Spanking

[luvsJack]

Leaving marks would be abuse. Spanking and not leaving marks would not, imo. All spankings are not equal.

We had a child in our center who was abused. It started with hand prints on his bottom and back. We reported. Two days later he had a hand print across his face. She called child services herself. She never used a thing but her hand but when she slapped him across the face he fell down the stairs. Luckily there were no injuries from the fall.

 

[sam_gordon]

Do you think maybe the poster meant “better off” in that your life would have been better & easier at least in childhood? I didn’t post it so I don’t know what he/she meant. Although it sounds like you overcame things & you said it shaped who you are, I’m sure you would agree that other children should not have endure that even though you were able to overcome it. Maybe that’s what’s meant by better? And I think that’s where I have a problem with it all. What you endured sounds extreme so it’s more obviously abuse, but the severity of corporal punishment can be subjective. So what someone thinks is extreme other ppl think are ok & necessary. We saw that just in this thread. I have seen many parents justify some pretty harsh things in my experience. Things that don’t quite meet the level of the abuse you endured but that were reportable to child protection. In most cases, these parents really thought what they were doing was ok & many made remarks like “nothing else works with him” and/or “it’s my child...it’s no one else’s business”. Most of them were not accidents b/c they lost their temper. For most, it was their form of discipline. I’m not talking about a swat on the butt. Child protection’s bench mark for the most part is did it leave evident marks. Some of the things I’ve heard on this thread could leave marks & would be reportable to child protection & considered child abuse no matter what anyone’s personal opinion is of it.

Except PP referenced "spanking" which I think most people accept as a swat on the behind. What @jiminyC_fan experienced goes FAR beyond that.

 

[luvsJack]

For those that dismiss the experts & refer to them as “experts” as if they aren’t really, do you do that for other aspects of life? Do you think things like “those expert engineers claim the bridge is structurally sound” or that “expert MD says I have x condition”? Maybe that’s just your personality. But, if not, how is this different? Personally, I generally don't dismiss ppl who spend yrs in school, who have passed multiple licensing exams, who spent yrs in practice & who are required to complete hours of continuing education annually. There are hundreds of thousands in these fields world wide who have done/do just that & they largely agree on this subject. I think that’s a little arrogant.

Usually in stuff like this there are a big number of experts that have the opposite opinion.

 

[robinb]

That is not even what I said. I said that she spanked with a belt. I said I would not do the same thing. I said seeing the results of her parenting keeps me from choosing to judge her.

I used the family as an example that you cannot decide how a kid is going to turn out by your opinion of how they are disciplined or punished and that you cannot assume that what you think you witness is the only method the parent uses.

I intentionally did not name you. I think we're talking semantics here. I would say that hitting a child with a belt is indeed "whipping" and not simply a spanking. I think a parent crosses a line when they go from using an open hand to a tool. Of course you wouldn't do the same thing. I never said you would. I don't see how the rest of your comment differs from mine.

In any case, your post is what turned the thread to whipping children and possible abuse situations instead of the probably whack on the butt witnessed by @Domo.

 

[LSUmiss]

Usually in stuff like this there are a big number of experts that have the opposite opinion.

But there really aren’t. There may be some researchers with dissenting opinions, but that is not what is mainstream. Therapist aren’t teaching parents to spank kids in parenting classes. In other areas of the world it’s illegal. Child protection doesn’t allow any form corporal punishment for any any foster children. Foster parents agree to that before they’re allow foster a child.

 

[1Mouse2RulethemAll]

For those that dismiss the experts & refer to them as “experts” as if they aren’t really, do you do that for other aspects of life? Do you think things like “those expert engineers claim the bridge is structurally sound” or that “expert MD says I have x condition”? Maybe that’s just your personality. But, if not, how is this different? Personally, I generally don't dismiss ppl who spend yrs in school, who have passed multiple licensing exams, who spent yrs in practice & who are required to complete hours of continuing education annually. There are hundreds of thousands in these fields world wide who have done/do just that & they largely agree on this subject. I think that’s a little arrogant.

There is a big difference between physical experts and psychological experts. A lot of the science for mental health is still theoretical and new opinions come out yearly, hence the continuing education requirements. What is considered the right way to discipline a child today is only valid until a new study comes out to contradict it.

