Southern pride gone wrong!

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Lincoln hated the idea of slavery and was against it but in fact did write the letter to Greely. The idea is that as much as he opposed slavery he loved the Union more and would do anything to preserve it, including allowing slavery to continue....

While I agree with this statement, I don't think that you have thought through the implications. We have had another president in recent memory who was also willing to subvert the US Constitution for "our own good". Our laws are supposed to stop that sort of thing, but they can't always do so - such is the power of the executive branch "in times of war" - even if the executives themselves create the war.

Essentially, Lincoln put his vision of America ahead of the laws of America. He even put his vision of America above his own ideals, and the lives of millions. History has presented the world with many men like Lincoln, but most are reviled. Lincoln is beloved because the people are too lazy to learn the truth.

 

[brerrabbit]

Never said I agreed with Lincoln, merely that historians say this is why he did it. His actions were clearly in violation of many parts of the constitution and while many say how great a president he was, many long time Southerners hate the man. My grandparents did not think to highly of him and it was my grandmother's grandfather that fought for the Confederacy. She heard many stories growing up about the war.

 

[Spoodleink]

yeah I can see that. It was a revolution. The South was underestimated and almost succeeded. They were invaded and stood their ground for State's rights. Like the history of our name:
Many believe it to be a nickname given during the U.S. Civil War, because of the state's importance on the Confederate side, and the fact that the troops "stuck to their ranks like they had tar on their heels".



You know what it means! And howdy neighbor! My DH swears that Bojangles is the only fast food place that makes "REAL" sweet tea. I tend to think that Chick-Fil-A does a pretty good job.

They didn't almost succeed after the Battle of Antietam they had no chance of winning the war. It was a waiting game the North was bound to win. If your going to go on about being accurate about the war you need to do it all the way.

 

[bunkkinsmom]

Stop vilifying the flag that represents American slavery? I don't think so. Maybe one day people will stop vilifying the swastika. Could happen, you never know.

The Confederate Battle Flag doesn't represent slavery. If you feel that it does, then you would have to agree that so does Old Glory. Where do you think the Southerners got all of those slaves? The Union controlled the trade.

It doesn't? Oh ok, for a minute there I thought the Civil War actually happened. Thanks!

Wow. What a jacked up statement.

So the "old south" without the flag doesn't represent slavery to you? or is it the "old south" in general?

That flag didn't stand for slavery--didn't then and it doesn't now. The American flag flew over slavery much longer than that flag did.

Amen.

ITA Its amazing to me that there are so many that want to just immediately start putting down the south and anything that represents it but yet when a southerner begins to defend their region they are immediately "still fighting the war".

I would put money on BamaFan being considered a racist because they don't like Lincoln. Gosh...... that seems so familiar to what I've heard recently!
ITA with you, most people are very quick to judge. As my MopMop says, ye without dog poo on your shoes take the first step on the white carpet.

 

[YodaGirl]

I think you will find, to the majority of people, the confederate flag, does, indeed, represent racism and hatred. I actually think that the people who think it doesn't are in the minority. It has been a symbol which has long been associated with the KKK, and I am sure that everyone is VERY clear on their beliefs. Actually, I think you are having difficulty seeing past your own bias. Simply because you insist that it does not represent these things to you does not make it so for everyone. As a matter of fact, in my area, it is widely referred to as a "klan flag."

...and yes, people are overly sensitive about symbols such as swastikas and southern flags, particularly people whose relatives were tortured and killed in gas chambers under this symbol, or people whose relatives were lynched or tarred and feathered or drug to death behind moving vehicles under that flag.

The KKK carries Confederate Battle flags, and they burn crosses. I'm not going to stop wearing my cross necklace, and I don't think that anyone would suggest that I should. It's well-understood what the reference truly means. Same thing goes for the flag. I don't give enough thought to the Klan to care about what they think or how they twist symbols. At the end of the day, I know what both of those stand for, and neither one stands for hate.

So the "old south" without the flag doesn't represent slavery to you? or is it the "old south" in general?

