Standby lines- before and after

[wisblue]

Wis, if I had a dollar for every time I've read a post saying that Legacy was lousy because of the zig zag and you no longer have to do it with FP+, I would be a rich woman. I am not claiming there is no zig zagging with either legacy of FP+. But I don't agree assertion that FP+ eliminated zig zagging because it didn't. You may want to change the terminology, but the action of skipping a ride because the SB is too long and returning later, is still Zig Zagging.

I can't control what other people say.

But, if I had a dollar for everyone who said that they never zig zagged to get FPs, I'd be at least as rich as you. Certainly you have heard people say that if they got to a ride and the line was too long they would get a FP to ride it later.

These generalities flow both ways, so I wish people would stop saying that one side or the other is inherently more reasonable.

I also wish that people could get over the past and focus on the best ways to tour with FP+ instead of complaining about how much better they think things used to be.

 

[Cormoran]

Not when the attractions are literally 30 seconds apart.

So when legacy attractions were "30 seconds" apart that wasn't zig zagging either?

 

[Dis703]

Not for us. If you tour effectively, you don't zigzag.

I think I was pretty clear in my post. We didn't GO to IASW to ride it. We walked past it- had the line been short we would have ridden it.

It wasn't short- the next ride we passed that had a short line was the Carousel. We didn't go to it- we passed by it on the way to wherever we were going.

Later, when we were in that area to do something, the line was short at iasw. We rode it.

We don't head to any specific ride, walk past short lines and not ride.
We are generally guided by an upcoming fp or a show we want to see, a meal we're going to eat etc.

We don't zigzag hunting for rides to ride.

I don't presume to think my experience is the only one to be had. I'm quite sure making the choices you describe, your experience was different.

This is us as well. Our touring style has us in certain areas of the park for sections of the day. We don't run from one side of the park to ride one ride. But if we are in Fantasyland for example and walking by HM on our way to Frontierland and the line is long we skip it. Then the next time we are in that vicinity we will take a peak at the wait time and if more reasonable we ride it. If it's never short, we skip it or FP for another day. But that rarely happens. Last trip we hardly needed our FP.

 

[Hokie2000]

So when legacy attractions were "30 seconds" apart that wasn't zig zagging either?

Are you saying that it wasn't zig-zagging if you pulled a FP, then stayed in the same area to ride other rides until your window opened? If so I completely agree with you. I just don't think that's how it went for every person, at every park, with every FP used. Plenty of people traversed FW for Soarin FPs, or "ran" over to TSMM for a time too far in the future to stay in the area, or maybe headed over to BTMRR or Splash when their window opened up, even if they weren't currently in the area. It goes without saying that not everyone zigzagged all the time w/ FP-, but to say that it never happened? I don't get that.

I've skipped over rides because of longer-than-I-wanted SB lines before FP+ and after, that really hasn't changed. The change is that I no longer go to a ride for the sole purpose of pulling a FP, then come back later to the same ride to use it. Whether that change is a big deal/positive/negative is up to the individual user.

As for the original question, January of 2014 we didn't see a noticeable increase in SB wait times. January of 2015 some of them were longer. It was more crowded - our weekends were Marathon weekend and the MLK holiday weekend. So I have a hard time drawing any real conclusions from my personal experience. Josh at EasyWDW collects enough data to support the claim that SB waits have increased and I believe him. I don't think it's the end of the world, but then I haven't been fortunate enough to walk on to all these rides in the pre-FP+ days. There's been many a time that POTC, HM, JC, Barnstormer and even the Magic Carpets had long lines that we bypassed.

 

[Cormoran]

Are you saying that it wasn't zig-zagging if you pulled a FP, then stayed in the same area to ride other rides until your window opened? If so I completely agree with you. I just don't think that's how it went for every person, at every park, with every FP used. Plenty of people traversed FW for Soarin FPs, or "ran" over to TSMM for a time too far in the future to stay in the area, or maybe headed over to BTMRR or Splash when their window opened up, even if they weren't currently in the area. It goes without saying that not everyone zigzagged all the time w/ FP-, but to say that it never happened? I don't get that.

I've skipped over rides because of longer-than-I-wanted SB lines before FP+ and after, that really hasn't changed. The change is that I no longer go to a ride for the sole purpose of pulling a FP, then come back later to the same ride to use it. Whether that change is a big deal/positive/negative is up to the individual user.

