times are over, but it's not all gloom and doom. You do need to lower expectations, and you do need to go see Hall of Presidents and Country Bear Jamboree to fill the time. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Ummm, YES IT IS!!

This is a joke right?

-Jason
 
My money is on you. I think that anyone with a ticket in their pocket and ADRs on the calendar will be able to do this. When people speak of Disney wanting to incentivize people into staying on site, they have to remember that WDW only has 25,000 rooms. At an occupancy average of 3.7 people per room, even if every room were filled, that would be only 92,500 people on property. Subtract out the people who won't be visiting a park on any given day because they are attending conferences, cheering/dance/sporting events, weddings, and people who are just taking a "resort day" and that would leave around 80,000 on site people to go to the parks. Disney wants and needs far, far more people than that in its parks, so it has to do what it can to attract off site people to go to WDW as opposed to any other area resort. If anything, Disney has an even greater desire to "lock in" the off site guests as they are the ones whose attendance is most vulnerable to change. So this whole idea that FP+ is and should be an on site perk has always been nonsense. I suspect that if you show your loyalty by linking ADRs and tickets, they will reward you. At least, I hope.:flower3:
WDW has 24,000 hotel rooms and 3,000 DVC 2-bedroom equivalent villas.

The interesting number is the 79% occupancy rate or, alternatively, the 21% unoccupied rooms.

That's over 5,600 empty rooms per night.

At last year's Per Room Guest Spending of $267 per night, that works out to over $550 million per year in lost revenue at just the hotels, not including the money those guests spend at the parks.

Despite much higher ticket and food prices, WDW theme park attendance is up. Disney doesn't need to provide much incentive for more theme park guests.

Despite higher theme park attendance, WDW's hotel occupancy rate is down. Eventually, Disney will need to do something to increase hotel stays.
 
And I don't see how Disney could stop it and I really don't think they would care. They have the ticket money. That is what they want. They don't care that the FP+ aren't used or they will be kept from someone else.

I wish there was a way they could make it where you had to actually be in the park to get a FP. ;)

When talking about what people would do, you must always remember that $50 for a days work is a LOT for some folks. Especially if they are also getting government assistance, and that $50 is under the table.


I could easily see 2 people that live in Orlando sell their FP+ for the day, go to the park, meet the people there, and wait for them to use the FP+. IF you had 3 MK headlines, right in a row, you could meet the folks 45 minutes into the first window at the ride, give them the bands, let them ride it, go to the next one immediately, and then you only have to wait for 45 minutes of so for the third ride. Always make sure the third ride is the least of the 3, some folks would just pass on it.

At worst case, you spend 3 hours or so to make $50 for 3 FP+. And you could probably charge even more during peak times.

Disney could do very little, since if they said you couldn't transfer, you could just point at parents giving kids their bands.

The seller would have to trust that the person doesn't run away with the bands, but that really wouldn't do them any good. And you can be at the ride outlet to get with them immediately.

If there are limitless 20 somethings who would buy a toy at TRU for $15, just to resell for $20, and make a few bucks profit after fees, plenty would do this.

-Jason
 
And I don't see how Disney could stop it and I really don't think they would care. They have the ticket money. That is what they want. They don't care that the FP+ aren't used or they will be kept from someone else.

Oh for sure. There is nothing much they can do to stop it. The point I was making was that this sort of nonsense is now starting because they have created an opportunity and the perception of a need for it though their poorly functioning system. Before FP+ there was no scope to do that. Because there was nothing to sell.

I wish there was a way they could make it where you had to actually be in the park to get a FP. ;)
It's a great idea. Someone should suggest it to Disney, Who cares if they claim the idea as their brainchild ;)
 
We just assumed you had to have your ticket/band activated at the gate entrance to be able to use the FP+ for that day. My parents and us all had 5 day tickets but they only went 4 days. I assumed I couldn't make FP+ for 2 extra tix unless they came in the park that day.

There are also 2 FP+ scan points. One at the ride enterance and one closer to the actual ride. I think that is to prevent easier hand offs and less sneaking through the gates as they don't watch super carefully at each FP+ scan.
 
The interesting number is the 79% occupancy rate or, alternatively, the 21% unoccupied rooms.

That's over 5,600 empty rooms per night.
Here is where statistics get weird. If I have a hotel with 500 rooms and a 90% occupancy rate, I have 50 empty rooms. I then go on a massive expansion kick and end up with 20,000 rooms and a 79% occupancy rate. Now I have 4,200 empty rooms. One might be aghast at that number of empty rooms, but I'd rater be in the second position than the first. Occupacy rate is never going to be 100% and the proprietor doesn't expect as much. 79% is pretty darn good, especially when you account for mid-week during the school year when there aren't any holidays or vacations going on. If you can account for an average of 79% occupancy, you take that and run with it.