That flag didn't stand for slavery--didn't then and it doesn't now. The American flag flew over slavery much longer than that flag did.

 

[PeterPan09]

My AP history teacher in HS told us that there has never been, and probably never will be a war fought that wasn't really about money and power. Forget noble ideals-it's always been and always will be about keeping the powerful in power and keeping the money in the hands of the folks that already have it. Sure, there are good things that can come from the "right" side winning a war, but never assume that those good things were the reason that the war started in the first place.

Thank you Mr Illiano, loved every day of your class and have loved history ever since.

As for the lady with the flag, she knows EXACTLY what she's doing and it has nothing to do with southern pride. It has everything to do with garnering attention for herself, and she's getting exactly what she wants. Sure, she's got a right to put it out there, but I've also got a right to think she's an attention seeker and insensitive to the feelings of others for doing it.

 

[CandyMandy]

Quick, all you non-southerners:

what flag is this? Is it O.K. to fly it?

 

[FireDancer]

Quick, all you non-southerners:

what flag is this? Is it O.K. to fly it?

Isn't that the flash I posted earlier, the first flag of the CSA? There were a couple diferent star configurations but that's what it is.

 

[DarthKTrava]

i did. read the book I linked.

The book you linked, Guns Of The South, was an alternate history novel written by Harry Turtledove. He grasped a fact (I don't recall which one as it's been years since I read it) and then changed "history" based on a "what if" scenario. Perhaps, it was the time traveler with the AK-47 that he gave/sold to someone in the South who used it to win the war.... I don't recall if there was also anything with "Lee's plan for emancipation" or not....

 

[DeaverTex]

I suspect that if the Confederacy HAD won the Civil War, then in spite of anybody's plans, slavery would have remained in place. I'd like to think otherwise, but there it is. Slavery was firmly entrenched, and it was a source of labor that the plantation owners in particular weren't anxious to have to replace. It was a crappy source of labor, because it would have been much cheaper to hire workers, pay them miserably, and not have to care for them when they were sick, too young, or too old to work. But, holding slaves was one of the hallmarks of the agricultural aristocracy, and had been since they first emerged.

And by the way, that flag is indeed the first official flag of the Confederacy. I believe (not taking the time to check, sorry) that it may have been the ONLY official flag. You can see why it was called the Stars and Bars. The second flag was solid white, with the Confederate battle flag (the one that's so controversial) in the top corner by the hoist. It didn't work, because unless there was enough breeze to spread it, the thing looked like a plain white flag. That flag was nicknamed the "Stainless Banner." They finally put a red bar at the fly end, but by then it was pretty much over. Most Army units used the battle flag in place of national colors.

I do indeed wish that the KKK and gangs of skinheads hadn't appropriated the Confederate battle flag. They've managed to disgrace the symbol of a proud and determined army, that earned and deserved every bit of respect it got from the Federal forces. But, thdy DID appropriate it, and they HAVE disgraced it.

And in spite of what some folks, including people I know personally, might say, the Confederate States of America did lose the war, in spite of everything that valor and determination could do. And the country is probably better off as a result.

 

[princessmom29]

The book you linked, Guns Of The South, was an alternate history novel written by Harry Turtledove. He grasped a fact (I don't recall which one as it's been years since I read it) and then changed "history" based on a "what if" scenario. Perhaps, it was the time traveler with the AK-47 that he gave/sold to someone in the South who used it to win the war.... I don't recall if there was also anything with "Lee's plan for emancipation" or not....

try the SECOND book link. That was the one being discussed in the post you quoted. The first one was just the first thing I could grab quickly that I knew referenced what I was looking for.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I suspect that if the Confederacy HAD won the Civil War, then in spite of anybody's plans, slavery would have remained in place. I'd like to think otherwise, but there it is.....

