Spin off on being poor/frugal

I think even here, your numbers are low. I don't think I could get 2 muffins plus 2 coffees for breakfst for $5. Ditto on Hometown Buffet--2 people for $10? Including tax and tip? Our local Chinese buffet came to $21, not including tip, for me, DH, and DS5. Even dropping the child's meal, that's close to $20 for two adults. Even Applebee's "2 for $20" deal doesn't include tax and tip (and possibly not the drinks). I'm not trying to pick on you, just be realistic about the numbers.

Also, I think it's one thing to be super cheap when it's your own choice to eat out. When someone is travelling for business, they don't have much choice. Personally, i hated business travel, and I would prefer to cook my own meals if possible. But, I do think you should raise the per diem rates by $10 at least.

Not to be disagreeable but those are my real numbers with tax and tip.
2 breakfast sandwiches and 1 coffee at Speedway $5 (DH loves their mocha)
2 people at Hometown Buffet in MI $4.50 each plus tip $10
Applebees Curbside 2 for $20 $21.70 plus tip
Pretty darn close to $35 and we still have 1/5 of the Applebees left for lunch the next day.

Someone asked the profession of the employees. Blue collar general laborers who would never step foot in a restaurant. They prefer carry out.
And to how they get reimbursed, they are handed $50 every 2 days.
 
Curious question for those that think $25 is plenty...do you travel frequently for work? Is eating nothing but bread and water for breakfast, stiffing Applebee's waitresses their tips, etc. typical for you several days (or weeks) each month?

If you are an employer and you give your employees about $25, how are your employees? Are they hard working, trustworthy, quality employees? Do you have a high turnover rate?

My guys live on the road for 6-8 months out of the year. They love it, no expenses, they live in hotels and don't pay rent, utilities or anything else. It's a dream if you don't have kids or family. They were in a casino hotel for 2 moths this spring, they joined the players club and got 3.99 lunch buffets and 9.99 prime rib dinner buffets every day. I never asked if they stiffed any waitresses. Although I am sure more than one waitress has made it back to one of the rooms though. There are plenty of other construction workers that live on the road, and some don't get per diem at all. There aren't many jobs that you can work if you don't have a drivers license where you get food and lodging paid for and you make a decent wage and always have someone to pick you up and drive you around. For some of these guys, even having internet is a step up and the hotel is much nicer where they actually live the rest of the year. I could raise the per diem for everyone and lay one guy off to afford it, he could just go get another job to make up for it and get more per diem. Which companies provide room and board to guys who didn't finish high school and don't have drivers licenses and give them a more respectable per diem than we do while paying insurance and a decent wage. Oh yeah, and work with their parole/probation officers to help them keep tabs on them especially when we cross state lines to work? (Before I get flamed, We don't hire felons with violent crime history, just drinking and/or driving offenses.)
 
Huh? You absolutely can get a healthy, decent meal in pretty much any town when you travel, unless you work for the slavedriver who insisted we had to fly cross-country and be at the client by mid-morning, so the company saved the cost of one hotel night. Too bad the flights were often delayed or cancelled, so we rarely made it there before lunchtime and he had to credit the client a half-day. We billed him for the overpriced airport breakfasts and lunches, along with long-distance phone charges and exorbitant internet access during the delays. Would have been less expensive to pay for the hotel room.

Sure, you can get a healthy, decent meal anywhere. As long as you have transportation. What if you fly somewhere and, since you're staying at the hotel that's hosting the meeting, your company doesn't pay to rent a car? And your hotel is expensive and remote? How much am I supposed to spend finding and getting to that cheap meal? Please don't assume everyone travels exactly the same way YOU do.
 
I would also say that some of the best restaurants we found - quality/service/etc. - cost the least, and fit well within the per diem, even if you did eat out for both lunch and dinner. Working within a budget doesn't mean you can't find a really great meal. :goodvibes

But you have to remember that not everyone who travels for work has the time or transportation available to seek out the best restaurants. If you are arriving by plane or train and there isn't public transportation, and you are working late, you pretty much have to eat whatever is close, even if it is more expensive.
 

