Spinoff: Marriage, when do you know it is over?

[Acklander]

I think a marriage is over when the love is gone. Everyone deserves to be with someone who loves them and a person they can love.

 

[LuvGoofy6]

Depression is an illness. You vowed through sickness and health. You vowed to love him even when he is sick. Depression is a true illness like any other.
HOWEVER, it sounds to me like you could be in physical danger due to his rage, in which case you should not be living together, for your own safety. I think you have a duty to figure out what he needs for his safety- medication, hospitalization etc. And you have a duty to remain married because that is what you promised him in your wedding vows. You do NOT have a duty to continue to live with a person who is physically harming you. Many people do not live together due to issues like this.

Verbal abuse causes emotional abuse. Emotional abuse is not acceptable either. I understand his depression is a cause in this but at some point a decision needs to be made. Emotional abuse muddles the mind and isn't as black and white as physical abuse is which I believe OP is why you are struggling. If staying in this relationship causes you to suffer emotionally then soon you become depressed and hopeless. Coonhound, I completely understand what you are saying. My mom was paralyzed in her late 40's and I would have been devastated had my dad divorced her. But this is different. Maybe her leaving will encourage him to seek counseling or other services to help him get better, who knows? OP, you are no good to him if you become unhealthy emotionally/mentally.

 

[kmb584]

Any form of abuse is never okay. A severe depression diagnosis does not grant your husband the right to verbally, emotionally, mentally, and physically (in the form of throwing things AT you) abuse you. "In sickness and in health" is one thing, but abuse is its own planet and I don't equate the aforementioned vow with it.

 

[shortbun]

I am not even going to use a pseudonym on this... It may be TMI but I am ranting.

My heart is absolutely breaking right now. My husband and I do not get along. He has had some issues (was actually a thread under a pseudonym a while back). This much later, his situation is actually improving. Unfortunately we are not. I have seen him through the worst of times, and it is almost as if he hates me now. He is verbally abusive, threatening and confrontational. I could tell him George Washington was the 1st president and he would interpret that is fighting words.

I spent this afternoon sitting in a lawyer's office. (A few weeks ago I consulted a different lawyer, spent $200 and ended up changing my mind and decided to try to stick it out with him). I know it might be the "thing to say", but I seriously mean it when I say this is killing me. I am still on the fence about this, but I keep digging myself deeper into this divorce thing. I made the appointment and took home a thick stack of paperwork this time. Of course my DH knows nothing about any of this. My lawyer suggested I get all my ducks in a row and then spring it on him.

I think back to the good times we had, there were some. I don't want to hurt him. I am afraid this will devastate him. However, it seems as if daily life with him just destroys me a little bit more every day. He can be nice to me for just a little while then I start feeling guilty about wanting out, and I start wanting us to make it work. Like tonight, I felt really bad about saying I was working late when I was really seeing a divorce lawyer. He was nice to me when I got home. That makes me feel bad, and like a horrible person.

Due to some concerns about his health and stuff like that, the lawyer told me it would be in my best interests to cut and run. If he was to get down and end up in a nursing home, I would be in serious trouble financially. My head tells me that I should have been gone long ago, but my heart wants it to still work. Intellectually I know that we are broken and it cannot be fixed. My heart wants more than anything to have our old life back and things to be like they once were.

I guess I am kind of venting here.

Read the above post and give yourself the advice you'd give someone else. I'd have a place to live and people to move me set to arrive about 10 minutes after I told him. You did say, "verbally abusive, threatening and confrontational." That can escalate quickly. Maybe even have someone there with you. Get your money organized, all of it, and file before you tell him. Good luck.

 

[okeydokey]

Every person deserves respect and to be treated respectfully. You deserve peace and happiness. Maybe a counselor can help you sort out your own feelings.

Good luck, I wish you well.

 

[Jennasis]

If you're asking yourself "when do you know it's over?"...It's over.

 

[ronandannette]

We have not seen any marriage counselors. He is in therapy over his own issues. He sees me as the enemy and jailer. I see myself as servant/maid/nurse/caregiver. I don't even have to disagree with him about something to set him off into a raging fit. I can try to agree with him and he will just flip out. He has worn me down to nothing. I am physically and emotionally exhausted.

For the record, I'm one of those uber-traditionalists that were mentioned up-thread. I realize that those sentiments seem like nonsense to most of you but I agree wholeheartedly that personal happiness gets in line behind honour and commitment and love is something you DO, not something you feel.

That said, OP you sound very ambivalent. There is absolutely NO reason you need to rush this decision. It is also unthinkable that you would "spring it" on your husband without even asking the simple question as to whether or not he would be willing to avoid losing you. If I were you I'd make an appointment for myself with HIS therapist to talk over how YOU'RE feeling. Knowing your DH's issues may provide that person some really helpful insights for you.

