Southern pride gone wrong!

[Wishing on a star]

Yes, having a discussion with those who fail to admit reality and facts is, indeed, beyond expectation.

With that, I am now heading off-line for the night.

 

[Wall-E1]

Most of the world firmly believed in slavery. It was part of every culture in the world. Every single one. There are slave owners in all of our pasts, just as there are slaves. To suggest that every person on the planet was evil because of slavery is beyong arrogant - it is ignorant. It makes pretenses. But I can see that this discussion is beyond you, so I'll save the rest.

Peace...

I guess I am not only arrogant, but also ignorant. I always considered slavery, or owning another human being as being an atrocity. But hey, like you pointed out, "most of the world believed in slavery". So, if I understand you correctly... because many cultures throughout history have engaged in slavery, it cannot be considered to be heinous, atrocious, or evil. And anyone who disagrees and refers to slavery as heinous, atrocious, or evil is beyond arrogant. They are ignorant.

Once again I must thank you BamaFan. You have again enlightened me on my ignorant view that slavery is evil. Since a lot of people owned slaves throughout history, that equates to slavery not being evil.
Your world and historical viewpoints are indeed refreshing to my arrogant and ignorant mind.

 

[DISNEYSIX]

Someone explain it to her plain: her "heritage" is one of oppression. And her side lost.

You have obviously been brainwashed by the government into thinking that the War Between the States was about slavery. It was rather about the intrusive nature of big government and how the South was against it. However, you are correct when you state that "we" (and I mean all of us) lost. Just look at the oppressive government that we have today. Talk about being on the losing side!!

 

[princessmom29]

I guess I am not only arrogant, but also ignorant. I always considered slavery, or owning another human being as being an atrocity. But hey, like you pointed out, "most of the world believed in slavery". So, if I understand you correctly... because many cultures throughout history have engaged in slavery, it cannot be considered to be heinous, atrocious, or evil. And anyone who disagrees and refers to slavery as heinous, atrocious, or evil is beyond arrogant. They are ignorant.

Once again I must thank you BamaFan. You have again enlightened me on my ignorant view that slavery is evil. Since a lot of people owned slaves throughout history, that equates to slavery not being evil.
Your world and historical viewpoints are indeed refreshing to my arrogant and ignorant mind.

No, you have it all wrong. What bamafan is saying, as I read it, is that the American South is one of MANY prevailing cultures that have practiced slavery at one time or another in their history, and was not the only culture still practicing at the time, but they are the only culture still being vilified becuase of that practice. In fact it is correct that every major culture has slavery in its past, yet we don't see their pride in their heritage as supporting slavery. Iti s an interesting double standard. I don't know how you made the leap to that meaning it is an acceptable practice???

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

...Once again I must thank you BamaFan....

Like I said, any time.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

No, you have it all wrong. What bamafan is saying, as I read it, is that the American South is one of MANY prevailing cultures that have practiced slavery at one time or another in their history, and was not the only culture still practicing at the time, but they are the only culture still being vilified becuase of that practice. In fact it is correct that every major culture has slavery in its past, yet we don't see their pride in their heritage as supporting slavery. Iti s an interesting double standard. I don't know how you made the leap to that meaning it is an acceptable practice???

Let them spew their hate and bigotry. They don't get it because they don't want to get it.

 

[princessmom29]

Let them spew their hate and bigotry. They don't get it because they don't want to get it.

I know, I know. I really need to learn when to accept that hate and bigotry is a lost cause sometimes.

 

[FireDancer]

No, you have it all wrong. What bamafan is saying, as I read it, is that the American South is one of MANY prevailing cultures that have practiced slavery at one time or another in their history, and was not the only culture still practicing at the time, but they are the only culture still being vilified becuase of that practice. In fact it is correct that every major culture has slavery in its past, yet we don't see their pride in their heritage as supporting slavery. Iti s an interesting double standard. I don't know how you made the leap to that meaning it is an acceptable practice???