Curious question for those that think $25 is plenty...do you travel frequently for work? Is eating nothing but bread and water for breakfast, stiffing Applebee's waitresses their tips, etc. typical for you several days (or weeks) each month?

If you are an employer and you give your employees about $25, how are your employees? Are they hard working, trustworthy, quality employees? Do you have a high turnover rate?

I am an employer. We have employees who have been with us for over 35 years. Those who have retired come several mornings a week at break time just to catch up with everyone. We've bailed them out of jail, paid back child support so they could work, paid for treatment centers for substance abuse, worked with their parole officers, took them back after prison sentences but they all deserve a job and they are good employees. They signed on knowing travel was mandatory.
Some who don't last are the ones who quit after 90 days whan the child support orders come in. 6 kids with 3 different moms. 6 Court orders. Ok, I'll just quit!
They are not having bread and water and stiffing wait staff.
You make me sound like Leona Helmsley!:scared1:
 
My guys live on the road for 6-8 months out of the year. They love it, no expenses, they live in hotels and don't pay rent, utilities or anything else. It's a dream if you don't have kids or family. They were in a casino hotel for 2 moths this spring, they joined the players club and got 3.99 lunch buffets and 9.99 prime rib dinner buffets every day. I never asked if they stiffed any waitresses. Although I am sure more than one waitress has made it back to one of the rooms though. There are plenty of other construction workers that live on the road, and some don't get per diem at all. There aren't many jobs that you can work if you don't have a drivers license where you get food and lodging paid for and you make a decent wage and always have someone to pick you up and drive you around. For some of these guys, even having internet is a step up and the hotel is much nicer where they actually live the rest of the year. I could raise the per diem for everyone and lay one guy off to afford it, he could just go get another job to make up for it and get more per diem. Which companies provide room and board to guys who didn't finish high school and don't have drivers licenses and give them a more respectable per diem than we do while paying insurance and a decent wage. Oh yeah, and work with their parole/probation officers to help them keep tabs on them especially when we cross state lines to work? (Before I get flamed, We don't hire felons with violent crime history, just drinking and/or driving offenses.)

Thank you! Somebody who gets it! :thumbsup2
 
As long as it all works out, that's fine. I know plenty of consultants who claim to be spending their entire per diem, every day and suddenly, when the company wises up and requires receipts, they can suddenly live within the budget, lol.

Same thing for taxi and car service. I once submitted my expense report showing that I took mass transit to the airport and my co-travelers were pissed, because they were going to submit a phony receipt and split the cash between them. (I wonder if they were going to offer me a share of the bogus reimbursement? Probably not.)

I've only been here just over a year (3 trips) and came from a place that required all receipts (but didn't have a set limit), so it takes some getting used to.

We do need receipts for taxis etc. I can actually walk to the airport from my home.

As far as I know, the system seems to work (otherwise, I'm sure that they'd change it).
 
Huh? You absolutely can get a healthy, decent meal in pretty much any town when you travel, unless you work for the slavedriver who insisted we had to fly cross-country and be at the client by mid-morning, so the company saved the cost of one hotel night. Too bad the flights were often delayed or cancelled, so we rarely made it there before lunchtime and he had to credit the client a half-day. We billed him for the overpriced airport breakfasts and lunches, along with long-distance phone charges and exorbitant internet access during the delays. Would have been less expensive to pay for the hotel room.

If you choose a job requiring travel, assume that there will be times that you'll be away from your home and family.



No, it's "If you were home, you'd spend some amount. Here's a budget of $-- to spend over that amount, to compensate you for the inconvenience."

I once drove four states away for a business trip, through pouring rain. I left in the evening, after having had to work later than planned at the office. When I got to the town, the only thing open was McDonald's and an overpriced restaurant. I chose the overpriced restaurant, which was more than $25 for the meal. (Food was great, though.) I submitted my expense report/receipts with a note, explaining the situation. It was authorized the same day and given back to me with the comment of "We know you're honest about travel expenses. No problem, but don't make a habit of it."


