Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Reaction and Discussion *CONTAINS SPOILERS*

[MickeyMinnieMom]

Change of subject...how's TLJ doing at the box office? You would assume fantastic considering how good it is...

Struggling for 2nd place opening in China is the last I saw on twitter... didn’t click the link to read as I was rushing around... no idea how TFA did on that metric...

 

[jknezek]

Change of subject...how's TLJ doing at the box office? You would assume fantastic considering how good it is...

It's not doing badly unless you look at China. Empire lagged New Hope and RoJ on an inflation basis, Attack of the Clones lagged I and III on an inflation basis, it's hard to be the middle kid. But it was the top domestic movie of 2017 without the run even finishing and it will earn over $600MM domestically. It's kind of hard to call that anything but a smashing success. Way ahead of Rogue One, which hurts since I think that was a much better movie. A few pages back I looked at where it will fall on a "tickets sold" basis and I think it came 5th or 6th of the 9 Star Wars movies and somewhere around 30th in all time domestic movies for tickets sold.

There are no grounds to say it hasn't been a box office smash.

 

[jknezek]

Struggling for 2nd place opening in China is the last I saw on twitter... didn’t click the link to read as I was rushing around... no idea how TFA did on that metric...

Star Wars has never really done well in China. Even Rogue One which used some famous Chinese heritage actors didn't do great. I'm not sure any of the OT was released in China at production, but I know A New Hope wasn't. So the following and mythos just never sunk in. TFA is doing well in Europe where Star Wars has always been popular.

 

[SWRdtWD]

It's not doing badly unless you look at China. Empire lagged New Hope and RoJ on an inflation basis, Attack of the Clones lagged I and III on an inflation basis, it's hard to be the middle kid. But it was the top domestic movie of 2017 without the run even finishing and it will earn over $600MM domestically. It's kind of hard to call that anything but a smashing success. Way ahead of Rogue One, which hurts since I think that was a much better movie. A few pages back I looked at where it will fall on a "tickets sold" basis and I think it came 5th or 6th of the 9 Star Wars movies and somewhere around 30th in all time domestic movies for tickets sold.

There are no grounds to say it hasn't been a box office smash.

I'm watching it very closely...

However I don't think the original trilogy or the prequels are a valid comparison.

TPM and clones were panned...this movie was not except by fan sites.

ANH ran in multiplex theaters for two years...in the era before cable tv and VHS...a comparison to even empires gross doesn't quite hold.

If TLJ stops at say $1.3 bil...how does that translate to the franchise and Disney's future moves?

 

[jknezek]

I'm watching it very closely...

However I don't think the original trilogy or the prequels are a valid comparison.

TPM and clones were panned...this movie was not except by fan sites.

ANH ran in multiplex theaters for two years...in the era before cable tv and VHS...a comparison to even empires gross doesn't quite hold.

If TLJ stops at say $1.3 bil...how does that translate to the franchise and Disney's future moves?

It converts to a money making machine. There is no way around that. Of all movies ever released in the U.S. it projects around the 30th most tickets sold. That's massive. And if you consider only movies made in the VHS age and beyond, it would be a lot higher up that list. Like 17 or so of the top 30 by tickets sold were pre-1980 ish. By that measure TLJ will be about the 14th or so most tickets sold since the home movie era started. It's a hit. They may have hoped for more, but what they got is massive.

 

[jade1]

They may have hoped for more, but what they got is massive.

Agreed, and since 2000 (when pretty much everybody got a lot more to do-with Internet and cell phones arriving) it appears it will be 4th all time adjusted to TFA/Avatar/J World.

There was nothing else to do in 1977, and not much hope of ever seeing it again.

 

[umichigan10]

The big issue with this movie is it attempts to shift the foundation of the Star Wars away from the Oringinal Trilogy. Which is somewhat expected, I mean the original cast wasn't getting any younger at the time of filming so obviously they had to do something. Instead this movie virtually destroys the old foundation and then begins bulldozing the new foundation that Abrams tried to build. Han? Gone. Luke, reduced back to a whiny loser and gone. Leia, silly character after the flying through space but sadly gone for the next movie. No Vader obviously. So really the only thing left from the Originals are a couple of Droids and Chewie, all with a combined 5 minutes of screen time in TLJ. The new foundation? Poe is a failed Mutineer who got a large portion of the rebellion killed. Finn is back to being a bumbling sidekick who fails at everything he tries and gets captured. Rose is a jealous vandal. That brings us to Rey.