 

[Domo]

I intentionally did not name you. I think we're talking semantics here. I would say that hitting a child with a belt is indeed "whipping" and not simply a spanking. I think a parent crosses a line when they go from using an open hand to a tool. Of course you wouldn't do the same thing. I never said you would. I don't see how the rest of your comment differs from mine.

In any case, your post is what turned the thread to whipping children and possible abuse situations instead of the probably whack on the butt witnessed by @Domo.

I was just a little uneasy about seeing a child having their trousers dropped down and then spanked. In the same way I'd rather not see a child relieve themselves in line - both are a little OTT if you see what I mean? It's just a personal thing, no judgement as such.

 

[LSUmiss]

There is a big difference between physical experts and psychological experts. A lot of the science for mental health is still theoretical and new opinions come out yearly, hence the continuing education requirements. What is considered the right way to discipline a child today is only valid until a new study comes out to contradict it.

So is a lot of medicine but most ppl trust their Md’s opinion. And I think that exactly makes the point. Spanking was much more common practice but we learned things & recommendations change.

 

[Dentam]

I think a parent crosses a line when they go from using an open hand to a tool.

Hands can do more damage than a "tool" - as others have already pointed out, it depends on how each is used. We would get a swat on the butt with the wooden paddle my dad made. Never left a mark, just stung a bit, lol. We were never hit in any other way that I recall. I think a slap to the face would be a lot more traumatic than the swats with the paddle we would sometimes get.

 

[luvsJack]

So is a lot of medicine but most ppl trust their Md’s opinion. And I think that exactly makes the point. Spanking was much more common practice but we learned things & recommendations change.

How many of us get second and third opinions of md's?

You mention spanking not being allowed in foster families. It's not allowed in child care either. But fear of abuse to a child isn't the only reason. It's also protection of the child caregiver and the center. Having a firm policy on place that is followed to the letter prevents any accusations of abuse.

 

[Marchand63]

Well, that would certainly alter the definition of the “happiest place on earth”.

Not necessarily

 

[mummabear]

And anyone thinking a three year old understands reasoning the way and adult does tells me all I need to know. Plenty who start out trying to reason, give that up pretty quickly. Do you think I only spanked? Hardly. My kids got time outs when that was appropriate. I do think your "superiority" attitude will come back to bite you. Almost everyone I know (my age and quite a few younger, even many in their 20's) was spanked at least once as a child and none of them have any problems because of it. No one in jail, abusing drugs, abusing spouses, etc. You need to understand there is a HUGE difference between beating someone and swatting them on the butt once or twice.

Calling it lazy parenting is absurd just because you don't agree with how a lot of us parent. No one said your parenting was "lazy" or anything else, but you were quick to pull that one out.

Wow I’m not lazy your lazy, great argument.
Take the OP for example, it’s lazy parenting, she doesn’t take the kid out of the line and miss the ride, out of the park, no the parent is unwilling to make any sacrifices, do anything inconvienient to them to discipline their child so they use the threat of physical violence to get them to tow the line.

There is a difference between under standing and understanding the same as an adult, your point that you can’t make a child understand not to run on the road with our smacking then is false.

See, here's the mistake some make. We, who were spanked and who did spank (at least those I knew) were taught appropriate behavior. We never (or were never) spanked and didn't have a lesson with it. You make it sound like people just spank their kids and walk away. Hardly. We were taught (and taught) appropriate behavior. What do you mean by "better"? I guess you mean your definition of parenting. BTW, are you a parent? I find most people who are appalled by spanking as one tool in discipline have no children and are very idealistic.

So you don’t think those same lessons can be taught without hitting?

I don't think anyone who is "pro-spanking" says every child needs spanked in order to learn lessons. Many people have said different things work for different kids. Some kids need a stern look, others need spanked. Just because you didn't have to spank your kids doesn't mean what you do would work for every child.

For sure not all parenting methods work for all kids, but in he hundreds of different ways to modify behaviour I don’t believe that there is any child that the only way is to smack them

 

[manning]

When I was a child I would get spanked. The only time I was concerned was when dad got the 2x4 out.

 

[sk!mom]

I'll ask again... how would you have been better off if you hadn't been spanked?


Actually, there was no spanking witnessed by the OP or mentioned in the OP. He THOUGHT it might lead to that.

I would love to have an answer as well. My case was extreme but even I don't look back and say " I would have been better off".