Per diem is NOT a way to make money off business trips. People who think that way are the ones who ruin it for everyone in the company.
That's why there are limits / caps, why companies start requiring receipts, and why some people lose their jobs.

ITA (even though DH and I don't have limits, but I totally wouldn't care if we did)! Per diem isn't meant to even cover your total cost of living for that day, if you were at home or at your home office, you'd be spending SOMETHING on food, whether you pack a lunch or eat out. Per diem is absolutely meant to subsidize, but if it does cover everything then it's a bonus. I had a boss once who wouldn't pay for lunches when we had to take CPE classes because according to him, we'd have to eat lunch regardless. He didn't care that our only options were very expensive convention center lunches.
 
I am an employer. We have employees who have been with us for over 35 years. Those who have retired come several mornings a week at break time just to catch up with everyone. We've bailed them out of jail, paid back child support so they could work, paid for treatment centers for substance abuse, worked with their parole officers, took them back after prison sentences but they all deserve a job and they are good employees. They signed on knowing travel was mandatory.
Some who don't last are the ones who quit after 90 days whan the child support orders come in. 6 kids with 3 different moms. 6 Court orders. Ok, I'll just quit!
They are not having bread and water and stiffing wait staff.
You make me sound like Leona Helmsley!:scared1:


Sorry! :)

The "bread and water and stiffing wait staff" was more about a pp who said $25 would be fine because you could go to Panera for bagels and ice water and 1/2 of a Applebees 2 for $20 would be $12 (depending on the city, tax could be as high as $1.30 on a $10 bill...so that would be a 70 cent tip).

I guess when I think of traveling for work, it doesn't really even occur to think of the type of employees/work you have. I guess I'm guilty of assuming everyone travels exactly the same way.:sad2:
 
Not to be disagreeable but those are my real numbers with tax and tip.
2 breakfast sandwiches and 1 coffee at Speedway $5 (DH loves their mocha)
2 people at Hometown Buffet in MI $4.50 each plus tip $10
Applebees Curbside 2 for $20 $21.70 plus tip
Pretty darn close to $35 and we still have 1/5 of the Applebees left for lunch the next day.

Someone asked the profession of the employees. Blue collar general laborers who would never step foot in a restaurant. They prefer carry out.
And to how they get reimbursed, they are handed $50 every 2 days.

Well, except for the one coffee, you didn't include drinks. My DH would never have just one breakfast sandwich to get him through the morning, especially if he were doing physical labor. I've never, ever seen a lunch buffet as low as $4.50 pp--it may be a regional thing, but if they're travelling, it's going to vary for them, as well. And I don't see how blue collar laborers = never setting foot in a restaurant. Do you mean a plumber or sheetrock guy would never go to Olive Garden? You're not seriously suggeting that, are you? Have you considered that they get takeaway to save money, because their per diem is low? Because I'd rather eat a burger at a table, with silverware there, than schlep it back and eat it sitting on a hotel bed.

I really think you're projecting your personal choices on your employees. If you like to be frugal with your food budget, that's perfectly fine--I'm right there with you. But, you should really look at those GSA numbers, just to give you an idea of standards. I worked/travelled under GSA rules--believe me, they're not wildly generous.
 
No, it's "If you were home, you'd spend some amount. Here's a budget of $-- to spend over that amount, to compensate you for the inconvenience."

I see what you're saying, but I eat for $3 a meal at home (on average) so $25 plus $9 of my own is $34...that's still pretty low for 3 meals a day on the road, especially in high COL cities. I don't think anyone expects a company to pay for their employees to have steak and lobster every night, but enough to eat a decent meal without having to search out a grocery store in a strange location isn't asking too much either.

My company is a non-profit so every dime counts..but they still allow $60 a day for meals. Our meetings are usually in major city centers, travelers do not have access to a rental car, so it's whatever is in walking distance of the hotel. Since these are city centers (hotels, corporate offices, etc.) usually the food options are limited to local tourist traps, the hotel restaurant(s), the hotel sundries shop, or restaurants that cater to local workers on their lunch break. Most of those are not low cost options, and employees are there to work, not hunt down cheap meal options on what little down time they have while traveling.
 
