Southwest and Pooh Size travellers

[jm-mom]

I wanted to share my recent Southwest experience since I know there are some of you concerned about it and I've seen it pop up here now and then. I am at the high end of Pooh Sized and have severe arthritis so I needed a wheelchair to get me through the airports. I'm not sure if was my size or the wheelchair that red-flagged me to the SWA staff but I was asked in St. Louis and on the return in Orlando about using a second seat. First they asked me if I was aware of the policy and I said yes. Then before they could say more, I told them that the policy states that the armrests must be able to go all the way down and with me, they do. That's not to say I don't spread a bit in my upper body or out to the front, but I do meet the criteria they have in place. On the way home I was again asked if I was aware of the policy and that I might not fit. I informed the man, in a serious tone of voice, that unless the plane shrunk, I would be fine as I had just flown there a week earlier. That satisfied him and there was no more question.

Having said all that, i'm not sure my experience would have gone as smoothly were the flights not sold out, the airport very crowded and I wasn't travelling with my two small children. I've flown SWA at this size many times in the last 5 years and always with these same children and husband and this was the first time I was approached about the policy.

On my flight down to Orlando, because I was in the wheelchair I was allowed to preboard. I was in line to be the 1st one on the plane with my family. The SWA attendant started talking to me about the policy and how even though I was traveling with my two kids, there was no way to guarantee they could be seated next to me thus allowing me to occupy some of their space if needed. I almost laughed right at him but I calmly told him, "sir, I am the first one going on this plane, there are NO other passengers already on board, so wouldn't it be a certainty that my kids could sit next to me?" I think he was a little (or a lot) embarassed!

Just be aware, the policy is out there and more and more often being brought up to customers. Personally I see that it's about money to SWA but they deny that. In life and in business, it always come down to money. Who are they kidding?

 

[azdizzymom]

After reading on these boards about Southwest there are probably a few things you might not have considered.

You are very lucky they let your entire family preboard with you. It sounds like small kids now board between A and B groups and at times those are limited to one adult and the child if the flight is full. You didn't mention the ages of your children, but it seems from what others have said about preboarding that you are lucky they were all allowed to preboard with you.

I am sure the employees have a hard time approaching pooh sized passengers about the possibility of purchasing two seats if the armrests don't go down. That policy is there for a reason. It doesn't matter if your family is sitting next to you or another passenger is next to you, if you go over the size of the seat then you have to purchase an extra seat. It is there for comfort of others and safety also.

It doesn't sound like they did it in a demeaning manner or made a huge production about it. They informed you of the policy so you knew it was a possibility. It appears you were fortunate to preboard the entire family so they could sit together. If they had had to board between the A's and B's (depending on kids ages) or with whatever number they received and they didn't get to sit with you and another passenger had to sit next to you, that person is entitled to the entire seat they paid for. Even if the armrest goes down, you state you spread out a little at the top....if you spread out a little over into the seat of the person next to you then you need to purchase a second seat.

I don't believe the line it is about the money. It is about the regulations of the airline and the comfort of the passengers around you...even if they are members of your own family. What happens as the kids get older and they take up their entire seats...it is not fair to them to have some of it taken up by someone sitting next to them.

I am not trying to be insulting...just trying tactfully to point out other facts that it isn't about the money. There are policies in place for a reason and the employees have to enforce them.

Glad you had a fun trip and were able to enjoy it with your family.

 

[dudspizza]

not about money, but about EVERYONE'S comfort. Southwest will refund the second seat fee if the flight is not sold out. Simple as that.

Duds

 

[r1lissa]

OP- There's no need for you to be curt or interupt the employees when they are strictly doing their job. They didn't make the policy, but it is their job to enforce it.
You said yourself that you are on the "high end of Pooh sized". They were supposed to ask you.

 

[jm-mom]

I apologize, I wasn't looking for debate or clarification on this issue, I was merely sharing my experience and thoughts about my situation. There are a lot of people who use these boards in travel planning and many of them are larger size and have asked in the past about Southwest's policy. This was the first time I've encountered use of the policy so I was merely trying to point out that it is in place, is being used, and even if no one has ever asked before, they may now. For a lot of people being asked to buy that second seat at departure is an expense that they can't afford. A little awareness and planning up front could save them a lot of grief.

