Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reaction and Discussion *CONTAINS SPOILERS*

[FCDub]

There's this very strange misconception that Lucas had 4, 5 and 6 all mapped out from the beginning. (Lucas will claim he knew all along, but having Luke and Leia make out in Empire to then have them be siblings is nothing short of twisted if he knew this from the start.) If you just watch them, it's clear to see that's absolutely not the case as a lot gets hand-waved away as not important.

There was a LOT for the next set of directors and writers to figure out as the story progressed.

 

[SWRdtWD]

Oh, and I have serious concerns about JJ's next iteration of Star Wars. I was thrilled when he signed on to do TFA because I thought what he did to reboot the Star Trek franchise was outstanding! Setting things up seems to be in his wheelhouse. Bringing stories to a satisfying conclusion? Not so much.

I do hope they let us know sooner rather than later what they're doing with Leia's character, ESPECIALLY if they end up recasting her (which I don't think they'll do, but who knows? ). I think giving us some time to come to terms with what will happen to her could help the audience be more accepting of it.

The problem with Abrams has always been he is a pigeonholed reboot guy who gets caught up in "mystery" but leads them to dead ends/unsatisfying conclusions for the audiences.

So yeah...serious concerns are warranted.

I don't think he's necessarily the problem, though. I think Kennedy and the way the stories are being greenlit are...

Just me.

 

[Iowamomof4]

The problem with Abrams has always been he is a pigeonholed reboot guy who gets caught up in "mystery" but leads them to dead ends/unsatisfying conclusions for the audiences.

So yeah...serious concerns are warranted.

I don't think he's necessarily the problem, though. I think Kennedy and the way the stories are being greenlit are...

Just me.

Maybe he'll surprise us this time. Maybe he sees this as his chance to prove he has learned from his mistakes and is capable of ending these story arcs. Maybe the fact that he could use this movie to also set up a future trilogy will help him - since he could create a nugget of a shiny new mystery along with bring to a close the current story. Anything is possible.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Don't want to make this a LOST discussion but I think the main problem with LOST was that the writers strike happened just as the show was getting going(maybe season 2) this is also what I think ruined the show HEROS. We gave up on LOST and HEROS in Season 2(maybe 3 for LOST) but I actually went back and binge watched both. I am really glad I did LOST, HEROS.... not so much. In this case it wasn't a writers strike they actually purposely decided to go with a different screenwriter/director for TLJ. They did the same with Harry Potter and it drove me in that instance as well. Why would you ever do that?

I also feel an issue with Lost was they didn't know how long the series was going to run from the start and wound up making things up as they went a bit and then I think it initially went longer than they were initially thinking (one reason they introduced new characters from the tail section, etc) but then decided on an ending date and had to fit it all together going with a conclusion that seemed to be against what they said it would be

I love Lost overall but using that as an example of how JJ can wrap things up well is not the best argument in my mind

 

[KaptKaveman]

I don't think he's necessarily the problem, though. I think Kennedy and the way the stories are being greenlit are...

Just me.

Nope not just you. Someone should have read the rough draft for TLJ and said "are you sure this is really the way you want to go with this?"

There's this very strange misconception that Lucas had 4, 5 and 6 all mapped out from the beginning. (Lucas will claim he knew all along, but having Luke and Leia make out in Episode 7 to then have them be siblings is nothing short of twisted if he knew this from the start.) If you just watch them, it's clear to see that's absolutely not the case as a lot gets hand-waved away as not important.

Enough was mapped out from 4 - 6 that at least the main story arc was coherent and made sense.

 

[KaptKaveman]

I also feel an issue with Lost was they didn't know how long the series was going to run from the start and wound up making things up as they went a bit and then I think it initially went longer than they were initially thinking (one reason they introduced new characters from the tail section, etc) but then decided on an ending date and had to fit it all together going with a conclusion that seemed to be against what they said it would be

I love Lost overall but using that as an example of how JJ can wrap things up well is not the best argument in my mind

I wasn't, I was using it as an example of what happens when there is an interruption in the creative process as happened with the writers strike. In the case of TLJ it wasn't a writers strike that led to this, they did it seemingly on purpose.