As for the original question, January of 2014 we didn't see a noticeable increase in SB wait times. January of 2015 some of them were longer. It was more crowded - our weekends were Marathon weekend and the MLK holiday weekend. So I have a hard time drawing any real conclusions from my personal experience. Josh at EasyWDW collects enough data to support the claim that SB waits have increased and I believe him. I don't think it's the end of the world, but then I haven't been fortunate enough to walk on to all these rides in the pre-FP+ days. There's been many a time that POTC, HM, JC, Barnstormer and even the Magic Carpets had long lines that we bypassed.

I never claimed either way. As I said, FP plus proponents claim that with legacy you had to zig zag and now they don't. I think you have just as much or as little with both systems.

 

[cakebaker]

I also wish that people could get over the past and focus on the best ways to tour with FP+ instead of complaining about how much better they think things used to be.

I agree- paper fp is gone. Lamenting its loss really doesn't do much to improve your current experience.

 

[Luckybee]

That has not been claimed.
What is disputed is that the fault lies with FP+ and claims that these waits did not exist prior and this currently are due to FP+.

We can agree to disagree and you can choose to believe what you would like to believe. I know with previous trips we would not have anywhere need the wait times that I posted, and it isn't "faulty memory" as suggested in other threads. We had very short or virtually walk on for most secondary attractions prior to fp+ on most of our previous trips.

 

[MrInfinity]

As I said, FP plus proponents claim that with legacy you had to zig zag and now they don't. I think you have just as much or as little with both systems.

This is not relevant to the poll. But I'll try to clarify just cuz I think you're crossing two different things. In pulling FP- tickets, yes you had to "zigzag" -- as in, you had to go to a ride, to pull a ticket, then come back later.

In both cases, it made sense to observe lines where you are for purposes of deciding whether to ride the secondary attractions, or anything you don't have a fast pass to. So in both cases this other type of zig zagging applies. I call this more "choosing whether to ride something you're next to".

There was definitely, in my experience, less walking around the parks to do the same number of rides, and much of this I attribute directly to FP+ and good planning. It changed a lot of our mentality from being in one line... and thinking about what FP ticket we wanted to go pull next... to knowing we already had tickets and nowhere we had to go, so we rode things locally. Less walking. This is the zigzag that is cut out. Under FP+, there is never a time when I'd be in the Space Mtn line, but thinking of whether we should go pull a PP or BTM ticket next. We would just enjoy the things around Space Mtn, knowing we had our FPs to PP and BTM already pulled.

 

[Luckybee]

This isn't the first time this specific debate has flared up, and I'm sure it won't be the last.

Between the studies done by both Touring Plans and easywdw, Josh's general comments about wait times and overall crowd levels, looking at actual posted wait times on different dates (which you can do with Touring Plans), and sorting through the various personal observations on this board, there doesn't seem to be any question that standby wait times on at least SOME attractions are generally longer at least SOME of the time. The disagreements are more over HOW MUCH longer these wait times are at comparable times of the day with comparable crowd levels, and how much those longer wait times will affect a guest's experience in a park. There is also disagreement over how much of any increases are a result of FP+ or overall higher attendance levels. Most likely it is some combination of the two.

I do want to mention one specific thing that you have to keep in mind if you are going to use Touring Plans' average observed wait times. TP develops its crowd levels by evaluating wait times at certain attractions between 10 AM and 5 PM. If I understand their explanations and definitions correctly, their observed average wait time for a ride for a day is also the average time between 10 AM and 5 PM. In other words, that average completely ignores the wait times from park opening until 10 AM and from 5 PM until park closing. Because peak wait times typically occur in the middle of the day, the wait times before and after the 10-5 measuring period are likely to be lower than those averages.

This highlights the importance of efficient touring to avoiding those longer lines. Someone who enters the park at 10 AM and leaves at 5 PM (or earlier) is running themselves head on into the longest standby wait times of the day. Someone who makes efficient use of early and/or late hours and their FPs can avoid most or all of these longer lines pretty easily.