I am all for air safety and in that respect understand why any airline has such a policy. What I wonder, was air travel then unsafe prior to implementing this policy? Planes have been in operation for many, many years and to my knowledge have not had a safety situation because of a passenger's size arise. If anyone knows of this, I'd love to hear about it. As for comfort, I'm all for having a comfortable flight and especially on an airline that doesn't pre-assign seats, I do understand that I many always have my children next to me to help accomodate my size. However, if comfort is a consideration to all passengers, then why isn't comfort taken into account in every way. For example, my husband, who is very "normal" size was seated across the aisle from us. The two seats next to him were taken up by also average adult size people. They were not jammed into the 3 seats but no one had extra room either. On top of that, as soon as the plane took off, the passenger in front of him reclined all the way back the entire flight. So if an airline is going to stand by comfort as a reason to implement a rule, they need to correct any and all situations that could create discomfort.

Alas, the person who says this is not about money is clearly living in a world different than mine. Bottom line, the airline wants to make money. Yes, they will refund your ticket if the flight is not full. However, in stating that I would bet they are banking on most flights being full or overbooked and passengers due a refund not actually following through with getting it in the end. Somewhere there are some SWA execs who have a careful formula in place based on complaints, safety issues, flight bookings, etc., and they have identified two things -- more and more of the American public falls into the obese category, and they can get people to pay for an extra seat by enforcing their policy. Being a cheap airline, they are still going to draw the greatest number of passengers so they ultimately have little to lose by charging for a second seat and monetarily anyway, something to gain.

Again, not trying to stir the pot, just sharing my experience and thoughts.

 

[azdizzymom]

There is no way you can compare normal sized people sitting in their seats 3 across being 'crammed'. You can't compare a person reclining their seat all the way back as causing discomfort to another passenger.

Thing in all these cases are the people fit comfortably in their own seats without encroaching on anyone's space. They airlines do cram as many seats together as possible and the space is getting smaller and smaller while Americans are getting larger and larger. They do take into consideration the amount of space each person gets, taking into consideration the reclining of a seat, a person next to you sitting in their own seat without 'hanging' over. The amount of leg room an average height person would take, etc.

Here is a list of the policies:

Here's a look at how a few different airlines deal with the "customer of size:"

* Southwest: Passengers should plan on purchasing an extra seat or risk being asked to do so at the airport by staff. If the flight is not sold out, the passenger may claim a refund.
* American: Passengers over 250 pounds should recognize that there may be limitations to the service that the airline can provide. However, it does not require that you purchase an extra seat automatically.
* United: No policy whatsoever.
* Midwest: Like Southwest, passengers are encouraged to know their needs in advance. If staff determine that two seats are required, the seat will be sold at the lowest possible fare, with a refund available if there is one or more open seats on the flight.
* Air France: Passengers with "high body mass" may receive a 25 percent discount on an extra seat, knowing that if they choose to not buy the seat, they may risk not being able to fly.
* JetBlue: You are required to buy a second seat, and there are no refunds.
* Delta: The airline "works to accommodate" passengers with special needs. Upon request and availability, it will try to make sure the next seat is unoccupied. However, if the plane is full, you will most likely be asked to leave the flight and buy a second seat on the next available flight. (You can actually count on this being a fairly typical practice on most airlines.)

If I purchased a seat and had someone taking my space I would certainly say something discretely to the flight attendant before taking off. We all pay for our seats and it is not fair to have what little space we do get taken by someone who also has only purchased one seat and is encroaching on my space. Yes, there is a polite, discrete way to handle the situation.

There should be an airline standard so people aren't treated differently on each airline. Those who require two seats shouldn't say they are discriminated because of size when asked to buy two seats. How would you feel if you were plus sized and fit in your seat and the seat next to you was taken by a high end pooh sized person who hung over and took up your space. You would certainly feel different.

It is not about the money at all, it is about the comfort of other passengers. It is not fair to anyone to have what little space there is taken by another person. You can't compare someone reclining a seat to someone hanging over into your seat. The airlines have the seats recline for the comfort of the passengers. Yes, it takes up legroom of the passenger behind but that is taken into consideration when seats are designed. We usually don't recline seats or do so only part way. The only time I will recline my seat all the way is when there are kids kicking my seat or when the person behind me pulls or hits my seat all the time.

My parents are 'pooh size' and I often wonder how comfortable they can sit in their seats on a flight. I know that neither is large enough to hang over into another persons seat.

Guess this is a hot issue. Once again OP this is not meant to stir up issues. Just pointing out facts. We can agree to disagree on this subject. I am just saying that SW did nothing wrong, it is not about money and the policy is there for a reason. That reason is for passenger comfort. Granted we can't be comfortable for long in the limited space we get, but we each pay for our small space and are entitled to our entire space just as you are entitled to your space that you paid for. If we have 'extra room' in our space it is not fair for the person next to us to take our 'extra room' just because they overflow their space.

 

[seashoreCM]

How any airline may deal with customers of size:

If you take up more space than the seat(s) you purchase, then you may be bumped without compensation.

