Something Happened in DD's Pre-K Class

[SarahKate]

I wanted to get some feedback from all of you great Dis'r Moms!

My DD is 4 and she goes to the day care that's associated w/ the hospital I work at. I have always had great experiences there and it's where DD has gone since she was 10 weeks old.

It just feels like now that she is getting older I'm not as happy w/ her school anymore. I think it's probably normal, because as they get older they are getting to be more independent and don't get the same type of nurturing they did before.

Ok, here's the story.

DD just changed rooms Monday. She is in a room of about 16 other kids her age and there are 2 teachers.

On Wednesday nite I noticed that she had a piece of masking tape on her dress, across her chest, about 2 inches long. I asked her about it and in so many words she made is sound like if the kid was bad, they got a mark on their chest. Hmmmmmmm.

I pondered on this for a while, and the next day it sitll bothered me so I emailed the day care director. She did some investigating and this is what they did......

Each child got a piece of tape. For the times that the kids "listened well", they got a sticker. Any kid who got 3 stickers received a treat at the end of the day, which I think was a sucker (yeah, GREAT treat - this after she just got sealants and we no longer let her eat suckers!). The kids who DIDN'T listen got a mark on the tape. If THEY got 3 marks, the tape was taken away.

The director didn't agree that this was a totally appropriate way of doing this. The first "half" of it is fine, with the stickers and some sort of award.

Yesterday I saw one of DDs teachers and she said "I heard you had some questions about the activity we did the other day" And she explained it to me. I basically told her that I thought the idea of stickers was a great idea but didn't quite feel right about the kids not listening receiving BLACK MARKS on a piece of tape on their chest. Kinda feels like the Scarlet Letter, doesn't it? Anyway, she basically said that they would be doing these sorts of activities in the future. I am glad DD came up and hugged me because I was about ready to say something. oh, and she also said that they have a large, loud group and so they have to do things like this to keep things structured.

Am I out of place thinking that this is inappropriate? When DD first told me about this, I thought she really meant the bad kids got marks. It turns out it's related to listening. BUT, doesn't it feel like the children w/ black marks are still going to be thought of as bad? Not listening and "bad" are basically the same thing, right? I just have this vision of the teachers saying "____, you're not listening" then walking over and swiping a black mark on them!

In my opinion, there are so many other ways that this same effect can be done w/o a piece of tape across a child's chest. Names on a board, using a traffic signal, cards w/ their name......none of these are physically ON the child.

What do you all think of this? The fact that she said that they would be doing similar activities like this in the future scares me.

Should I go back to the director and talk to her again? For those of you who have kids in pre-k or USED to, what would be your breaking point? There haven't been total GLARING things that they have done wrong, but this is one thing that really bothered me. I LIKE having her there, so close to my job, but at what point do i make a change? Also, she will go to kindergarten next year so she just has ONE year left. Should I upheave her to try another school or leave her be? The school I want her to go to doesn't have a pre-K, so she would end up changing 2x.

Ugh. Sorry guys, this has been really long.

 

[shaylahc1]

I wouldn't like it either. I don't have a problem with rewarding good behavior, but punishing bad behavior AT THIS AGE just doesn't seem to make sense. ALL 3 and 4 y.o.s at one time or another don't listen or misbehave. They are still young. I wouldn't like my kids wearing a "black mark" (think Scarlett Letter here ) to announce to the world s/he was "bad". I don't think that would be very good for their self-esteem

If I was in your position, I'd be finding my child a new school.

 

[cakesnkids]

No, I don't like it at all. I don't think it's appropriate behavior for a child of her age. Also, if you deem the treats they want to give her to be inappropriate and provide a different treat, then they should have to follow through with that also.
I would speak to the director, and if that did not resolve the issue I would indeed be moving her.

 

[frndofpooh]

I agree that the sticker reward for good behavior is good: I also think it takes things too far to have a black mark on them for bad behavior. I see the teacher's point, wanting to have a reminder for the child that they need to work harder on listening but I would feel more comfortable with the reminder being on the blackboard instead of the child. Also, your point about the kids not being able to differentiate between being "bad" and not listening is valid so it would help if the teacher used a picture with her list on the board to help remind the kids what they are up there for.

I'd wait and see about moving her. Talk to the teachers'/administrators again in a private conference when they are not busy with pick up/drop off. Express your concerns and see how receptive they are and move on from there. Good luck!

 

[minniebeth]

I am a teacher by trade, have taught preschool, and have a degree in psych. specializing in child development. It is all about different philosophies of how preschools/schools reward and discipline and having to stay within state guidelines. My personal opinion is that it is totally inappropriate! My opinion is that children need to be intrinsically motivated (I want that sticker or sucker) rather than shamed into it because it is there for all the other kids to see or judge how I am behaving. Some kids might not care or even have a clue that the tape is there but little kids are very smart and I think many would pick up on the fact that they are being "labeled" (literally!) There is enough competition in this world without forming it at this young, tender age. If the teachers are good and doing their job, they would find more subtle ways of motivating and directing/redirecting those who may need it.