 

[SWRdtWD]

There's this very strange misconception that Lucas had 4, 5 and 6 all mapped out from the beginning. (Lucas will claim he knew all along, but having Luke and Leia make out in Episode 7 to then have them be siblings is nothing short of twisted if he knew this from the start.) If you just watch them, it's clear to see that's absolutely not the case as a lot gets hand-waved away as not important.

There was a LOT for the next set of directors and writers to figure out as the story progressed.

Correct...he did not have them all mapped out.

What he did have was Gary Kurtz, Leigh brackett (for foundation), a much more hungry lawrence Kasdan, Irv kirshner, Howard kazanjian, Richard Marquand and a team of incredible editors (including his ex wife) to mold the production and massage the story problems that Lucas himself said he had. We'll documented in books and interviews since. Kurtz was huge...and left when he felt the story focus was being lost for financial motives.

Disney's team...Is not that strong. There's been no evidence of that.

Want to hear a whackamole idea? Bring george back in on the creative side...nowhere near the budget or production. That's where he fails. Give him a story challenge...without any financial concerns.

Tony gilroy - known for the Bourne series - is one of the best cutters around. And I think the end sequences of rogue one were beautiful...more of that...

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I agree with this.

There were tons of empire comparisons when it came out. That was fan zeal and looked out of tune almost immediately.

But no...not on the level of "Wookiee day" either.

The business aspects and whether disney makes moves as a correction - down the near road in their ever so sly way - is the key.
I think the criticism is gonna grow...and really effect digital and bluray sales. And lead to a drop for the potential take for 9.

Basically...i bet Johnson loses his movies. I'm sure it will be "his choice"...as always.

I do find disney to be treating this like fox and universal would - as a ten year tent pole franchise shot for international appeal...and not what it is: the core modern western market movie property. That's a costly longterm mistake.

I think all three movies could have been better:
1. Didn't need to reboot
2. Should have embraced rogue one and learned lesson...instead of downplaying it and airing dirty laundry in the Hollywood press prior to its release.
3. For this movie, get a story/screenwriter - an actual star wars fan, get editors (they apparently skipped that), and frankly a better director.

I would rank the disney 3 movies squarely in the middle. They don't eclipse the first set...they fix a lot of the prequel mistakes.

My take. Is that what they were shooting for in October of 2012?

One thing is I think they wanted this to be a reboot, at least to some extent rather than just living off the original. Same reason they are having SWGE set in a new location rather than an existing one - they want to be able to drive what things are and control things and not be beholden to things they didn't create

Obviously we can argue/discuss/disagree if they are doing it well or not (I certainly don't think it has been perfect but I get what they are trying to do)

As for where the new movies rank, I also have them in the middle (though I am not a huge fan of Jedi so have that lower)

I think I have it (currently) as
- Empire
- Rogue One
(Small gap)
- A New Hope
- TFA
- TLJ
(Though these three I see as close - I think the best parts of TLJ are really good but it is a less even and complete movie)
(Bit of a gap)
- Sith
- Jedi
(Large gap)
- TPM
- AotC

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I wasn't, I was using it as an example of what happens when there is an interruption in the creative process as happened with the writers strike. In the case of TLJ it wasn't a writers strike that led to this, they did it seemingly on purpose.

I didn't mean to imply you were - I was adding an additional reason I feel there were issues with Lost is all

 

[SWRdtWD]

Nope not just you. Someone should have read the rough draft for TLJ and said "are you sure this is really the way you want to go with this?"
.

I think it should have been:

"No...we can't have 2/3 of our trilogy runtime where we end up back at zero except killing off the core characters...that won't hold our financial interests longterm. We're bringing in help"

And then when fisher died:

" time for edits and reshoots...you can't have the only link to the originals die offscreen with no resultion...at a minimum - you gotta swap them..."

And as far as how to do the last one - it's so easy it's elementary...the pieces were all there.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Correct...he did not have them all mapped out.