 

[StephMK]

Read the above post and give yourself the advice you'd give someone else. I'd have a place to live and people to move me set to arrive about 10 minutes after I told him. You did say, "verbally abusive, threatening and confrontational." That can escalate quickly. Maybe even have someone there with you. Get your money organized, all of it, and file before you tell him. Good luck.

I agree with this. I personally do not think that abuse falls under the sickness & health marriage argument. It's not as if you have taken this lightly and if I sort of remember that other post, this is not a recent thing, it's been ongoing for quite some time. What would you tell a best friend or sister to do if they were in your situation?

Is he aware of the power of his behaviors? Do his docs know how he treats you? There are meds for depression - can he take them along with his physical ailment treatments? You deserve so much better than being abused by someone who is supposed to love you.

I understand what you mean about agreeing can cause him to get angry. At times, the kids I work with can fly off in a rage if just you say their name in the wrong tone. Not a mad tone, just a tone they don't like at that moment. There is no logic or reasoning when they are in that state.

I know it's hard, but think about how much of a relief it could be not to live with the uncertainty and fear. Take care of yourself, get your ducks in a row, and make your mental health a priority.

 

[donaldbuzz&minnie]

You are exhausted and confused. Anyone would be in your position. Like other posters, I agree that it would be wonderful if you could see a counselor so that you could have the benefit of a trained and sympathetic ear.

Maybe at this point you don't have to make an immediate choice between counseling and divorce. What about seeing a counselor for a few sessions just to sort out your own feelings? It really doesn't matter what those of us on the disboards think about whether or not you should get a divorce. It only matters what you think, and right now it sounds as if you are understandably unsure about what you really want.

But while you are going through counseling, why not begin to get your ducks in a row? You don't have to put anything into effect, just gather all the information you need. Know exactly what steps you need to take if you do decide to get a divorce, and set yourself up so that you could quickly implement those steps if you needed to. You'd have to do that anyway if you do decide to divorce, and if you decide to stay married, it won't be time wasted. You'll still know exactly where you stand financially, etc. Just going through the motions may give you some clarity and strength, and actually help you in sorting out your feelings during counseling.

Good luck! You're in a terrible position right now, but you will get through it, and you have friends here.

 

[mommanne]

It's over when you say it's over. When you personally can't take anymore disrespect or abuse, the marriage will be over. You don't need permission to live in a place of mutual respect. That is a right you can only enforce in your life for yourself. I don't believe that God or Jesus would reward an individual for giving their life up to abuse in the name of marriage or anything else. Martyrdom will achieve you nothing in this life but misery and there is no promise of another life after this one.

Take your life back and live it well. I wish you fortitude and luck.

 

[lauradis]

And, that's what marriage and commitment are. I dislike the fact that people think that marriage is about their own happiness all the time. I think unrepentant abuse or adultery are grounds for divorce, health is not. OP, please go to counseling. It sounds like your attorney just wants a paycheck by encouraging you to divorce and spring it on him. I don't like the feeling I'm getting from what you said the attorney has said. Not fair and could easily send him completely over the edge.

If living in another house is an option at this point I would take it over divorce. I would wait on the divorce and get myself mentally stable. (breathing room).

You could go for marriage counseling, but you don't want the kind that plays the blame game.

I'm sorry your heart is hurting.

 

[sophiagymgall]

If the previous thread you mentioned is the one I'm thinking of (bedridden husband?), then yes, I think leaving is completely justified. Your post here makes the situation look a lot tamer than it truly is. You should not have to take any emotional, verbal or physical abuse, and especially not on a daily basis. You seem to have a competent lawyer who offered very sensible advice - follow it and don't look back. Sometimes one can get stuck in a toxic situation, and not realize how very toxic it was until they're completely free from it

..And if I'm confusing you with someone else, then my apologies, and please ignore this post

 

[Lynne M]

I think at least a couple of sessions of counseling would help you get your own thoughts in order.

Is there someone who could care for him for a weekend while you get out of the house and just decompress? Even if you just stay in a hotel and get room service and watch TV....be away from the abuse and the anger for a couple of days.

Having known people who've been in emotionally abusive marriages...your story sounds familiar. The confusion, the self-doubt. The memories of when he was 'nice'. Not wanting to hurt him......even though he has no such hesitation about hurting you. After a long enough period of abuse, you can't think clearly anymore. I really do think a few sessions with a counselor would help.

And as far as 'for better or worse'......I would ask this. Is the abuse because he's angry about his health problems and he's taking it out on you? Or because the health issues are affecting his mind, and he's not capable of controlling his behavior?

If it's the former.....then I'd be out of there without a moment's hesitation. Major health problems can be frightening and upsetting, but they are NOT a free pass to treat the people who love you like garbage.