Given the information below, I have to think that although we have fared well in life we would quite possibly have done even better especially in those early years of finding the confidence to make our own way. I also believe that our relationships with our parents would have been healthier. Your comments indicate that you don't seem really interested in reading the research and opening your minds.

And really, you were abused and you can't look back and see that you would have been better off had that not been the case? Well, my DH looks back and disagrees.

"Studies have shown that spanking can damage a child's IQ or ability to learn; that it trigger aggressiveness and worsens behavior. Gershoff says the pattern is consistent when a large number of studies are put together.

“In childhood, parental use of spanking was associated with low moral internalization, aggression, antisocial behavior, externalizing behavior problems, internalizing behavior problems, mental health problems, negative parent– child relationships, impaired cognitive ability, low self-esteem, and risk of physical abuse from parents. In adulthood, prior experiences of parental use of spanking were significantly associated with adult antisocial behavior, adult mental health problems, and with positive attitudes about spanking,” they wrote.

“Spanking was also significantly associated with lower moral internalization, lower cognitive ability, and lower self-esteem. The largest effect size was for physical abuse; the more children are spanked, the greater the risk that they will be physically abused by their parents.”

 

[LSUmiss]

Given the information below, I have to think that although we have fared well in life we would quite possibly have done even better especially in those early years of finding the confidence to make our own way. I also believe that our relationships with our parents would have been healthier. Your comments indicate that you don't seem really interested in reading the research and opening your minds.

And really, you were abused and you can't look back and see that you would have been better off had that not been the case? Well, my DH looks back and disagrees.

"Studies have shown that spanking can damage a child's IQ or ability to learn; that it trigger aggressiveness and worsens behavior. Gershoff says the pattern is consistent when a large number of studies are put together.

“In childhood, parental use of spanking was associated with low moral internalization, aggression, antisocial behavior, externalizing behavior problems, internalizing behavior problems, mental health problems, negative parent– child relationships, impaired cognitive ability, low self-esteem, and risk of physical abuse from parents. In adulthood, prior experiences of parental use of spanking were significantly associated with adult antisocial behavior, adult mental health problems, and with positive attitudes about spanking,” they wrote.

“Spanking was also significantly associated with lower moral internalization, lower cognitive ability, and lower self-esteem. The largest effect size was for physical abuse; the more children are spanked, the greater the risk that they will be physically abused by their parents.”

I honestly would like someone to link something that supports spanking as effective. I have done a quick google search & can’t find anything. Ppl have said that the experts don’t agree, but that’s news to me. So I really would like to read something about it. Hoping someone who mentioned that the experts don’t agree can point me in the right direction. All I see is basically things that say why it may not be “that bad”, but even those go on to say it’s not effective.

 

[sk!mom]

I honestly would like someone to link something that supports spanking as effective. I have done a quick google search & can’t find anything. Ppl have said that the experts don’t agree, but that’s news to me. So I really would like to read something about it. Hoping someone who mentioned that the experts don’t agree can point me in the right direction. All I see is basically things that say why it may not be “that bad”, but even those go on to say it’s not effective.

Right! What experts are disagreeing and where is the evidence that supports spanking as healthy and effective discipline?

I said early on that everyone I ever have this discussion with always uses the very anecdotal argument of, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." To me that is akin to, "I've smoked for 30 years and don't have cancer." It's anecdotal and ignores all evidence of the unhealthiness of the behavior.

 

[LSUmiss]

Right! What experts are disagreeing and where is the evidence that supports spanking as healthy and effective discipline?

I said early on that everyone I ever have this discussion with always uses the very anecdotal argument of, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." To me that is akin to, "I've smoked for 30 years and don't have cancer." It's anecdotal and ignores all evidence of the unhealthiness of the behavior.

I have not read anything about research done that supports it. All I have seen is the common reasons why ppl argue it’s effective. But, exactly, it’s all anecdotal. Many countries around the world have made it illegal. What I don’t get, is if it’s even potentially harmful why take a chance??

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

Right! What experts are disagreeing and where is the evidence that supports spanking as healthy and effective discipline?

I said early on that everyone I ever have this discussion with always uses the very anecdotal argument of, "I was spanked and I turned out fine." To me that is akin to, "I've smoked for 30 years and don't have cancer." It's anecdotal and ignores all evidence of the unhealthiness of the behavior.

Fallacy of dramatic instance...The most common fallacy among those discussing social problems.