What he did have was Gary Kurtz, Leigh brackett (for foundation), a much more hungry lawrence Kasdan, Irv kirshner, Howard kazanjian, Richard Marquand and a team of incredible editors (including his ex wife) to mold the production and massage the story problems that Lucas himself said he had. We'll documented in books and interviews since. Kurtz was huge...and left when he felt the story focus was being lost for financial motives.

Disney's team...Is not that strong. There's been no evidence of that.

Want to hear a whackamole idea? Bring george back in on the creative side...nowhere near the budget or production. That's where he fails. Give him a story challenge...without any financial concerns.

Tony gilroy - known for the Bourne series - is one of the best cutters around. And I think the end sequences of rogue one were beautiful...more of that...

I am not as well versed on it all as you are but didn't Lucas have control over the storyline of the prequels? That was, not good

I don't disagree they shouldn't have had better or more or other people involved with editing of this but not sure having George involved would help

I think they are trying to satisfy a lot of masters/stakeholders/etc as they need the franchise and the new lands being built to last for the long term and continue to being in new audiences and new fans, along with the old

the Force Awakes was to remind people of what they loved about Star Wars. the Last Jedi was to move it beyond that and distance the new from the old so it can move forward. Celery they could have done a better job but I do get what they are trying to do

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I think it should have been:

"No...we can't have 2/3 of our trilogy runtime where we end up back at zero except killing off the core characters...that won't hold our financial interests longterm. We're bringing in help"

And then when fisher died:

" time for edits and reshoots...you can't have the only link to the originals die offscreen with no resultion...at a minimum - you gotta swap them..."

And as far as how to do the last one - it's so easy it's elementary...the pieces were all there.

I do wonder if they would have changed things had they known Fisher was going to die - as you indicate, plenty easy to adjust - just have her swap with Holdo and then have Luke did what he did, but then not become a Force Ghost, rather just still be alive on ahch-tu

 

[umichigan10]

One thing is I think they wanted this to be a reboot, at least to some extent rather than just living off the original. Same reason they are having SWGE set in a new location rather than an existing one - they want to be able to drive what things are and control things and not be beholden to things they didn't create

Obviously we can argue/discuss/disagree if they are doing it well or not (I certainly don't think it has been perfect but I get what they are trying to do)

As for where the new movies rank, I also have them in the middle (though I am not a huge fan of Jedi so have that lower)

I think I have it (currently) as
- Empire
- Rogue One
(Small gap)
- A New Hope
- TFA
- TLJ
(Though these three I see as close - I think the best parts of TLJ are really good but it is a less even and complete movie)
(Bit of a gap)
- Sith
- Jedi
(Large gap)
- TPM
- AotC

You and I are pretty cut from the same cloth with our rankings. Rogue one was an incredible film that’s easily my favorite of the new movies.

And attack of the clones sucks. A lot.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

You and I are pretty cut from the same cloth with our rankings. Rogue one was an incredible film that’s easily my favorite of the new movies.

And attack of the clones sucks. A lot.

There are some really bad parts to TPM in my mind ("and that's podracing!") but at least you had Maul and that fight scene and Qui Gon is a great and interesting character

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Even though I think Disney is satisfied with the box office, I do think the negative press has hurt the movie. People on the fence could definitely be staying home. (Though most people that I know wanted to see it went anyways.) Not sure if it hurt repeat viewings - I think the majority of people nowadays don't pay to see movies more than once at the theater - it's just too expensive and they are available at home so quickly.)

This is a good point. Also everyone has a 60 inch tv with great sound you can get a much closer to theater experience at home now than even 5 years ago. A big reason to see these movies in the theater for me is to see them with a crowd. The only movies I’ve seen more than once at the theater probably since the prequels are TFW and TLJ.

_____________________
We have a 55" TV (though no surround sound, etc) but we don't see movies more than once in a theater partially due to cost but we can get roughly $5 per ticket on Tuesday and we have $ rewards stored up so it's not that big of a financial cost.