If you want to give him one more chance, it's time to stop walking on eggshells and speak plainly. If he's gonna yell at you no matter what you say, then why not? Take the throwable objects out of the room, and tell him clearly and plainly that he WILL stop speaking to you that way, or you will divorce him. His illness is not your fault, and he doesn't get to treat you as if it were.

 

[Agent7]

I’ve read the “when is it over” threads for years. You’re going to get people who tell you that you should never get divorced no matter what. People who tell you to get counseling first. And people who tell you to just leave. What is right is different for every person in every situation (IMO).

Personally I don’t think you have any sort of marriage when there is no love. Or when one spouse fears the other. Or when one spouse assumes a parental role for another. Or when there is any sort of abuse (which usually goes hand in had with other issues). Or when there is adultery or serious lying. So, personally, based on the situation you described I would seek out a divorce and either move or have him move.

I know people say that you should mention the potential divorce to your spouse first but honestly I’m not so sure. If this will send them into a fit of rage, which could potentially end up with you hurt (seeing as you say he has thrown things at you, which is NOT oaky), then I might not mention it.

If you really want to save the marriage and don’t think he would get to angry you could see if he was open to marriage counseling.

But I don’t think it’s a bad idea to get all your ducks in a row now. Especially financially. Especially since you were worried that if he went in a nursing home it would be rough on you. Even if you don’t end up filing you might want to seek out ways to protect your finances.

 

[Kathryn Merteuil]

Thank you everybody for your input. I believe @The Mystery Machine remembers the discussion from a while back under a pseudonym.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3288440

It has been a total rollercoaster on the health part, he has had more surgeries since then. He cannot use the walker anymore, he is (temporarily) having to use a wheelchair now. However, the doctor says he should be able to walk again when things get healed up. He still has to have more surgery first. The doctor says it is just going to take time. Keeping circulation going and blood sugar under control is essential. This is a thing he is fighting me about. He won't check the blood sugar, he binges. He finds "bad" food that is hidden (and hidden well) in the house and eats it. He snoops while I am gone, he found some cookies I had buried in a place I thought nobody would ever find them, and ate the whole thing.

I have other places I can "stay", but the big problem is that there is nobody else to take care of him. He has alienated our other "resources". His behavior has caused them to say, nope I am not gonna mess with this. He is completely dependent on me (and my family) to do for him. His family is not too helpful, they live a little ways away and they just aren't interested in "pitching in".

 

[tomthebarncat]

What is the definition of insanity? doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Albert Einstein! Hope this helps!

 

[disney212]

That would be the end of it for me- life is to short to deal with crap like that when you don't have to. Why stay someplace you are miserable?

I totally agree, divorce did not cause my 'broken home', it repaired it.

 

[littlejimmy]

OP. I am not a touchy feely type of person. But man, I can tell by your first post that you are hurting. I got no advice, but just best wishes and prayers.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Do what you really feel is best for you. Don't let that whole "depression is an illness, just like cancer" thing guilt you. It is an illness but its nothing like a physical illness.

The best thing that happened to me was getting away from a relationship that involved barely treated depression. The changes in my life were in steps and subtle at first so I didn't even realize how far from normal and acceptable it all was until I was out.

Good luck with whatever you decide is best.

 

[NewRVLady]

Thank you everybody for your input. I believe @The Mystery Machine remembers the discussion from a while back under a pseudonym.

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=3288440

It has been a total rollercoaster on the health part, he has had more surgeries since then. He cannot use the walker anymore, he is (temporarily) having to use a wheelchair now. However, the doctor says he should be able to walk again when things get healed up. He still has to have more surgery first. The doctor says it is just going to take time. Keeping circulation going and blood sugar under control is essential. This is a thing he is fighting me about. He won't check the blood sugar, he binges. He finds "bad" food that is hidden (and hidden well) in the house and eats it. He snoops while I am gone, he found some cookies I had buried in a place I thought nobody would ever find them, and ate the whole thing.

I have other places I can "stay", but the big problem is that there is nobody else to take care of him. He has alienated our other "resources". His behavior has caused them to say, nope I am not gonna mess with this. He is completely dependent on me (and my family) to do for him. His family is not too helpful, they live a little ways away and they just aren't interested in "pitching in".

Man -this sounds like my DH's brother & wife
She endured years of verbal abuse and he was SO ill at the end...she let HER medical problems slip and went into a Diabetic Coma & died(I REALLY believe she simply could not take her miserable life anymore)

He lasted 9 more months-with his kids trying to help-but he alientated EVERYONE.
The absolute WORSE part of those last years is he would call his Mom(old lady) and complain to her, threaten suicide to HER-it was a nightmare.