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you stand pretty much alone in it. Here is a great article that discusses this point, and many more: A Jeffersonian View of the Civil War

An excerpt:

In the standard account, the Civil War was an outcome of our Founding Fathers failure to address the institution of slavery in a republic that proclaimed in its Declaration of Independence that "all men are created equal." But was it really necessary to wage a four-year war to abolish slavery in the United States, one that ravaged half of the country and destroyed a generation of American men? Only the United States and Haiti freed their slaves by war. Every other country in the New World that had slaves, such as Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Cuba, Ecuador, Mexico, Peru, Uruguay, and Venezuela, freed them in the 19th century peacefully.

 

[FireDancer]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but you stand pretty much alone in it. Here is a great article that discusses this point, and many more: A Jeffersonian View of the Civil War

I think the truth is that slavery would have stuck around a while and eventually would have been eliminated. It might have been 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years but it would have eventually been phased out. It almost certainly would not have ended with the war had the south won.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

... It almost certainly would not have ended with the war had the south won.

Agreed - that is a given.

 

[badblackpug]

The KKK carries Confederate Battle flags, and they burn crosses. I'm not going to stop wearing my cross necklace, and I don't think that anyone would suggest that I should. It's well-understood what the reference truly means. Same thing goes for the flag. I don't give enough thought to the Klan to care about what they think or how they twist symbols. At the end of the day, I know what both of those stand for, and neither one stands for hate.

Maybe the klan doesn't concern you, but it does concern a lot of non white and/or non christian people. I am talking about common usage. The cross is much more in evidence in common usage by christians than it is by the klan. Unfortunately, the confederate flag is much more in common usage by racial supremacy groups. As a matter of fact, I have never met anyone who uses that symbol or the swastika who does not espouse some sort of racial supremacy theory.

I don't understand why people cannot see that no matter what the original meaning the confederate flag was or is it has been used, and, maybe, unfortunately, b@stardized by a hate group. Many, many black people have been terrorized under the guise of this symbol. It is beyond me why people cannot understand why it has a negative connotation to many, many people.

It is the same as the swastika. If I were to get a swastika tattoo, or fly a swastika flag outside my home I would fully expect people to have the belief that I am an anti-semite at the very least. I would never expect that the majority of people in the U.S. would look at the swastika and think, "She is proud of her German heritage." or, "She is wishing me good luck."

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...I don't understand why people cannot see that no matter what the original meaning the confederate flag was or is it has been used, and, maybe, unfortunately, b@stardized by a hate group. Many, many black people have been terrorized under the guise of this symbol. It is beyond me why people cannot understand why it has a negative connotation to many, many people...

Are you as opposed to the Bible, Torah and Koran? They have been used in much the same way over the centuries, with far more casualties. I wonder why they have not been stigmatized in the same way.

 

[badblackpug]

Are you as opposed to the Bible, Torah and Koran? They have been used in much the same way over the centuries, with far more casualties. I wonder why they have not been stigmatized in the same way.

I may well be, but that is a religious discussion and, therefor, banned by the Dis.....

You can stick your head in the sand all you want and say that the flag is supposed to symbolize this or that. You can keep your head in the sand and say that it symbolizes this or that to me, so it must symbolize this or that to everyone. The truth of the matter is that to a lot of people, and black people in particular, that flag has many, many ugly connotations. This is a flag that was used, and is still used in many places, to terrorize non white/non christian people. There is no denying that fact.

I used to live in a neighborhood of Philadelphia commonly known as "the gayborhood." It is an area that has a large, vocal, and openly gay community. If I had a problem with them I could stick my head in the sand and say that my neighbors Michael and Tim fly that rainbow flag because they are artistic, or that they refer to themselves as partners because they own a business, or that they call themselves gay because they are happy. Ignoring the fact that all these things have more than one common usage does not mean that it does not exist. I could argue until I'm blue in the face that gay originally meant happy, but that doesn't change the fact that they are homosexual.