I am an employer. We have employees who have been with us for over 35 years. Those who have retired come several mornings a week at break time just to catch up with everyone. We've bailed them out of jail, paid back child support so they could work, paid for treatment centers for substance abuse, worked with their parole officers, took them back after prison sentences but they all deserve a job and they are good employees. They signed on knowing travel was mandatory.
Some who don't last are the ones who quit after 90 days whan the child support orders come in. 6 kids with 3 different moms. 6 Court orders. Ok, I'll just quit!
They are not having bread and water and stiffing wait staff.
You make me sound like Leona Helmsley!:scared1:

If you feel you're paying them enough, why did you come her to ask?
 
Well, except for the one coffee, you didn't include drinks. My DH would never have just one breakfast sandwich to get him through the morning, especially if he were doing physical labor. I've never, ever seen a lunch buffet as low as $4.50 pp--it may be a regional thing, but if they're travelling, it's going to vary for them, as well. And I don't see how blue collar laborers = never setting foot in a restaurant. Do you mean a plumber or sheetrock guy would never go to Olive Garden? You're not seriously suggeting that, are you? Have you considered that they get takeaway to save money, because their per diem is low? Because I'd rather eat a burger at a table, with silverware there, than schlep it back and eat it sitting on a hotel bed.

I really think you're projecting your personal choices on your employees. If you like to be frugal with your food budget, that's perfectly fine--I'm right there with you. But, you should really look at those GSA numbers, just to give you an idea of standards. I worked/travelled under GSA rules--believe me, they're not wildly generous.

They do go to restaurants when they feel like it but after working all day, most of them just want shower and kick back instead of cleaning up and driving to a restaurant to eat. I (we) prefer to schlep it back to our hotel room and get comfortable and not pay for drinks. So I am a slummer. I live in a hotel 165 days a year and I don't want to go to a restaurant. I am not projecting my choices on my employees. The $25 a day is theirs to spend on food, alcohol, cigarettes, or hookers for all I care. Which seems to be their choice today.
 
Well, except for the one coffee, you didn't include drinks. My DH would never have just one breakfast sandwich to get him through the morning, especially if he were doing physical labor. I've never, ever seen a lunch buffet as low as $4.50 pp--it may be a regional thing, but if they're travelling, it's going to vary for them, as well. And I don't see how blue collar laborers = never setting foot in a restaurant. Do you mean a plumber or sheetrock guy would never go to Olive Garden? You're not seriously suggeting that, are you? Have you considered that they get takeaway to save money, because their per diem is low? Because I'd rather eat a burger at a table, with silverware there, than schlep it back and eat it sitting on a hotel bed.

I really think you're projecting your personal choices on your employees. If you like to be frugal with your food budget, that's perfectly fine--I'm right there with you. But, you should really look at those GSA numbers, just to give you an idea of standards. I worked/travelled under GSA rules--believe me, they're not wildly generous.

I think there are all types of blue collar workers and a plumber is NOT the same as a sheetrock guy. There is a world of difference and I am sure a plumber or plumbers wife will chime in. The money is night and day also. It's like comparing the bank teller to the bank president. Even the best rock guy will never get $70 an hour plus trip charges. My guys dig holes and ditches. They would love to be plumbers or sheetrock guys. They get hot and sweaty and dirty, they are using the bathroom in port a potties all day. Does anyone think they want to go to Applebees or the Olive Garden to have a sit down? They want to go to their room and lie down and watch TV in the air conditioning. They work until dark and go back at sunrise. They do want a delivered meal, thats the main complaint I get, that there aren't good delivery places near a hotel. If the hotel has a restaurant, they may shower and head down to eat, but it's 8pm and they want to eat fast and get to bed. We do not allow drinking during the week. If someone came and asked for more, I would consider but no one has. My accountant and everyone else tells me I am crazy, call them all contractors, 1099 them and quit paying taxes, insurance and social security plus per diem. We are closing that part of the business this November, I am getting over taxed and over stressed.
 
