Standard Rate for Renting Points... and commercial/professional renters...

[Doctor P]

I disagree. The defination of commercial for taxes and the like is the legal definition of commercial. The contract is a legal document. If this ever goes to court, you can bet your booties that the legal definition of commercial will be in play.

Bingo, crisi. That is the definition of commercial that the courts generally rely upon for guidance and would almost certainly be the rule of law in the absence of explicit statutory or regulatory guidance to the contrary.

 

[waltfan1957]

With all due respect Walt I think you are confused with what I was doing. For that I apologize. I should have phrased it differently.

What I was trying to get accross is that most Timeshares allow renting and even do that for the membership in many cases.

I was simply wondering if you feel DVC is an exception?

You state at the end that DVC's opinion is the only important one. We finally agree. Why don't you call DVC or email them for a definition of commercial renting and post it all here for us to read.

no confusion here in what you were doing, other timeshare i dont care about its you that keeps mentioning them? DISNEY has made their intentions clear on this subject so why would I need to email them

 

[dumbo71]

no confusion here in what you were doing, other timeshare i dont care about its you that keeps mentioning them? DISNEY has made their intentions clear on this subject so why would I need to email them

I'm glad you find them clear. The basis for this whole discussion is the ambiguity in the phrase "commercial" and DVC's lack of a clear defintion.

Well, at least 2 posters seem to have a definition.

 

[waltfan1957]

I'm glad you find them clear. You must be a little brighter than the rest of us because the basis for this whole discussion is the ambiguity in the phrase "commercial" and DVC's lack of a clear defintion.

Well, at least 2 posters seem to have a definition.

I read one of your previous posts

"That lattitude should make those that are truly commercial very nervous"

you seem to agree with whoever is nearest to your opinion.

as for the sarcasm regarding me being a little brighter and the 2 posters comment, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit,

I cant engage in battle of wits with an unarmed man

 

[Doctor P]

For a timeshare even renting one day is potentially a taxable event. While it would likely be discussed, they would not be one and the same from a DVC standpoint.

You are confusing two different concepts in the tax law. All you are talking about is determining whether the rental income is taxable. The issue is whether it is a commercial activity which determines another set of rules, regulations, and reporting requirements as well as where the income gets reported. The definition of whether something is commercial activity is a much more general concept.

 

[rinkwide]

...most Timeshares allow renting and even do that for the membership in many cases.

I was simply wondering if you feel DVC is an exception?...

Well now, there's your problem; You need to keep in mind that DVC is a Vacation Club, not a timeshare.

 

[dumbo71]

I read one of your previous posts

"That lattitude should make those that are truly commercial very nervous"

you seem to agree with whoever is nearest to your opinion.

as for the sarcasm regarding me being a little brighter and the 2 posters comment, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit,

I cant engage in battle of wits with an unarmed man

Sorry, Walt.

I edited that post because it came off the wrong way.

You are entitled to your opinion and we'll leave it at that.

 

[Sammie]

Well now, there's your problem; You need to keep in mind that DVC is a Vacation Club, not a timeshare.

I am sure that is a sarcastic comment to mine.

However I will concede that DVC in the larger form is a time-share but certainly not a traditional time-share. It is a vacation club and vacation clubs while being under the large grouping of time-share are different.

Differences being that one does not purchase a particular unit, or a certain week. The renting situation as pointed out by Dumbo is very different. Disney is never going to rent the units for members.

There are many differences which is why the industry differentiates between time-share and vacation club.

I am sure with your vast knowledge of the industry you know the difference, yet instead of simply pointing that out, you poke fun. Which contributes to my comment about the "in your face attitude" of those pro-renting.

I can always respect knowledge, and will gladly admit when I am wrong. Humor at other's expense is not actually funny.

 

[crisi]

For a timeshare even renting one day is potentially a taxable event. While it would likely be discussed, they would not be one and the same from a DVC standpoint.

Whether DVC can restrict commericial renting has nothing to do with tax law. It has to do with contract law and business law. However, the definition of commerical is the same in all three cases. If you make a profit, its commercial.

Disney can rent rooms through CRO on a non-commerical basis - as long as they don't book a profit. Not doing that is easy - they transfer any profit over to offset dues. They have no profit and therefore aren't commercial.

On the other hand, if Joe Doe has 300 points, uses 150 of them and rents the other 150 of them to cover the dues on all 300, he is making a profit, since he is transfering profit from his "business" to benefit himself.

If Jane Smith has 300 points and rents them all at cost, there is no commerical venture.

If Bob Jones has 150 points and can't use them one year and rents them and turns a small profit, it could be construed as commerical (for tax purposes he'd need to report the profit) but because the action is not repeated, it probably wouldn't be construed as commercial.

This works for anything - having a cab, holding garage sales, being a photographer.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

Whether DVC can restrict commericial renting has nothing to do with tax law. It has to do with contract law and business law. However, the definition of commerical is the same in all three cases. If you make a profit, its commercial.

Disney can rent rooms through CRO on a non-commerical basis - as long as they don't book a profit. Not doing that is easy - they transfer any profit over to offset dues. They have no profit and therefore aren't commercial.

On the other hand, if Joe Doe has 300 points, uses 150 of them and rents the other 150 of them to cover the dues on all 300, he is making a profit, since he is transfering profit from his "business" to benefit himself.

If Jane Smith has 300 points and rents them all at cost, there is no commerical venture.

If Bob Jones has 150 points and can't use them one year and rents them and turns a small profit, it could be construed as commerical (for tax purposes he'd need to report the profit) but because the action is not repeated, it probably wouldn't be construed as commercial.