The chances of that happening are greater if you insist on or cannot avoid pushing someone next to you.

Now you can volunteer and receive one set of compensation along with using your existing ticket(s) on the replacement flight alghouth if you didn';t purchase enough seats, the same problem could happen on the replacement flight.

Supposedly if a customer of size preboarded and the reason was not to ensure that his two seats were adjacent, then he would probably be accompanied by or would be accompanying someone else in his famly such as a child. This would guarantee sitting next to someone in his own family whereby a complaint of taking someone else's space would be highly unlikely.

As far as saving money goes, what really hurts is the time it takes to resolve customer of size problems. Many a flight incurs a delay of game penalty, er, delay of plane scenario for which some crew member must "take the late" which is an infraction that goes on his record. Hence the questions that are asked during the boarding process.

 

[mollybeasley]

We flew Southwest today and I have to add a key point for passengers who might be worried... The seats are roomier than most other airlines, and there is plenty of leg room. I have a leg problem that requires me to stretch frequently and this was easily my most comfortable flight in years.

 

[YenSid1222]

This is one reason why I do not fly on the supposed low-cost leader. They claim to have no fees, but this is clearly a "fee". If the major airlines all are able to work with people to "make it work", why can't WN? I have NEVER had an issue on AA when I go to the gate agent. They have always gone out of their way and never charged me double like WN will do.

That airline continues to dupe the American public. Also, their seat width is actually SMALLER than AA. AA seats have a width of 17.2 inches. WN = 17 (Yes, small fraction, but smaller none the less and definately NOT "roomier than most other airlines". Seat pitch averages the same for both airlines. DL is also the 17.2 inches. UA is 17 to 18 depending on A/C type. FL = 18 inches (I wonder if WN is going to rip out those roomier seats!) and VX is 19.7!!. Looks to me like WN is again duping the world.

 

[kaytieeldr]

OP, it's not about the money. Look at azdizzymom's list. If anything, with JetBlue, it's "about the money". Southwest's policy is that each ticket entitles its holder to one and only one FULL seat. It's primarily about passenger comfort and value, but also about passenger - not flight - safety. As stated above, if the flight has even one empty seat, the Customer of Size who purchased two seats in accordance with the airline's policy (either in advance or at the gate) can submit a request for a refund and will get the refund.

No, analysts aren't formulating the likelihood of not having to refund customers of size. Yes, naturally, company owners want to sell all seats. That's just good business. Frankly, with Southwest's liberal crediting policy, there's no way to know until, often, the door closes, whether a flight is 100% full.

Passengers who disagree with this policy are free to choose other airlines.

 

[Super 27]

Looks to me like WN is again duping the world.

That's not really a fair accusation at all. They have an entire section on their website that explains the customer of size policy in detail and outlines the steps necessary to book and receive a refund for the second seat. Southwest isn't trying to "dupe" anyone - they are simply establishing and enforcing a policy that ensures proper accommodations are provided for all passengers.

 

[YenSid1222]

That's not really a fair accusation at all. They have an entire section on their website that explains the customer of size policy in detail and outlines the steps necessary to book and receive a refund for the second seat. Southwest isn't trying to "dupe" anyone - they are simply establishing and enforcing a policy that ensures proper accommodations are provided for all passengers.

Yes, but the other airlines are able to handle it without locking up someone's money. If I can fly AA and they can take care of me WITHOUT charging me and doing it with grace, why can't WN? Just watch an episode of "Airline" to see how subjective their agents get, judging people at the counter. It can only be described as a power trip. They tout how great their "service" is, and yet they get off on this one? It is bad business and will slowly start to kill them...as is witnessed lately as their once golden reputation continues to fade. They are the 800 pound gorilla in the airline room...so I guess they need to purchase an extra seat too and "submit" it to be refunded later.

The word about their practices is getting out. The hedged fuel is almost gone. They are now servicing places like LGA and soon EWR, so that on time reputation is already slipping. Welcome to the real world WN.

And PLEASE someone at WN change that horrid livery. Not only bad practices, but an eye sore too.

 

[pearlieq]

Yes, they will refund your ticket if the flight is not full. However, in stating that I would bet they are banking on most flights being full or overbooked and passengers due a refund not actually following through with getting it in the end.

This has not been the case for me at all.

I have used Southwest's *** policy literally dozens of times. I have never been denied a refund. It's a quick, simple process to claim in and I've often been given a sheet of instructions from the ticket agent or the gate employee as to how to claim it.

I have never noticed any effort to wiggle out of offering refunds.