They do go to restaurants when they feel like it but after working all day, most of them just want shower and kick back instead of cleaning up and driving to a restaurant to eat. I (we) prefer to schlep it back to our hotel room and get comfortable and not pay for drinks. So I am a slummer. I live in a hotel 165 days a year and I don't want to go to a restaurant. I am not projecting my choices on my employees. The $25 a day is theirs to spend on food, alcohol, cigarettes, or hookers for all I care. Which seems to be their choice today.

:thumbsup2

I made the mistake once of renting the guys one big apartment so they could cook and have all the comforts of home, they still ate Taco bell all the time and then nearly killed each other because they all had gas and stunk so bad. They begged for hotels again, now I put the bathers with the bathers and the non-bathers with non-bathers and everyone lives!
 
If you feel you're paying them enough, why did you come her to ask?
Because I wanted to know if it would make a difference to keep good workers and what others gave for per diem.
I guess you can call me Leona Hemsley. Put me in jail. I'm close to it according to you. I'll change my screen name!:lmao:
 
A lot would depend on WHERE you are, and since you are talking about manual laborers, presumably you are not in center cities during off-hours. If you are staying at the average Quality Inn or ESA, then yes, your payment isn't that far off, but I'd still raise it just a bit, as I think that expecting folks to eat gas station "meals" in an unfamiliar place is going a bit too far. I think I'd at least take it up to the price of McDonald's.
So, maybe give them an add'l $5 to cover incidentals like a couple of cokes or cups of coffee in there, or they might want a small dessert once in a while; if they are laborers they can handle the calories.

I would think that if they ARE working an urban construction site you would have lunch delivered; most guys who do that kind of work in large cities carry their own lunches and eat on the jobsite. (My Dad always did, he was a carpenter. When he went out of town on jobs he usually ate breakfast at whatever local diner he could find, and had them also wrap him up a couple of sandwiches and a thermos of coffee to eat at lunchtime -- he always kept an ice chest in his work truck. Diners were his preference they open early, and he was normally on site by 6 am. My Dad's workday breakfasts routinely included 3 eggs, four pieces of bread and about 6 ounces of bacon or sausage, plus two cups of coffee. He sweated most of it off in the course of a day.)
 
To the OP - I think your employees would appreciate anything for their per diem. However, you may want to consider when was the last time you increased their amount?

What you give them does not have to fully cover everything they want to eat in a day.

If you are wanting to fully cover meals, price it out. If you think fastfood is the level you want to cover - then so be it. I really don't think as an employer should have (or be made to feel like) to cover prime rib dinners nightly and breakfast buffets every morning. Also consider the location your employees are going.

I really can't imagine a $60 or $80 per day per diem:scared1:.
 
Because I wanted to know if it would make a difference to keep good workers and what others gave for per diem.
I guess you can call me Leona Hemsley. Put me in jail. I'm close to it according to you. I'll change my screen name!:lmao:

We also purchase beef jerky, trail mix, sodas, bottled water, chips and other snacks before a long trip. My DH replenishes it weekly. We save the receipts so we can write that off. I try to book a room with a fridge and breakfast. Even if a room is $10 more, with two guys per room it helps offset costs. I also keep my eyes on different websites and will text DH when Chipotle has BOGO or some other place has a deal. Hotels.com has had some good specials lately and you get a night for yourself for every 10 nights you book. Their prices have been the same as Expedia and Hotwire lately. I've been booking travel and doing logistics for years and I am done! I cannot take the stress, we might sub out next year, but taxes and insurance and all that crap is killing us. It's taking time away from our other businesses. I am selling all of our equipment after the last job is done and we are finished! Clients don't care if a vanload of illegals pull up to do the work if they can save a buck. Half of our work last year was from fixing screw ups from other companies, but our hearts are not in it anymore. We carry insurance and take care of our guys and do everything right, and I am competing against some illegals that sleep in their truck and dig a hole to go to the bathroom. (I am not kidding on that one) Everyone wants everyone else to get paid a living wage and have all these extras like insurance and per diem but when it comes to paying higher prices for installation and products, it can't come from their pocket.
 












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