I think it is important to try and look at historical events through the eyes and with the mindset that was prevalent at the time. I don't think that makes it morally ok to hold slaves, not in Egypt, not in Rome, and not in the Antebellum south, but for most of history slavery was viewed very differently than it is viewed now.

This true of most historic practices, not just slavery. Colonialism, imperialism, the de facto slavery that was the feudal system, all are now viewed as wrong but all were completely normal at the time and even encouraged.

I don't want it to seem like an endorsement for any of those things, including slavery, but I think it over-simplifies the issues of the past to try and apply our evolved understanding of freedom and equality to them. Heck, even with that evolved understanding we don't always do a good job of application. Just ask someone who wants to marry another consenting adult that happens to have the same genitals.

I'm sure there are practices that are common now that in two hundred years will be looked at as barbaric but because we are living in with out current POV most people probably couldn't even predict what those things are.

 

[DISNEYSIX]

Also, many of the comments here are meaningless unless one takes into consideration that the biggest 'states right' that the south was fighting for is the right for white citizens to practice slavery.

Yep, and all those poor southern boys picked up arms so they could keep their slaves. LOL.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Stupidity should be painful, as should willful ignorance.

 

[Wall-E1]

No, you have it all wrong. What bamafan is saying, as I read it, is that the American South is one of MANY prevailing cultures that have practiced slavery at one time or another in their history, and was not the only culture still practicing at the time, but they are the only culture still being vilified becuase of that practice. In fact it is correct that every major culture has slavery in its past, yet we don't see their pride in their heritage as supporting slavery. Iti s an interesting double standard.

I don't think I have it all wrong. I think I have it exactly right. I don't care whether it is the deep south or Nazi Germany. I find the practice of slavery revolting and vile. I don't see a double standard. I don't see Germany celebrating their heritage by raising the Nazi flag to celebrate their "middle class pride". They understand that that most people associate that flag with something much more heinous. I think most people would agree that slavery no matter how prevalent, or in whatever society, is a disgusting practice.

I don't know how you made the leap to that meaning it is an acceptable practice???

I made that leap by reading this statement in which BamaFan excuses the evils of slavery because it has a long and storied past...

Most of the world firmly believed in slavery. It was part of every culture in the world. Every single one. There are slave owners in all of our pasts, just as there are slaves. To suggest that every person on the planet was evil because of slavery is beyong arrogant - it is ignorant. It makes pretenses. But I can see that this discussion is beyond you, so I'll save the rest.

 

[cornflake]

I think it is important to try and look at historical events through the eyes and with the mindset that was prevalent at the time. I don't think that makes it morally ok to hold slaves, not in Egypt, not in Rome, and not in the Antebellum south, but for most of history slavery was viewed very differently than it is viewed now.

This true of most historic practices, not just slavery. Colonialism, imperialism, the de facto slavery that was the feudal system, all are now viewed as wrong but all were completely normal at the time and even encouraged.

I don't want it to seem like an endorsement for any of those things, including slavery, but I think it over-simplifies the issues of the past to try and apply our evolved understanding of freedom and equality to them.

I'm sure there are practices that are common now that in two hundred years will be looked at as barbaric but because we are living in with out current POV most people probably couldn't even predict what those things are.

I think we can probably predict what they are... because the things you mention, while certainly common and widely accepted, were not lauded by everyone.

If they had been, they would likely still exist.

They ended BECAUSE people were against them at the time they were normal and accepted and encouraged. In every one of those instances, and certainly in more, it took someone overturning the happy apple cart when frustrations among the oppressed boiled over - and they boiled over because, though the things were accepted, normal and encouraged, a decent segment of people knew they shouldn't be.

 

[FireDancer]

I think we can probably predict what they are... because the things you mention, while certainly common and widely accepted, were not lauded by everyone.

If they had been, they would likely still exist.

They ended BECAUSE people were against them at the time they were normal and accepted and encouraged. In every one of those instances, and certainly in more, it took someone overturning the happy apple cart when frustrations among the oppressed boiled over - and they boiled over because, though the things were accepted, normal and encouraged, a decent segment of people knew they shouldn't be.