Rey is a curious hybrid of a Mary Sue and a Deus Ex Machina. This is sloppy story telling and a bad way to build up to the next movie. Why? Rey has never failed....... ever. She has never lost a hand, never been frozen in Carbonite, or never been captured by Jabba the Hutt and forced to wear a gold bikini(sadly). In fact, She has faced the best the First Order has and come out on top and unscathed.......twice. More importantly grumpy old Yoda couldn't find any fault with her. It poses the question: How does Rey even measure success if she has never failed at anything(as far as we have seen). She is like Superman in the absence of Kryptonite. It is not very engaging story telling.

So this is something I mentioned a while back here but think it’s prudent to bring up again.

When the originals ended and there was a 30 year gap between them and this trilogy, people kindafilled in the gaps with what happened, either with the EU or on their own. People wrote the story themselves. Now you can make a legit argument whether it was wise with all that literature out there to make this trilogy when it was, or to skip ahead say 70 years and start fresh. But they did what they did.

The thing with the original cast is it had to end. Harrison Ford literally asked to get cut out, Luke isn’t getting any younger, and Carrie Fisher literally died after filming for this ended. So one way or another decisions had to be made.

My point being is you’re with in the right to despise these movies, that’s your decision. Im just saying that these movies needed to go their own way, and cI think love it or hate it TLJ made the trilogy it’s own.

ETA: sorry if I retread things you may have said regarding the original cast and such, glanced at this at work and responded in kind

 

[jknezek]

So this is something I mentioned a while back here but think it’s prudent to bring up again.

When the originals ended and there was a 30 year gap between them and this trilogy, people kindafilled in the gaps with what happened, either with the EU or on their own. People wrote the story themselves. Now you can make a legit argument whether it was wise with all that literature out there to make this trilogy when it was, or to skip ahead say 70 years and start fresh. But they did what they did.

The thing with the original cast is it had to end. Harrison Ford literally asked to get cut out, Luke isn’t getting any younger, and Carrie Fisher literally died after filming for this ended. So one way or another decisions had to be made.

My point being is you’re with in the right to despise these movies, that’s your decision. Im just saying that these movies needed to go their own way, and I think love it or hate it TLJ made the trilogy it’s own.

It's funny, because one of my 2 major issues with TLJ is how they treated Luke. I agree the story had to go its own way. But going it's own way did not mean they needed to turn Luke into a coward. That's going back and rewriting his character, or at least evolving his character to essentially the opposite of the OT. It was appalling and basically ruined the film for me.

So yeah, go your own way, but don't ruin what was.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Other than the Death Star stuff...which is cheesy...Luke clearly slowed down and paid his dues in the other movies...it was handled perfectly...

I agree that Luke isn't a great comparison - he really doesn't do much in A New Hope and then he gets some training from Yoda in Empire (we can argue if he was there for 2 days or 2 months, but it is something) - and he loses his big fight to Vader. It's only in Jedi after (supposedly) a few years of study (self for much of it, a bit more with Yoda likely) that he becomes a bada$$

I think Anakin is a decent comp for the machinery stuff as he was creating droids with no training and then could fly in a podrace even though no other human was able to but he as a kid could, etc. - so maybe that fits with Rey also being Force created like Anakin was

The lightsaber stuff is a bit much to be - though I think it was worse in TFA as she had literally no training as was able to beat Kylo (who had years of training) and even if you want to say she could because she is so darn strong in the force, even Finn who just picked one up for the first time and (at least as far as we know) isn't Force sensitive was able to hold his own with Kylo for a bit

 

[KaptKaveman]

You don't like the movie so don't want to give it any credit, those that do are willing to give it some credit. So be it

I don't like the movie but I give it a lot of credit for being the best looking and sounding movie of all the previous ones. Just a huge missed opportunity in just about every other facet.

Concerning the money it is making, it seems to me when stacked against other non Star Wars movies its a smashing success. I think it might be a bit of a let down when compared against TFA. Given the mixed reception of TLJ it might make me lower expectation for episode 9 if I was Disney.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

It's funny, because one of my 2 major issues with TLJ is how they treated Luke. I agree the story had to go its own way. But going it's own way did not mean they needed to turn Luke into a coward. That's going back and rewriting his character, or at least evolving his character to essentially the opposite of the OT. It was appalling and basically ruined the film for me.

So yeah, go your own way, but don't ruin what was.

and see, I liked the direction they went. 30 years had passed, people change a lot and he had grown cocky and then when he saw the dark side rising freaked out a bit and then felt he was responsible for fully creating Kylo ... so I think it makes sense it would sort of "break" him. Plus, retreating and hiding when things go wrong is sort of what Judi Masters do (see: Yoda and Kinobi, Obi Wan). For him to be the exact same and not evolve seems kinda boring to me

That said, I do get why people didn't like it (especially those that waiting 30 years to see Luke kick some butt on on the big screen again) and maybe there was a happy medium

 

[sachilles]

I think you must also consider that TFA was the first one after a long hiatus. This is the third Christmas in a row for a Star Wars movie to be released. Enjoying the success it has had, is not a minor accomplishment considering its not new to the public conscious this year.