See those times work for me. I picked the day we were at the park not some random day. And we were there within that time. And we would have been within the same time frame on previous trips when we didn't see the same lines even though the park seemed to me to be equally as crowded.
Im comparing apples with apples, not apples with oranges. We have always tended to go to the parks in the afternoons and evenings, We've done rope drop only once. I can compare only with what I've personally experienced in the past.

 

[Luckybee]

I also wish that people could get over the past and focus on the best ways to tour with FP+ instead of complaining about how much better they think things used to be.

The problem with that is that the title of the post is "Standby lines-before and after". Seems to me to be pretty rudimentary that it means you're going to have a discussion of the differences between the two. But who knows ? Since there are a few on here who are apparently capable of twisting the English language maybe it doesn't mean that at all....lol

 

[BugsDaddy]

I can't control what other people say.

But, if I had a dollar for everyone who said that they never zig zagged to get FPs, I'd be at least as rich as you. Certainly you have heard people say that if they got to a ride and the line was too long they would get a FP to ride it later.

These generalities flow both ways, so I wish people would stop saying that one side or the other is inherently more reasonable.

I also wish that people could get over the past and focus on the best ways to tour with FP+ instead of complaining about how much better they think things used to be.

I agree with this. Some people liked the old, some like the new, some liked neither, some like both. Its all irrelevant. They are never going back to the old system again. They may make some changes to the new system but it will never be what it was. The most productive use of one's time is to figure out how to make the new system work for them and if that is impossible for you to do, use the power of how you choose to spend your vacation dollars as a referendum for change.

 

[Cormoran]

.


I agree- paper fp is gone. Lamenting its loss really doesn't do much to improve your current experience.

I never said this. You are actually quoting Wisblue,not me.

 

[Luckybee]

For example this date you chose to show the wait times:
1) According to Josh, the busiest day of the week to visit the MK
2) They had added EMH - avoid EMH parks, except during EMH itself.
3)The MSEP was only on specific days, this was one of them
4)They had extended hours in general- always adds to the crowd level

His final comments on visiting that day: "While it is possible to have a decent day here if you arrive early and tour efficiently, there are much less crowded days to visit during the week."

If one chose to go that day, and didn't tour efficiently, you'd probably see long lines.

As I said in other posts....that was the day we were there. The point was that fuzzy . or infinity...stated that he didn't see those waits, and was suggesting that those waits didn't exist. Previous trips we didn't see those waits even on MSEP and emh days. Those things did exist prior to fp+

 

[finedice]

Alright... 2 pages is enough. FP- was not underutilized in the past (maybe differently dispersed though). The FP machines used to get covered, which means that they "sold out". FP+ is bound to increase SB waits on attractions that didn't previously have them, but it nudges you in other directions at the time - which disperses crowds throughout the park better (in theory). I have yet to see, but will in a few weeks... As I research and look at it, it looks like we might even be able to accomplish more than before in the same amount of time, by employing a different strategy.

As an added benefit - I can enjoy the parks at very different times that I would have had to in the past. I never before would have gone to DHS at 4:30 in the afternoon, ridden all the rides, seen a show or two, had a TS ADR, and caught Fantasmic! at 8:30 in the past. I argue that it is in the strategy, planning and execution, not in FP+ changes that people are seeing differences. Always the zig and the zag!

When we refer to zig and zag - we are talking about zigging when the crowds are zagging - not necessarily "zig-zagging" ourselves - (misperception).

 

[cakebaker]

I never said this. You are actually quoting Wisblue,not me.

Sorry about that- I've seen that with a couple of other posters today- I'm not sure what's going on there but I went back and corrected it thru edit.

 

[cakebaker]

As I said in other posts....that was the day we were there. The point was that fuzzy . or infinity...stated that he didn't see those waits, and was suggesting that those waits didn't exist. Previous trips we didn't see those waits even on MSEP and emh days. Those things did exist prior to fp+

Yes, I'm not saying you picked that day just because it was a bad day- I'm saying that day is not indicative of how it always is. It was, for many reasons, a day one should expect long waits due to crowds.

 

[wisblue]

The problem with that is that the title of the post is "Standby lines-before and after". Seems to me to be pretty rudimentary that it means you're going to have a discussion of the differences between the two. But who knows ? Since there are a few on here who are apparently capable of twisting the English language maybe it doesn't mean that at all....lol

My comment was in response to somebody else who dragged the topic away from standby wait times to the issue of zigzagging around the park.