Absolutely. It is a pattern that has repeated itself many times and I don't see any reason to think it won't continue to do so.

 

[badblackpug]

Agian, that means you have not been educated as to what that flag truly stands for. I am proud to stand behind its true meaning, the right of states to retain the rights given them in the constitution. If you have a problem with the true meaning of the flag, that is fine, but please know WHAT you are really hating!

What the flag originally stood for and what it means to a vast majority of the population, NOW, are two entirely separate things. Like the swastika which originally stood for life, sun, power, strength, and good luck, it is a symbol that has been *******ized by a group whose main agenda is hate. Whether you agree, or not, the confederate flag has, in popular culture, become associated with groups that promote racism. Common usages change with time. 100 years ago if you said someone was "gay" everyone would assume them to be happy.

This woman, as ignorant and as inflammatory as she may be, has every right to fly this flag. It is insensitive to her neighbors, considering a good majority of them probably have ancestors who were owned by people who flew the same flag, but she is within her "rights" to do it. It doesn't make it right for her to do it, but she is within her rights. Morality cannot be legislated.

My question is this: Considering the fact that the original meaning of the swastika has been over shadowed by its use by the nazis, much in the same way the original meaning of the confederate flag has been over shadowed by its use by certain white supremacy groups, what would be your 1st impression of me if you drove by my house and saw a flag with a swastika on it hanging outside my house?

Would anyone's initial thought (or any thought) actually be "she is proud of her German heritage?" (I am not German BTW)

 

[bunkkinsmom]

Ok, so by the time I got to the 9th page I had about 20 posts quoted and ready to respond!

But I scrapped them. Figured I would just say what is on my mind.

I am southern, NC to be exact. Tarheels. I would hope that we could all agree that racism and slavery are not solely rooted in Southern culture. I would hope that we could also agree that this lady is being stubborn and she knows that she is provoking responses. She freely admitted she likes the attention. Does that make her racist? I would NEVER fly a confederate flag, simply because I know what it means to some people. It does not, however, mean that to me. It is fact that the cause of the civil war was not slavery. Lincoln said it himself. But that is really neither here nor there in this case, the flag means different things to different people and she flew it knowing full well it was going to be a problem. However, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have the right to fly it.

And all of you European Americans whose ancestors settled here generations ago, your ancestors' hands aren't clean just because they were on the Union side. They were all guilty as well, of genocide. But don't worry, I'm trying my best to make it up to my Apache husband for you

 

[YodaGirl]

No, you have it all wrong. What bamafan is saying, as I read it, is that the American South is one of MANY prevailing cultures that have practiced slavery at one time or another in their history, and was not the only culture still practicing at the time, but they are the only culture still being vilified becuase of that practice. In fact it is correct that every major culture has slavery in its past, yet we don't see their pride in their heritage as supporting slavery. Iti s an interesting double standard. I don't know how you made the leap to that meaning it is an acceptable practice???

Ok, so by the time I got to the 9th page I had about 20 posts quoted and ready to respond!

But I scrapped them. Figured I would just say what is on my mind.

I am southern, NC to be exact. Tarheels. I would hope that we could all agree that racism and slavery are not solely rooted in Southern culture. I would hope that we could also agree that this lady is being stubborn and she knows that she is provoking responses. She freely admitted she likes the attention. Does that make her racist? I would NEVER fly a confederate flag, simply because I know what it means to some people. It does not, however, mean that to me. It is fact that the cause of the civil war was not slavery. Lincoln said it himself. But that is really neither here nor there in this case, the flag means different things to different people and she flew it knowing full well it was going to be a problem. However, that doesn't mean that she doesn't have the right to fly it.

And all of you European Americans whose ancestors settled here generations ago, your ancestors' hands aren't clean just because they were on the Union side. They were all guilty as well, of genocide. But don't worry, I'm trying my best to make it up to my Apache husband for you

 

[mhsjax]

Well bless her heart. (said with a northern inflection rather than a southern inflection)

Yes, but to really mean it, you need to say it will strong southern drawl. It has SOOOOOO much more meaning that way. YOu can also add it, "well isn't that nice" it has a lovely other meaning as well. Ones you can and will get points for, if said in it's true form.