At last year's Per Room Guest Spending of $267 per night, that works out to over $550 million per year in lost revenue at just the hotels, not including the money those guests spend at the parks.
But it isn't "lost" if you never had it. Perhaps it isn't "realized" but it isn't lost. Disney cannot go from 10,000 hotel rooms to 25,000 hotel room, fill 79% of those rooms, and then step back and say that it is losing revenue because it has some empty rooms. Instead, it has to step back and crow about the fact that it is now filling 20,000 rooms, which it was never able to do before. Besides, your math assumes a 100% occupancy rate which is not the realistic goal of any hotel chain that has 25,000 rooms. It might be their pipe dream. But not their goal. Bump the 79% up to 85% and you capture $180M more, not $550M more.

Despite higher theme park attendance, WDW's hotel occupancy rate is down. Eventually, Disney will need to do something to increase hotel stays.
But it isn't "down". Disney has never, to my knowledge, had an occupancy level of over 20,000 rooms per night, on average, in any given year. There are more occupied rooms now than ever before in terms of net rooms rented and net people on property. Percentages are the wrong way to look at revenue. And there is one and only one proven way to boost occupancy rates, and that is to lower the rate of the room itself. (Free dining can do that as well, because the overall balance of high room rate plus free food does, at some level, equate to a cheaper room plus out of pocket food costs.) Gimmicks, limited time magic, early hours, or what have you, will never have the same impact as taking that $550 room at the Yacht Club and pricing it out at $275 where it belongs.



All that said, I am not sure what the point of this is. My earlier post was simply a demonstration that Disney is not now, has not in the past, and never will ostracize its off site guests. It needs them too much. Even at 100% occupancy of 25,000 rooms (which cannot happen), the total number of guests that that contributes to the parks is far less than half of what Disney wants in the parks on a given day, especially a busy day. 25,000 full rooms is fewer than 100,000 people. If 85% of those people go to a park on any given day, that is 85,000 people. That isn't close to what they want to come through the turnstiles. So they will, and have to, treat off site guests in a manner that will get them into the parks.
 
Here is where statistics get weird. If I have a hotel with 500 rooms and a 90% occupancy rate, I have 50 empty rooms. I then go on a massive expansion kick and end up with 20,000 rooms and a 79% occupancy rate. Now I have 4,200 empty rooms. One might be aghast at that number of empty rooms, but I'd rater be in the second position than the first. Occupacy rate is never going to be 100% and the proprietor doesn't expect as much. 79% is pretty darn good, especially when you account for mid-week during the school year when there aren't any holidays or vacations going on. If you can account for an average of 79% occupancy, you take that and run with it.


But it isn't "lost" if you never had it. Perhaps it isn't "realized" but it isn't lost. Disney cannot go from 10,000 hotel rooms to 25,000 hotel room, fill 79% of those rooms, and then step back and say that it is losing revenue because it has some empty rooms. Instead, it has to step back and crow about the fact that it is now filling 20,000 rooms, which it was never able to do before. Besides, your math assumes a 100% occupancy rate which is not the realistic goal of any hotel chain that has 25,000 rooms. It might be their pipe dream. But not their goal. Bump the 79% up to 85% and you capture $180M more, not $550M more.


But it isn't "down". Disney has never, to my knowledge, had an occupancy level of over 20,000 rooms per night, on average, in any given year. There are more occupied rooms now than ever before in terms of net rooms rented and net people on property. Percentages are the wrong way to look at revenue. And there is one and only one proven way to boost occupancy rates, and that is to lower the rate of the room itself. (Free dining can do that as well, because the overall balance of high room rate plus free food does, at some level, equate to a cheaper room plus out of pocket food costs.) Gimmicks, limited time magic, early hours, or what have you, will never have the same impact as taking that $550 room at the Yacht Club and pricing it out at $275 where it belongs.



All that said, I am not sure what the point of this is. My earlier post was simply a demonstration that Disney is not now, has not in the past, and never will ostracize its off site guests. It needs them too much. Even at 100% occupancy of 25,000 rooms (which cannot happen), the total number of guests that that contributes to the parks is far less than half of what Disney wants in the parks on a given day, especially a busy day. 25,000 full rooms is fewer than 100,000 people. If 85% of those people go to a park on any given day, that is 85,000 people. That isn't close to what they want to come through the turnstiles. So they will, and have to, treat off site guests in a manner that will get them into the parks.

Two things, don't look at the avg occ rate as a specific percentage. Why? because the 79% makes it look better than it is. Assume they're above 90% during the busy times(well above, much of it). If that's the case, interpret how bad it is in the slow times.

Also, it's been flat to declining- bad for reporting and expense, since it's also a very high expense side with little ability to decrease base expense beyond payroll (if you have over 40% occ- the hall lights, the pool, grounds common area heating and cooling, on and on, are still the same as if you're at 100% occ). Since so much of a hotel's expense is very predictable, any increase in occ is one of the better ways to increase profitability- especially since on-site guest have a higher spend rate...
 