Maybe you should address your concerns about staying on topic to that poster.

 

[MrInfinity]

As I said in other posts....that was the day we were there. The point was that fuzzy . or infinity...stated that he didn't see those waits, and was suggesting that those waits didn't exist. Previous trips we didn't see those waits even on MSEP and emh days. Those things did exist prior to fp+

I did indeed say I did not see those 30-min+ waits, and I even quoted the ride wait times this morning, in which they were 5-20 min. In no case did I suggest longer lines didn't exist. In fact I encouraged others to share their experiences, and tried to keep this thread to ppl telling about whether they found long or short waits. I even said several times I thought waits were varied. Some were longer, some were shorter, but by general good touring, just like always, you could ride the rides when the lines are shorter.

Waits DID exist prior to FP+. Ppl like to talk about that time like it was walk-on for everything, all the time. Again, if you or Cormoran saw that, great for you. But I definitely did wait over 20 min for many things, pre-FP+. HM is a good example. SE is another. Both of these had long SB waits pre FP+. I waited longer for them in both 2010 and 2012 than in 2014. Not saying your experience was otherwise, but this thread is about telling about our personal experience -- not saying the others' is invalid.

I happened to have done just fine w FP+. I got on as much in a typical day, with what felt like more time to spare, and a less rushed manner. This included riding headliners most of the day, secondaries in between, and tons of other stuff too. That's my actual experience. Yours may not be similar. I make no attempt to say yours was like mine.

EDIT. I quoted Figment, LWTL, Nemo, Mission, and Seas this morning. All were 5-20 min. Now, 5:30pm on a Sunday - still, all 5-20 min. Figment 5, LWTL 0, Nemo 15, Space 20, SE 15. I think this is pretty clear that this morning things were under 30, now they're still under 30. You would be hard pressed to be at Epcot today - a Sunday - and come to the forums and claim lines were long, or that these SB lines were killed because of the addition of FP+. They are pretty awesome.

 

[Luckybee]

I did indeed say I did not see those 30-min+ waits, and I even quoted the ride wait times this morning, in which they were 5-20 min. In no case did I suggest longer lines didn't exist. In fact I encouraged others to share their experiences, and tried to keep this thread to ppl telling about whether they found long or short waits. I even said several times I thought waits were varied. Some were longer, some were shorter, but by general good touring, just like always, you could ride the rides when the lines are shorter.

Waits DID exist prior to FP+. Ppl like to talk about that time like it was walk-on for everything, all the time. Again, if you or Cormoran saw that, great for you. But I definitely did wait over 20 min for many things, pre-FP+. HM is a good example. SE is another. Both of these had long SB waits pre FP+. I waited longer for them in both 2010 and 2012 than in 2014. Not saying your experience was otherwise, but this thread is about telling about our personal experience -- not saying the others' is invalid.

I posted "I know you keep saying that you didn't notice a difference in wait times but I'm still trying to figure that out given that you were at D the same time as we were(and if I recall correctly you were even at MK one of the same days as us) and compared to previous years in the same periods the differences in the lines that we saw was huge (both the lines and the differences) . Never ever ever ever ever had we had to wait 30+ minutes for secondary attractions in low season and there were more than just a couple that had posted wait times like this. Think what I may do next trip is take photos of the wait times so as to leave no doubt"

You responded by saying "
See, I don't get this either. I'm kind of with Cake here. I just did not see the 30+ minute waits. I'd say 30 min was the most we waited for anything. And I remember several long lines from earlier years. Nemo (Epcot) had pretty long lines in the past. They actually used the switchbacks in the entry. In recent times, just not. Everyone should report their own experiences. I really did not feel that lines were overall significantly longer."

If ever I've seen a perfunctory "encouraged others to share their experiences" this would be it.

 

[Luckybee]

My comment was in response to somebody else who dragged the topic away from standby wait times to the issue of zigzagging around the park.

Maybe you should address your concerns about staying on topic to that poster.

I don't have concerns about staying on topic. I was addressing your post wherein you said " I also wish that people could get over the past and focus on the best ways to tour with FP+ instead of complaining about how much better they think things used to be" and I suggested to you that this was the topic and therefore you should expect that people WILL be talking about how much better things used to be esp when the poster is asking for a comparison of standby before fp+ and after.