Southwest's policy is actually the most generous one out there. If you take up more than one seat, every airline reserves the right to make you purchase a second seat. Southwest is the only one (to my knowledge) that will refund that second seat.

 

[pearlieq]

If I can fly AA and they can take care of me WITHOUT charging me and doing it with grace, why can't WN?

AA does not at all guarantee that they can "take care of you". I would never fly anywhere hoping for a gate agent to handle my problem. The last time I flew AA I bought an extra seat and it was all I could do to get them to assign my seats together. While your experiences might have been good, there is nothing assuring me of the same.

Also, it is not the airline's duty to accommodate me. I am fat, not disabled. If I want to go around preaching "my fat, my business" then I had better be prepared to put my money where my mouth is.

I believe it is wrong to take up more than one seat and expect the airline to assume the cost. We all know how big airline seats are. If you want to fly and you take up more than one seat, then you buy more than one seat. No one is entitled to more than what they purchased.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Southwest's policy. It's sensible, it's generous, and it's administered well. It's actually very good business and is one of the reasons I'm a fairly loyal customer.

 

[azdizzymom]

aa does not at all guarantee that they can "take care of you". I would never fly anywhere hoping for a gate agent to handle my problem. The last time i flew aa i bought an extra seat and it was all i could do to get them to assign my seats together. While your experiences might have been good, there is nothing assuring me of the same.

Also, it is not the airline's duty to accommodate me. I am fat, not disabled. If i want to go around preaching "my fat, my business" then i had better be prepared to put my money where my mouth is.

I believe it is wrong to take up more than one seat and expect the airline to assume the cost. We all know how big airline seats are. If you want to fly and you take up more than one seat, then you buy more than one seat. No one is entitled to more than what they purchased.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with southwest's policy. It's sensible, it's generous, and it's administered well. It's actually very good business and is one of the reasons i'm a fairly loyal customer.

very nicely worded!

 

[jlovesee]

I third that. No one should ever get more then what they pay for, period. Sorry.



Jennifer

 

[Buzz's Buddy]

I am by no means thin, but I fit comfortably in my seat without impacting anyone on either side of me.

Airline seats are small enough that no one should have to be made more uncomfortable by someone who is spilling over into their seat. I think Southwest's policy is very fair, and the fact that they offer refunds proves it!

My father-in-law is a very big man and would definitely require a 2nd seat. Knowing that, he chooses not to fly.

 

[sesame_123]

I will be flying southwest in a couple of weeks and after reading through their policies, my problem stems from the statement that says they can't guarantee that my infant son (who I bought a ticket for) and I will be next to each other but they can guarantee an empty seat next to me if I get a costumer of size ticket. Talk about safety issues. Here you go stranger if there is an emergency please take my son off the plane as I will be seating 4 rows back next to an empty seat. And my 4 year old will be 2 row in front of you while my husband is 2 rows in front of that. Sorry if I don't buy the it's safer for small children to have the entire seat to themselves and not be next to their parent so that their parent can sit next to nothing.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Well, first, you should have started a new thread about this - since it's a separate topic.

But since you didn't...

You CHOSE to purchase tickets on Southwest, knowing its open seating situation. Even so, you have options.

You can purchase Early Bird Check In for $10 per passenger per direction. Southwest will check you in before the "hoi-polloi" is able to check in at the 24 hour mark. You will all be able to board after the business travelers and the frequent fliers, but before most of the passengers. You should easily be able to find three seats together (or two and two, if you have another adult). Remember the car seat must be in the window seat.

You can, instead, take advantage of Family Boarding. This will - or should - allow the three of you to board between the A and B groups. If you head to the back of the plane, you should be able to find three seats together, easily.

 

[Lewisc]

I will be flying southwest in a couple of weeks and after reading through their policies, my problem stems from the statement that says they can't guarantee that my infant son (who I bought a ticket for) and I will be next to each other but they can guarantee an empty seat next to me if I get a costumer of size ticket. Talk about safety issues. Here you go stranger if there is an emergency please take my son off the plane as I will be seating 4 rows back next to an empty seat. And my 4 year old will be 2 row in front of you while my husband is 2 rows in front of that. Sorry if I don't buy the it's safer for small children to have the entire seat to themselves and not be next to their parent so that their parent can sit next to nothing.

You're misquoting some of SWs statements. SW doesn't say it's safer for a child to have an entire seat, SW says every passenger, including a child, is entitled to their entire seat.

SW still offers family mid-boarding. A parent will be able to sit next to an infant child.

Passengers who want to sit next to their traveling companions can pay for EBCI. Doesn't guarantee an "A" BP but virtually guarantees boarding early enough to get seats together. Getting a BP at T-24 still gets almost all passengers a BP low enough to sit together.