If it doesn't feel right in your gut, in your heart, then it's time for a change.
It is so hard to give up convenience, but there are so many great programs out there! It's just one year, but one year in a child's life can make a huge difference!
Good luck to you, I hope you find some peace in this whatever you decide!

 

[Danemom]

I am a preschool teacher at a NAEYC accredited preschool. (National Association for the Education of Young Children) This is basically the gold standard of child care.
Part (a BIG part) of the criteria of accreditation is that you only use positive methods to teach. This is definitely a widely accepted standard, in any quality child care setting, accredited or not. I would be concerned based on this, but another red flag is the fact that the director was so unresponsive to your concerns. I question what her background is and how she is qualified to be the director of a facility. She sounds like she is not educated in current child care ideals, or is the type of person that "knows how to do it better" than leaders in the field suggest.
You are right -what children need as infants is very different, and not all centers adapt to children's changing needs - I would find a more suitable environment. If you are interested in seeing what accredited programs are near you, naeyc.org has a reference area for families. Good luck!

 

[melomouse]

Sarah -

I agree that you are right to be upset, and sounds like you took appropriate steps to follow up and check it out.

To lots of us out here, having a Pre-K on site at the job sounds like a dream, and I also know what a major pain it is to start looking around and changing, time, $, energy, etc...but I think you have to do it.

IMHO, This is a really borderline sadistic solution to gaining control and structure for kids so young. Teacher is physically LABELLING little kids. There are about 100 other ways to accomplish what she wants to do and this is all she can come up with?????

I have done the preschool thing and have been a teacher and child therapist as well, and this story is really upsetting. I am not usually moved to post, but here I am. Good luck to you and DD - I wish all moms out there were more like you!(Are there any other parents in the class who "get" this???)

 

[ADisneyQueen]

Ive been a preschool teacher too and I think it is a terrible put marks on them. Imagine how embarrasing it is to be the child with 2 marks on for all to see, including other parents! Now everyone will know exactly how your child behaved today. Parents and children will start to label the children with marks as the bad ones.
I'd take her out of there if things didn't change. Last year I kept my DD in a preschool that was close to my home, even though I didn't like it that much by mid year. I really regret it and had to spend the summer changing her behavior. I wasn't that good for her self esteem. By the time I wanted to change her, it was April and the school year was almost over.

 

[Alex2kMommy]

The OP said the director did NOT agree that this was appropriate. I would go back to the director and ask:
1. (Because she did not agree with the activity) What did the director say to the teacher about the activity? Did she express disapproval? Or was she noncommital?
2. Knowing now that the teacher intends to continue this activity, what does the director intend to do about it?
3. Inform her again that you are not comfortable with it and why. I think Danemom said it well, using only positive teaching methods is widely accepted and is required by any facility that is NAEYC-accredited. This kind of negative method would not be allowed in most places.

Even if your DD never gets a bad mark, or if she is excluded from the activity, she will be involved by witnessing it. I agree with you, I don't like it either.

If you don't get a satisfactory response from the director, you need to weigh the potential harm from this activity against the potential upset to moving DD to another daycare, then moving in a year to kindergarten. I would bet there are other, wonderful daycare providers nearby that would be almost as convenient.

Good luck to you!

 

[Not so Dumbo]

This would also bother me. I don't think it does much for a childs self esteem. If they are marked as being bad, that's what they think they are, and will be. Time outs always seemed to be effect for my children. I would talk to the teachers higher up and tell her your concerns and that you want this to end. I think the parents should have some say as to what is happening in their child's class room

 

[ShannonN]

I am a Pre-K teacher also but more important than that, a Mom! I can tell you that this would be totally unacceptable in my classroom! You are to never never make the children feel bad about themselves. If this is bothering you, and it would me, I would do whatever it takes to make sure my child was safe and was being treated with respect . I agree with the poster who said they questioned the director. If they didn't feel this was such a problem what else don't they have problems with?? If the teacher told you that they would be doing things similar to this in the future I would really reconsider leaving my child here. This is just my opinion, I'm sure you'll do the right thing. I pray all goes well with you.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I think it's inappropriate!

But something even more unsettling to me is how the teacher handled it. She knew how you felt and stated they will be doing more of these things in the future! Good grief! She could've handled it better than that.

I wouldn't be too happy with her right now.

 

[SarahKate]

Thank you ALL so much for all of the responses about this. I definitely feel some affirmation for the feelings I'm having and I really appreciate the responses of all of you who are or who have been pre-K teachers.

I am going to get back with the Director and let her know of the conversation I had with her teacher yesterday when I picked her up and just see where her head is at. She definitely agreed with me that the other side (labeling) was not appropriate, but I don't know how firm she made it known to the teacher(s).

I didn't mention it in the post, but when DD was first explaining this that first nite, she didn't mention the fact that kids got stickers FOR listening. She only mentioned that kids got marks if they WEREN'T listening. So what that tells me is that she associates this "activity" with negative behaviors.