This works for anything - having a cab, holding garage sales, being a photographer.

Crisi,

Legally, I agree the legal arguement you are making. The question then becomes what constitues "at cost".

Since the renter is under no obligation to actually use any points from any future years, one could argue that the "cost" (acquisition plus MF fees through 2041) of this year's points is extremely high.

Any legal action against the renter would likely be dismissed without prejudice, thereby allowing DVC lawyers to persue the matter once it could be susbstantiated that "at cost" has clearly been passed.

 

[greenban]

This thread is yet another reason I have started the PDRA, the Professional DVC Rental Association. By becoming a member of this association you can avoid the dreaded commercial renter label, and not worry about the DVCs Compliance or Legal Departments. ($2.37 lifetime legal defense costs!)

Additionally, instead of being trashed and hated by the anti-rental factions, you become a loved , respected and admired provider of DVC accomidations. (Your results may vary).

Additionally, we have an injunction against rinkwide , preventing his use of wit and irony against any of our members.

So join today, and get a free disk of copyrighted Disney photos to illegally use on your ebay listings!

-Tony

 

[Anjelica]

This thread is yet another reason I have started the PDRA, the Professional DVC Rental Association. By becoming a member of this association you can avoid the dreaded commercial renter label, and not worry about the DVCs Compliance or Legal Departments. ($2.37 lifetime legal defense costs!)

Additionally, instead of being trashed and hated by the anti-rental factions, you become a loved , respected and admired provider of DVC accomidations. (Your results may vary).

Additionally, we have an injunction against rinkwide , preventing his use of wit and irony against any of our members.

So join today, and get a free disk of copyrighted Disney photos to illegally use on your ebay listings!

-Tony

Just when you thought this thread would slowly, but surely fade away from "immediate" postings you resurrected it. The whole rent topic, etc. is like the Freddy Krueger of DVC.....

 

[drakethib]

What we need around the DIS is another threador poll on Commerical renting of DVC Points or at least another discusion on if it is right or wrong.

I think we are up to about 10,000 post on the same topic.

The poor horse is beyond beat.

 

[dumbo71]

What we need around the DIS is another threador poll on Commerical renting of DVC Points or at least another discusion on if it is right or wrong.

I think we are up to about 10,000 post on the same topic.

The poor horse is beyond beat.

So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

 

[Deb & Bill]

So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

Go back and read all the renting threads. You'll get your answers there.

 

[drakethib]

So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

Much needed? I don't think anyone is going to die if the points aren't rented.

Appreciated. I can agree with that.

The first part of the question, yes, if you intentionally book premium weeks with the sole intention of renting them out, yes, those people are truly the devil, Satan, the dude down under, whatever you want to call them, because by doing so you are screwing over DVC members who could use those dates. I am not getting in the debate of everyone has the same chance to book those dates because it is nothing more then a bunch of BS. They are making money off of a system in a manner that was not intended to do such.Twist it anyway you want, think or yourself as a financial genius by doing so if you want, but you are screwing over DVC Owners and I truly hope that those doing so get caught and have the membership revoked.

Those who rent their points because they are not going to use them, can't make the trip that they had planned, or need to make a few bucks and book a trip for someone I have no problem with (again no prebooking on premium times for the sole intent of renting them). Now when someone goes out and buys a butt load of points with the sole intention of making money by renting them, I just don't think that is right as that is not the intent of DVC. JMHO

By the way Dumbo, this post isn't aimed at you. When I make the statement "you or your" in my post, I meant anyone in general.


Agreeing with Deb & Bill, I think all of the questions have been answered on the previous threads concerning renting points.

Last Comment, I really believe the Rent & Thread Board should be fee based. Minimum DisSupporter ($20) to post on that thread. Those who gripe about it could post on another board. Just think how big of a server the DIS could get with all that money.

 

[keys2kingdom]

So what is the consenus? Are those renting points truly the devil as many here would lead us to believe? Or are they simply offering a service that is much needed and appreciated?

{flame suit donned} {firefighters standing by }

I guess my stance is that if there were some way to ensure all points were only rented out after, say, the 6 month mark I wouldn't have a beef with it. I think members should get the first crack at ALL available accomodations before any non-members. I know the 6 month thing would inhibit the maximizing of profits but if it applied to EVERYONE then the rental prices might not be affected very much. I know points renting will never actually work this way but I think that would be my personal ideal scenario. Not that anyone cares.

This of course assumes that the morphing situation would be corrected once and for all.

Just my 2 cents since you asked.

 

[Dean]

I think members should get the first crack at ALL available accomodations before any non-members.

To me any owner at that resort is FAR more deserving than a non owner at that resort even if they want to rent. Technically one only owns at one resort for those points and is added to the club by nature of the system. Thus I don't see owners at other resorts having much to say about anything that an owner at a given resort does. To me, any DVC member that exchanges in at the 7 month window is simply an exchanger, not an owner.

 

[kimberh]

To me any owner at that resort is FAR more deserving than a non owner at that resort even if they want to rent. Technically one only owns at one resort for those points and is added to the club by nature of the system. Thus I don't see owners at other resorts having much to say about anything that an owner at a given resort does. To me, any DVC member that exchanges in at the 7 month window is simply an exchanger, not an owner.

Good Point!

 

[rinkwide]

...if you intentionally book premium weeks with the sole intention of renting them out, yes, those people are truly the devil, Satan, the dude down under...

But what if they're Buddhist?