Here is where statistics get weird. If I have a hotel with 500 rooms and a 90% occupancy rate, I have 50 empty rooms. I then go on a massive expansion kick and end up with 20,000 rooms and a 79% occupancy rate. Now I have 4,200 empty rooms. One might be aghast at that number of empty rooms, but I'd rater be in the second position than the first. Occupacy rate is never going to be 100% and the proprietor doesn't expect as much. 79% is pretty darn good, especially when you account for mid-week during the school year when there aren't any holidays or vacations going on. If you can account for an average of 79% occupancy, you take that and run with it.

But it isn't "lost" if you never had it. Perhaps it isn't "realized" but it isn't lost. Disney cannot go from 10,000 hotel rooms to 25,000 hotel room, fill 79% of those rooms, and then step back and say that it is losing revenue because it has some empty rooms. Instead, it has to step back and crow about the fact that it is now filling 20,000 rooms, which it was never able to do before. Besides, your math assumes a 100% occupancy rate which is not the realistic goal of any hotel chain that has 25,000 rooms. It might be their pipe dream. But not their goal. Bump the 79% up to 85% and you capture $180M more, not $550M more.

But it isn't "down". Disney has never, to my knowledge, had an occupancy level of over 20,000 rooms per night, on average, in any given year. There are more occupied rooms now than ever before in terms of net rooms rented and net people on property. Percentages are the wrong way to look at revenue. And there is one and only one proven way to boost occupancy rates, and that is to lower the rate of the room itself. (Free dining can do that as well, because the overall balance of high room rate plus free food does, at some level, equate to a cheaper room plus out of pocket food costs.) Gimmicks, limited time magic, early hours, or what have you, will never have the same impact as taking that $550 room at the Yacht Club and pricing it out at $275 where it belongs.

All that said, I am not sure what the point of this is. My earlier post was simply a demonstration that Disney is not now, has not in the past, and never will ostracize its off site guests. It needs them too much. Even at 100% occupancy of 25,000 rooms (which cannot happen), the total number of guests that that contributes to the parks is far less than half of what Disney wants in the parks on a given day, especially a busy day. 25,000 full rooms is fewer than 100,000 people. If 85% of those people go to a park on any given day, that is 85,000 people. That isn't close to what they want to come through the turnstiles. So they will, and have to, treat off site guests in a manner that will get them into the parks.

20% of your hotel rooms empty per night on average is a lost opportunity. When you take into account per-guest-spending, onsite provides a way higher percentage of Disney's profit than the simple onsite/offsite ratio would suggest. So even if they lose some offsiters, but gain onsiters, the math can still work out. I believe Disney used to be at 90% occupancy, and yes, they have built more, but I think we can assume they would like to get back to 90%.

I agree though, Disney can't ignore offsiters. If they could, they would have made WDW an all-inclusive a long time ago.

I guess the question is what balance are they going to strike. I'm happy that they are bringing offsiters on prebooking, if only for selfish reasons and because those kiosks were a mess. But I still can't see how they don't try to use this system to increase occupancy in some way.

I think the question is...now that they have limited FP numbers per person with FP+, why stay onsite if you aren't getting an advantage? If you feel you are getting a lesser experience now, you might as well spend less on it. Or perhaps spread your vacation dollars to other places in Orlando ;)

This is why I think that onsite is going to get bonus FPs.
 
ArwenMarie said:
I think the question is...now that they have limited FP numbers per person with FP+, why stay onsite if you aren't getting an advantage? If you are getting a lesser experience now, you might as well spend less on it.

There was no advantage to staying on-site with paper FPs, why did guest choose to stay on-site before? All of those other reasons are still there.
 
There was no advantage to staying on-site with paper FPs, why did guest choose to stay on-site before? All of those other reasons are still there.

I know! Seems illogical.

Here's why I think this...Before, you were in control of your day. So if you know how to work paper FPs, make rope drop, had a touring plan, all of those things, you could do well.

Now that option is taken away.

So now, you're left with 3 prebooked FPs per day (2 or 1 in Epcot and DHS). Now you're not in control of your day anymore. You will probably never have a day like you used to have when you were the master of paper FP.

So you're looking at your vacation budget, looking at what you are going to get for it now, and all of a sudden it looks less appealing. Paying more for less.

As soon as people start thinking that, they start thinking of ways to make it feel better. Like someone said on this thread above, why stay at a Disney Deluxe now? Might as well stay at the Four Seasons, go do your prebooked rides, and then enjoy that resort. Or someone else might think, eh, I'll still come, but I'll stay offsite. At least it will cost me less. Or maybe I'll split my stay with Universal now.

I think the thing is that once you sow dissatisfaction, people start thinking of ways to get rid of that feeling. It doesn't mean they are going to give up entirely.

That's why I think bonus FPs for onsite are coming.
 
Here's why I think this...Before, you were in control of your day. So if you know how to work paper FPs, make rope drop, had a touring plan, all of those things, you could do well.

Now that option is taken away.

Well written! :thumbsup2
 


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