 

[jknezek]

and see, I liked the direction they went. 30 years had passed, people change a lot and he had grown cocky and then when he saw the dark side rising freaked out a bit and then felt he was responsible for fully creating Kylo ... so I think it makes sense it would sort of "break" him. Plus, retreating and hiding when things go wrong is sort of what Judi Masters do (see: Yoda and Kinobi, Obi Wan). For him to be the exact same and not evolve seems kinda boring to me

That said, I do get why people didn't like it (especially those that waiting 30 years to see Luke kick some butt on on the big screen again) and maybe there was a happy medium

I didn't really want him to kick butt. It was clear each movie was supposed to eliminate one OT character and it was clear this was Luke's turn. I didn't even need to see him be a bad @ss anymore. All I wanted was him to try and fix his mistake. Even in the very end, he didn't try to fix his mistake, he just copped out and killed himself giving the 12 remaining people a chance to run away. It still left the galaxy with the problem he created in Kylo Ren. It wasn't Luke. He didn't need to train Rey either. I was fine with him believing the Jedi needed to end. But he needed to face his problem and try to fix it, most likely being chopped down in the process. I'm sure we'll get a Force ghost to try and fix this f up in the next movie, but that doesn't excuse Rian Johnson at all.

As to the rest, Yoda tried to fix his mistake and Palpy wiped the floor with him. Then he tried again by training Luke. Ben returned to the Rebellion as soon as it called. They might have hid for various reasons, but when called upon they did their duty because they weren't cowards. Luke, thanks to Rian Johnson, will always be a coward in the end. It was unforgiveable to me and I really think the split you see in the movie among long term fans revolves around that betrayal.

If you are fine with it, I can see how the movie was good. But I'm not fine with it, and that's why I'm upset about the movie. The other complaint I have is more structural about the filmmaking itself than anything else.

 

[STLstone]

I agree that Luke isn't a great comparison - he really doesn't do much in A New Hope and then he gets some training from Yoda in Empire (we can argue if he was there for 2 days or 2 months, but it is something) - and he loses his big fight to Vader. It's only in Jedi after (supposedly) a few years of study (self for much of it, a bit more with Yoda likely) that he becomes a bada$$

I think Anakin is a decent comp for the machinery stuff as he was creating droids with no training and then could fly in a podrace even though no other human was able to but he as a kid could, etc. - so maybe that fits with Rey also being Force created like Anakin was

The lightsaber stuff is a bit much to be - though I think it was worse in TFA as she had literally no training as was able to beat Kylo (who had years of training) and even if you want to say she could because she is so darn strong in the force, even Finn who just picked one up for the first time and (at least as far as we know) isn't Force sensitive was able to hold his own with Kylo for a bit

Like many people, I'm not going back and reading this whole thread. So forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but in TFA, Kylo was shot with Chewbacca's gun - a gun that was firmly established as being very powerful, beyond a normal blaster, earlier in the movie. He also had to fight Finn first, before Rey.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I didn't really want him to kick butt. It was clear each movie was supposed to eliminate one OT character and it was clear this was Luke's turn. I didn't even need to see him be a bad @ss anymore. All I wanted was him to try and fix his mistake. Even in the very end, he didn't try to fix his mistake, he just copped out and killed himself giving the 12 remaining people a chance to run away. It still left the galaxy with the problem he created in Kylo Ren. It wasn't Luke. He didn't need to train Rey either. I was fine with him believing the Jedi needed to end. But he needed to face his problem and try to fix it, most likely being chopped down in the process. I'm sure we'll get a Force ghost to try and fix this f up in the next movie, but that doesn't excuse Rian Johnson at all.

As to the rest, Yoda tried to fix his mistake and Palpy wiped the floor with him. Then he tried again by training Luke. Ben returned to the Rebellion as soon as it called. They might have hid for various reasons, but when called upon they did their duty because they weren't cowards. Luke, thanks to Rian Johnson, will always be a coward in the end. It was unforgiveable to me and I really think the split you see in the movie among long term fans revolves around that betrayal.

If you are fine with it, I can see how the movie was good. But I'm not fine with it, and that's why I'm upset about the movie. The other complaint I have is more structural about the filmmaking itself than anything else.