It doesn't matter why the civil war was fought. Lee and Lincoln's policies don't matter. States rights don't matter. None of that is germane to this discussion. What does matter is that this woman chose to prominently display a symbol that she, unless she has lived under a rock for the past 50 years, knew would be offensive to her neighbors. When they made efforts to block it from view she made it a point to display it even more prominently. This makes her, at the very least, a bad neighbor and not a very nice person. In my opinion, and probably many others, her actions are much deeper than this.

Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't make it right.

 

[YodaGirl]

Maybe the klan doesn't concern you, but it does concern a lot of non white and/or non christian people. I am talking about common usage. The cross is much more in evidence in common usage by christians than it is by the klan. Unfortunately, the confederate flag is much more in common usage by racial supremacy groups. As a matter of fact, I have never met anyone who uses that symbol or the swastika who does not espouse some sort of racial supremacy theory.

I don't understand why people cannot see that no matter what the original meaning the confederate flag was or is it has been used, and, maybe, unfortunately, b@stardized by a hate group. Many, many black people have been terrorized under the guise of this symbol. It is beyond me why people cannot understand why it has a negative connotation to many, many people.

It is the same as the swastika. If I were to get a swastika tattoo, or fly a swastika flag outside my home I would fully expect people to have the belief that I am an anti-semite at the very least. I would never expect that the majority of people in the U.S. would look at the swastika and think, "She is proud of her German heritage." or, "She is wishing me good luck."

I didn't say that the Klan doesn't concern me; I said that I don't care what they think. They may use the flag for hate, but that is not what the flag stands for. I find it reprehensible what the Klan does and has done. They may fly the Confederate Battle flag, burn crosses, and preach from the Bible (let me say that there theology is skewed, to say the least), but that doesn't mean those three things stand primarily for that purpose. Some idiots (Klan members) might try to make it look like that, but it's not. They can say the grass is purple. It doesn't make it so.

The swastika stood for the Nazi regime, not necessarily the country of Germany. The Confederate Battle flag, as well as the Stars and Bars, flew for a country/troops. Yes, some people in that country owned slaves. So did people in the northern states. The Stars and Bars doesn't stand for slavery any more than Old Glory does.

I don't agree with slavery. Yes, my ancestors owned slaves. No, I don't agree with it. I can be proud of my heritage while not agreeing with everything that is connected with it.

 

[YodaGirl]

I may well be, but that is a religious discussion and, therefor, banned by the Dis.....

You can stick your head in the sand all you want and say that the flag is supposed to symbolize this or that. You can keep your head in the sand and say that it symbolizes this or that to me, so it must symbolize this or that to everyone. The truth of the matter is that to a lot of people, and black people in particular, that flag has many, many ugly connotations. This is a flag that was used, and is still used in many places, to terrorize non white/non christian people. There is no denying that fact.

I used to live in a neighborhood of Philadelphia commonly known as "the gayborhood." It is an area that has a large, vocal, and openly gay community. If I had a problem with them I could stick my head in the sand and say that my neighbors Michael and Tim fly that rainbow flag because they are artistic, or that they refer to themselves as partners because they own a business, or that they call themselves gay because they are happy. Ignoring the fact that all these things have more than one common usage does not mean that it does not exist. I could argue until I'm blue in the face that gay originally meant happy, but that doesn't change the fact that they are homosexual.

It doesn't matter why the civil war was fought. Lee and Lincoln's policies don't matter. States rights don't matter. None of that is germane to this discussion. What does matter is that this woman chose to prominently display a symbol that she, unless she has lived under a rock for the past 50 years, knew would be offensive to her neighbors. When they made efforts to block it from view she made it a point to display it even more prominently. This makes her, at the very least, a bad neighbor and not a very nice person. In my opinion, and probably many others, her actions are much deeper than this.

Just because someone has the right to do something doesn't make it right.

If the rainbow flag had stood for artistry for many years prior to being adopted by the homosexual community, you'd have a point.

 

[Mama-san]

Not to interupt the current discussion, but I thought it was interesting at Myrtle Beach this summer when I saw an approx. 8 y.o. Afro American boy playing in the surf with a confederate flag boogie board.

Carry on!