Ugh. I really have been so happy with this day care over the years. Also, it is part of the hospital where I work, so I have co-workers and friends with kids there and DD has really good friends who she has been there with since she was a baby. There are definitely some great pre-K programs out there, so I am going to look into it a little further and see what's up. It's really tearing me up in side - thinking about what to do. Leave her in the same room with all her friends w/ not so great teachers or take her out into a whole new school but w/ hopefully great teachers!

Again, thank you so much for your responses!

 

[emma'smom]

If you are interested in seeing what accredited programs are near you, naeyc.org has a reference area for families. Good luck! [/QUOTE]

I'm a big supporter of NAEYC and the standards for early education that this organization sets. I am actually the president of our local affiliate chapter. That being said, I do want to point out that many preschools faithfully and loyally adhere to the NAEYC standards without actually being accredited by NAEYC. The accreditation process is very time intensive and very expensive. There a many preschools that simply don't have the time or financial means to seek this form of national accreditation, but still recognize the importance of these "gold standards" and work hard to adhere to them. You can find the NAEYC accredited institutions on the NAEYC website. However, it might also be helpful to ask the director's of other institutions (including the one where your child is currently enrolled) how closely they align themselves to NAEYC and how they assure they are following these guidelines, even if they are not formally accredited.

As for what is happening in your child's preschool, I think this borders on corporal punishment. It is clearly designed to physically identify the child, single them out and shame them into compliance (all for a sugary treat, no less). How about the teachers working on modeling expected behavior and reinforcing these behaviors in other children.

Have the teachers considered using a "peace table" or some other method of peer-to-peer problem solving. My 4 year old's classroom has a peace table and they are asked to talk out their problems at this table when they occur.

 

[Lesley]

Just another early childhood professional voice to add to the "this is inappropriate" column. The director of the center needs to put a stop to this.

I would not hesitate to discuss this with other parents as well....if its not just you going to the director your child is less likely to get singled out because you questioned the teacher's methods. Unfortunately there are a lot of awful teachers and caregivers in ECE....with the low pay and high turnover its a big part of the field. Also unfortunately its very common for these kinds of teachers to be more likely to find fault with a child if they have something against the parents. Honestly, the director probably should not have told the teacher you were the one with concerns and she should have made it clear to the teacher that this was to stop immediately.

On the other hand, perhaps the teacher has too large of a group or her assistant(s) are not giving her the help she needs with positive behavior control. If you were to approach the teacher you could potentially find out what she would need to be able to handle her class without the negative approach and help lobby the director to get her that help.

I haven't been working since I got pregnant with my second child....and to some degree I was not planning on returning to early childhood as a career. But every time I hear something like this I feel like I need to go back into the field...

 

[Traveliz]

I'll chime in too - MS in Child Development and have worked in a variety of chilcare/children's programming.

Nope never ever would allow this to be done on my watch! All the above reasons sum it up well - but just not a good idea on so many levels.

Liz

 

[buzzmom3]

Wow, I send my DS to the daycare attached to my hospital too but my director would never let this practice occur! My DS is 4 and had some trouble listening earlier last year. I met with the director and his teacher and we found positive ways to help him. If I had ever found out they were putting black marks on a piece of tape on his chest, I would have lost it!

 

[Gillian]

As a parent who knows nothing about early childhood education, I think it's just...strange! It would bother me, and I'd probably talk to the director again to make sure I really understand what's going on, and then I'd talk to some of the other parents to see how they feel about it, or if they even know.

Also, I would be fine with the stickers but not with candy.

I think it's a good thing that she stays. She's in a place that you can easily visit if you need to, you feel comfortable emailing the director (and she resonds!), and with a new place it might take months before you really know what it's like. I guess I'm saying I'd try to fix the issues here before going to a new place with its own set of problems.

 

[vhoffman]

I certainly wouldn't want that for my child! You really should contact your state board of licensing....whatever they're called in your state. In our state they have very specific guidelines for discipline in state licensed daycare facilities, and such negative reinforcement would not be permitted. Contact them and just ask for general information, say you're looking at daycares and would like to know what to look for, most states have some sort of guide for daycares they would be happy to mail you. I'd try that indirect approach first, I wouldn't actually file a complaint, at least, not at first. sounds like the daycare set up you have is a good one overall and deserving of trying to work out the few kinks you've encountered. Changing facilities is a big move. Good luck!

 

[Lisa_Belle]

I agree this is somewhat inappropriate, especially in today's school where discipline is somewhat lacking to begin with. But I'll also say that I had an elementary teacher who did this (don't remember what grade) and I was the one with a tape so full of pencil marks that it looked like a rubbing. (I was a talker.) It never fazed me, and it certainly didn't do anything to my self-esteem one way or another. So I wouldn't worry about that.

Personally, I also think your DD's class is getting off easy. My DD4 goes to pre-K at a private school, and they get time-outs for not listening. At some point, they get sent to the principal's office if they don't shape up.

And as for other parents knowing ... hate to tell it to you but they know anyway. Every mom knows which kids to NOT invite for playdates and birthday parties.