 

[Hikergirl]

I honestly would like someone to link something that supports spanking as effective. I have done a quick google search & can’t find anything. Ppl have said that the experts don’t agree, but that’s news to me. So I really would like to read something about it. Hoping someone who mentioned that the experts don’t agree can point me in the right direction. All I see is basically things that say why it may not be “that bad”, but even those go on to say it’s not effective.

I know spanking worked for me, my parents did it and I did it. I know how I turned out as an adult, and I know how my kids have turned out as teens and young adults so far. I agree that spanking can be ineffective for some kids, but I disagree that it is ineffective for ALL kids.
I also agree that it can be detrimental to some kids and their development, but that depends on many many factors, you can't say with 100% certainty that all kids that are spanked will end up the same.
I am not an expert in the field, but I am an expert in being spanked (I was as a child) and an expert in disciplining my own kids, that is all I need to know for my opinion on whether I feel spanking is an acceptable form of punishment.


(Scientific American)
To spank or not to spank? This age-old parenting question elicits fierce debate among parents, psychologists and pediatricians. Surveys suggest that nearly half of U.S. parents have spanked their children as a disciplinary tactic, but many experts argue that this form of punishment—hitting a child on the bottom with an open hand—increases the risk that kids will develop emotional and behavioral problems. Other scientists counter that research on the issue is fraught with problems, making it impossible to draw black-and-white conclusions.


(APA.org) Research findings (my comment in red)
Physical punishment can work momentarily to stop problematic behavior because children are afraid of being hit, but it doesn’t work in the long term and can make children more aggressive, Graham-Bermann says.
Isn't this why most parents spank? I know this is why I did, so it worked for what I intended it to work for.
and this
As in many areas of science, some researchers disagree about the validity of the studies on physical punishment. Robert Larzelere, PhD, an Oklahoma State University professor who studies parental discipline, was a member of the APA task force who issued his own minority report because he disagreed with the scientific basis of the task force recommendations. While he agrees that parents should reduce their use of physical punishment, he says most of the cited studies are correlational and don’t show a causal link between physical punishment and long-term negative effects for children.


I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, it is just an example in a couple of the links provided of why in my pp I said something about "disagreeing" to the posters statement that everyone agrees or something to that effect.

 

[Soldier's*Sweeties]

I know spanking worked for me, my parents did it and I did it. I know how I turned out as an adult, and I know how my kids have turned out as teens and young adults so far. I agree that spanking can be ineffective for some kids, but I disagree that it is ineffective for ALL kids.
I also agree that it can be detrimental to some kids and their development, but that depends on many many factors, you can't say with 100% certainty that all kids that are spanked will end up the same.
I am not an expert in the field, but I am an expert in being spanked (I was as a child) and an expert in disciplining my own kids, that is all I need to know for my opinion on whether I feel spanking is an acceptable form of punishment.


(Scientific American)
To spank or not to spank? This age-old parenting question elicits fierce debate among parents, psychologists and pediatricians. Surveys suggest that nearly half of U.S. parents have spanked their children as a disciplinary tactic, but many experts argue that this form of punishment—hitting a child on the bottom with an open hand—increases the risk that kids will develop emotional and behavioral problems. Other scientists counter that research on the issue is fraught with problems, making it impossible to draw black-and-white conclusions.


(APA.org) Research findings (my comment in red)
Physical punishment can work momentarily to stop problematic behavior because children are afraid of being hit, but it doesn’t work in the long term and can make children more aggressive, Graham-Bermann says.
Isn't this why most parents spank? I know this is why I did, so it worked for what I intended it to work for.
and this
As in many areas of science, some researchers disagree about the validity of the studies on physical punishment. Robert Larzelere, PhD, an Oklahoma State University professor who studies parental discipline, was a member of the APA task force who issued his own minority report because he disagreed with the scientific basis of the task force recommendations. While he agrees that parents should reduce their use of physical punishment, he says most of the cited studies are correlational and don’t show a causal link between physical punishment and long-term negative effects for children.


I know this isn't exactly what you asked for, it is just an example in a couple of the links provided of why in my pp I said something about "disagreeing" to the posters statement that everyone agrees or something to that effect.

Even though I don’t believe in spanking, I agree that it is near impossible to play the causation/correlation game when it comes to human beings. There are too many other factors at play. There are experts who says spanking is the root of all evil, and others who say it’s not. Human interaction is one of the most complicated topics to try to understand.