 

[luvsJack]

I beg to differ. I was born and raised in Charleston, SC (Summerville is only 20 miles away). They are the epitome of the Deep South in every sense of the word. There is culture and Southern charm but there is also blatant racism there just like in the other Southern states.

There is blatant racism the world over. The south has no patent on it.

And if someone only wanted to look close enough they would find for every racist, there are many more non-racist people in the south. Its just a matter of what you want to find.

 

[metalis4ever]

Most of the world firmly believed in slavery. It was part of every culture in the world. Every single one. There are slave owners in all of our pasts, just as there are slaves. To suggest that every person on the planet was evil because of slavery is beyong arrogant - it is ignorant. It makes pretenses. But I can see that this discussion is beyond you, so I'll save the rest.

Peace...

I agree with your statement because it is indeed a factual one!! I must add that much like everything else Slavery evolved over the years and became measurably more barbaric and worse from the 16th - 19th Century.

The "triangle trade" that the Pre-American Revolution Colonists and the Americans employed was indeed heinous. The number 1 export out of 17th Century South Carolina wasn't tobacco, it was Humans. We exported Native Americans to the Caribbean in exchange for Africans. This was after of course trying to enslave Natives did not work because they could easily escape. I say "We" because we own our past and should know our past so we don't repeat our mistakes.

So although the Civil War was not about abolishing Slavery, it resulted in it so at the end of the day we have to applaud the Abolitionists who were able to break through and make changes to benefit our Society as a whole. Of course the Industrial Revolution brought a whole other set of labor issues, but that is another discussion for another day...But child labor and unfair wages is a major step up from Human Slavery

The point in the mini History lesson is that we are not perfect and we never will be perfect, but as others have said there will always be a minority of individuals with loud enough voices to make the changes that need to be made to progress Our Society.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

What the flag originally stood for and what it means to a vast majority of the population, NOW, are two entirely separate things. Like the swastika which originally stood for life, sun, power, strength, and good luck, it is a symbol that has been *******ized by a group whose main agenda is hate. Whether you agree, or not, the confederate flag has, in popular culture, become associated with groups that promote racism. Common usages change with time. 100 years ago if you said someone was "gay" everyone would assume them to be happy.

This woman, as ignorant and as inflammatory as she may be, has every right to fly this flag. It is insensitive to her neighbors, considering a good majority of them probably have ancestors who were owned by people who flew the same flag, but she is within her "rights" to do it. It doesn't make it right for her to do it, but she is within her rights. Morality cannot be legislated.

My question is this: Considering the fact that the original meaning of the swastika has been over shadowed by its use by the nazis, much in the same way the original meaning of the confederate flag has been over shadowed by its use by certain white supremacy groups, what would be your 1st impression of me if you drove by my house and saw a flag with a swastika on it hanging outside my house?

Would anyone's initial thought (or any thought) actually be "she is proud of her German heritage?" (I am not German BTW)

Of course morality can be legislated; governments at all levels do it every day. In fact, most laws on the books specifically legislate morality. The government tells us that we cannot steal, we cannot murder, we cannot drive while under the influence of controlled substances, we cannot posses or use drugs, that corporations have to release their financial information to their shareholders and cannot lie or distort their financial statements and that we must pay taxes to support the government that protects those rights on our behalf, even if and when we don't agree with how the money is being used. It even legislates that we cannot use our constitutionally protected right to free speech to yell fire in a crowded theater because of the risk of harm to others.

What the laws of the USA cannot do is restrict speech, or "equivalent speech", when that speech does not pose a clear and immediate danger of physical harm to another. In other words, we cannot legislate against hurt feelings.

But that, in my opinion, does not make the neighbor any less racist, ignorant and foolish for flying a flag that represents oppression and hatred to the majority of people. It just gives her the right to be racist, ignorant and foolish.