Thanks for clarifying and if I am reading this correctly, the issue is not really with Luke leaving initially but more that he didn't eventually realize the situation for what it really was and come back and truly try to fix it, in person, not just as a projection and then just going into the Force and leaving the rest behind (so he did what he could to let others escape, but that isn't really enough to set them up to succeed, just survive). If I have that right then I can totally understand that and it makes sense. I've seen a lot of people complain about Luke changing at all and leaving at all and stuff like that, (but doesn't seem like you are in that camp)

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Like many people, I'm not going back and reading this whole thread. So forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but in TFA, Kylo was shot with Chewbacca's gun - a gun that was firmly established as being very powerful, beyond a normal blaster, earlier in the movie. He also had to fight Finn first, before Rey.

That is true - he was wounded (though also seemed to draw strength from the dark side from that wound, why he kept beating on it) but it is a fiar point

And I didn't necessarily have an issue with it - just compared to TLJ where she did have training and more practice, etc. if I was to have an issue with either it would be TFA

 

[jknezek]

Like many people, I'm not going back and reading this whole thread. So forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but in TFA, Kylo was shot with Chewbacca's gun - a gun that was firmly established as being very powerful, beyond a normal blaster, earlier in the movie. He also had to fight Finn first, before Rey.

Finn has no Force powers. Or none we've seen anyway. If you watched any of the Star Wars canon that comes before, you realize that someone with no Force powers is like stepping on an ant to a Jedi or Sith unless they have something like Mandalorian armor laying around. Injured or not, Finn should have been toasted in seconds.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I don't like the movie but I give it a lot of credit for being the best looking and sounding movie of all the previous ones. Just a huge missed opportunity in just about every other facet.

Concerning the money it is making, it seems to me when stacked against other non Star Wars movies its a smashing success. I think it might be a bit of a let down when compared against TFA. Given the mixed reception of TLJ it might make me lower expectation for episode 9 if I was Disney.

By "credit" I meant credit to the explanations for some of the issues you had with Rey - if you had a positive view of the movie overall I think you would me more apt to accept them rather than dismiss them

As for the money, it is the middle film which usually does worse than the first so not surprised it is a behind TFA ... as for Episode IX I think a lot comes down to how well it ties things up - if it is a fitting end then I think it will do fine, if it doesn't do a good job, then I think it will be lower than TLJ

 

[PrincessWithABlaster]

Hmm... I don't think this is completely accurately. A bladed weapon like a sword is a comparable tool to a lightsaber. A staff isn't.

Fair enough. I was being a little snarky. But if she had the brawn to swing a staff effectively, I think it’s at least conceivable that she could effectively swing a lightsaber - at least better than someone without that background.

The lightsaber stuff is a bit much to be - though I think it was worse in TFA as she had literally no training as was able to beat Kylo (who had years of training) and even if you want to say she could because she is so darn strong in the force, even Finn who just picked one up for the first time and (at least as far as we know) isn't Force sensitive was able to hold his own with Kylo for a bit

I’m starting to think that the answer is that Kylo ain’t so hot with a lightsaber. Yes, very strong with the force but undisciplined- especially in TFA. He was all over the place. If the above argument is true that a blade takes some technical skill and finesse, perhaps he was not the lightersaber wielder we’ve seen with other strong Force users. It seems reasonable that different people would have different strengths with it. Leia could obviously sense people she cared about from far away, but others may not have that talent without training. I agree that Rey had a few too many talents that came without training in TFA but I think some of them are defendable.

Concerning the money it is making, it seems to me when stacked against other non Star Wars movies its a smashing success. I think it might be a bit of a let down when compared against TFA. Given the mixed reception of TLJ it might make me lower expectation for episode 9 if I was Disney.

I think it has to be called an unmitigated success objectively but I agree that Disney is probably at least a little disappointed. I read that they were hoping for a bigger opening than TFA in part because they were expecting to get a bump from the fact that people knew it was Carrie Fisher’s last movie.

 

[STLstone]

Thanks for clarifying and if I am reading this correctly, the issue is not really with Luke leaving initially but more that he didn't eventually realize the situation for what it really was and come back and truly try to fix it, in person, not just as a projection and then just going into the Force and leaving the rest behind (so he did what he could to let others escape, but that isn't really enough to set them up to succeed, just survive). If I have that right then I can totally understand that and it makes sense. I've seen a lot of people complain about Luke changing at all and leaving at all and stuff like that, (but doesn't seem like you are in that camp)

Luke basically did the exact same thing Obi Wan did in A New Hope. He distracted Vader and his forces so the others could escape. Then, he "gave up," becoming one with the force.

Unlike Obi Wan, Luke didn't do this "in person," but all of the strength it took cost him his life.

This wasn't meant as an argument directed at you because I understand you're just retelling someone else's opinion, not your own.