But really for us it's because there are usually other movies out there that we want to see. I mean I know I'll be able to see a movie again either via my library having the DVD, Netflix DVD (yeah I still have that for those movies that are harder to get through the library, etc), the premium channels like HBO, Starz/Encore, etc (though we don't have EPIX), or even Redbox (though nowadays we usually use a code for that so it's either reduced price or free) or getting it as a Christmas gift (which we get Blu-rays now for gifts) so spending the time and money to go see it again when there is usually another movie already out or coming out very soon makes it less worthwhile to see it again in the theaters when I know I'll be able to see it again (though yes the sound and screen aren't exactly the same true on the part) via a different outlet.

 

[SWRdtWD]

One thing is I think they wanted this to be a reboot, at least to some extent rather than just living off the original. Same reason they are having SWGE set in a new location rather than an existing one - they want to be able to drive what things are and control things and not be beholden to things they didn't create

Obviously we can argue/discuss/disagree if they are doing it well or not (I certainly don't think it has been perfect but I get what they are trying to do)

As for where the new movies rank, I also have them in the middle (though I am not a huge fan of Jedi so have that lower)

I think I have it (currently) as
- Empire
- Rogue One
(Small gap)
- A New Hope
- TFA
- TLJ
(Though these three I see as close - I think the best parts of TLJ are really good but it is a less even and complete movie)
(Bit of a gap)
- Sith
- Jedi
(Large gap)
- TPM
- AotC

You know when clones came out and the defenders of ep 1 said:
"The next movie will make it better..."

Well, it didn't...neither did Christensen's dominated episode 3.

I think that jedi was just made a better movie...if you watch them all in sequence...or even jumbled...it holds up more with each new release.

So I would have the first 3, rogue 1 ontop in order of preference...7 significantly down...the 8 well below that...then 3, 2 and 1 in the cellar

 

[TheMaxRebo]

You know when clones came out and the defenders of ep 1 said:
"The next movie will make it better..."

Well, it didn't...neither did Christensen's dominated episode 3.

I think that jedi was just made a better movie...if you watch them all in sequence...or even jumbled...it holds up more with each new release.

So I would have the first 3, rogue 1 ontop in order of preference...7 significantly down...the 8 well below that...then 3, 2 and 1 in the cellar

Funny in that I think Episode 3 is better each time I watch it (Christiansen is still tough to handle) but I think the high points of it are better than the high points of Jedi

But other than that we aren't that dissimilar

 

[umichigan10]

There are some really bad parts to TPM in my mind ("and that's podracing!") but at least you had Maul and that fight scene and Qui Gon is a great and interesting character

One of the great travesties of phantom menace is Liam neesons wasted acting performance.

I also feel like TPM has a coherent plot to it that would be good if not for jar jar and young anakin. Whereas clones has some points that could be salvaged (anakin slaughtering the sand people, count Dooku leaving the Jedi) that’s muddied down by boring dead spots and sand.

 

[umichigan10]

You know when clones came out and the defenders of ep 1 said:
"The next movie will make it better..."

Well, it didn't...neither did Christensen's dominated episode 3.

I think that jedi was just made a better movie...if you watch them all in sequence...or even jumbled...it holds up more with each new release.

So I would have the first 3, rogue 1 ontop in order of preference...7 significantly down...the 8 well below that...then 3, 2 and 1 in the cellar

I just feel Jedi is really lazily made. Another Death Star!?!!? Is a worse sin than star killer base in TFA, and the Ewoks are...ya know.

That’s not to say I think revenge of the sith is great, but it’s more salvageable than the other two in that trilogy for sure

 

[SWRdtWD]

I just feel Jedi is really lazily made. Another Death Star!?!!? Is a worse sin than star killer base in TFA, and the Ewoks are...ya know.

That’s not to say I think revenge of the sith is great, but it’s more salvageable than the other two in that trilogy for sure

It's flawed...but the tone, feel, texture was pure Star Wars.

It was an update from ANH...version 2.0. Probably why 7 grates me so. You've got more Reboots than sequels...