Something Happened in DD's Pre-K Class

[gris gris]

I think the director should have control over what goes on in her school and if she does not agree with this she should stop it immediately!! I didn't know that pre-K teachers can trump the director.

I hope it stops because it would heartbreak me too if it happened to my DD. You asked about breaking points - my daycare/preschool drives me bonkers a lot but DD has been there since 10 weeks and her safety has never been jeopardized. There have been a few times where I have contemplated moving her, but she is very happy there and has always been safe and those 2 things are most important to me.

 

[vhoffman]

I guess you have to know your "breaking point" and go with your gut. If you really feel you dd is not beig treated appropriately, I would change!

Its been many years since mine were in daycare, but my breaking point was the constant, petty complaints I got about ds. Complaints I couldn't do anything about, like he pulls his shoes off! I tried working with them every way I could, asking what I could do to help, but seems all they wanted to do was vent. The last straw for me was when they said he was taking off his shoes and poking his socks through the fence, making the teacher run around the building to retrieve them. What a minute--this is a daycare for toddlers and they have a chain link type fence? Something a child might poke something through, perhaps injuring his fingers? The problem wasn't me or my child, it was the school set up. Just what did they expect me to do--send him to school without socks? Well, I just took my kids out, gave notice and didn't even finish out the week. Oh, then the director called me wanting to know what the problem was, could we work something out, offered a free week, practically begged for me (or was it my checkbook ) to come back. Sorry, too bad, too late. There's only so much one can be expected to do to work with a school or daycare and I'd tried everything. So, if you feel you've reached that breaking point, you have. It will just go downhill from there. I don't think you need to yank your child out right now, I'd look around for a better situation in all regards, then try to effect a smooth transition. Its not like she's in immediate danger. However, in looking back at my own experiences with daycare, you do sometimes reach a "breaking point" and need to go with it. Good luck!

 

[talie95]

I also wouldn't like this. My dd just started K but when she was in preschool last year they never did anything like that. They would give a warning for inappropriate behavior and if it continued then they would be removed from the group(time-out) for a few minutes but there was never any kind of "marking". That just sounds humiliating to me, not very constructive. My dd's class was also very "active" and loud (there were 15 boys and 5 girls) but they managed to keep things under control.

 

[TinkNH]

I didn't read the whole thread here..but I was a teacher for 15 years, the last 2 I taught 4 yr old preK. I think the idea of placing marks on a child for not listening is horrendous! I can see passing out reward stickers..the tape being entirely un needed...that is common positive reinforcement, but the negative stuf..no! I had a classroom of 12..10 very rambunctious and loud boys and 2 girls. All I had to do to get the whole group to sit and listen was praise the one child who was doing what I had asked..and then praise the children as they came to circle or whatever the activity was. Kids at that age WANT to please the teacher..they do not need punishment..which to me is what the marks on or removal of the tape are.Also every child should have the chance to earn the reward..even if they had a rocky start or it takes them twice as long as another kid, no child should be made to stand out like that.
My DD starts PreK this coming Wednesday, and I would have serious issue if they were using negative, or punitive means of behavior control. To me that shows they are not up to date on current methods, or have little or no control of their classroom. Sorry your DD had to deal with that..what a way for the teachers to build self esteem in little ones

Sorry so long..it got me all riled up!

 

[kerry34]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents here and say that I also find this totally inappropriate. As a mother of five children who all attended preschool, I have never seen anything like that. I think it is demeaning and made to make the child feel ashamed. Positive reinforcement with stickers or other small reward (although I dont believe it should be candy) is fine, but degrading a 4 year old by marking them for all to see is just plain wrong.

 

[PA Princess]

I am a former teacher also, and I agree with all of the others...this is just not appropriate at this age (and I really would probably disagree with this process in place for older students as well).

I have also been involved in the leadership end of schools, and I really question the way the director handled this situation...why the need to go to the teacher and specifically state who was questioning? I personally usually encouraged a parent to first talk to the teacher. There are those incidents when I needed to step in first, but I never referred directly to who was involed unless it absolutely required it...and then I would sit down with all parties. Going to the teacher and saying, "So and so's mom called to ask about this practice in your classroom," was really unprofessional on the part of the director.

I know making a change will be hard, but personally I would make the change. A bad teacher is one thing...you can hope for and work towards improvement with the proper leadership. However, when the director is so off the mark, I would have serious concerns that the teacher would be continuing down the same path...and clearly from her remarks that was her intent.

 

[scraptoons]

I'm not a teacher or certified, but I am a parent

Can I ask you a question, parent to parent?

Would you go the extra mile to get the very best situation for your child?

Even if it meant that it might be a little more inconvenient to work?

I have talked to teachers and directors and principles, etc. about things that have bothered me. Each time I was met with an open door and kindness and consideration. Each time we reached a satisfactory agreement.

Had it not worked out that way, I would have taken my child out of that place as soon as I could.

Go back and try talking to them again. If it doesn't work out, remember that Your daughter deserves the best. You know what is best for her, and not those people. Look at your daughter's sweet face...how could you not go the extra mile to make sure things are right. No matter what it takes. She is relying on you for her needs to be taken care of.

Go Get Em!

 

[JMLBrats]

Only glanced at other responses and must say:
Pull her out of there!

 

[emma'smom]

My breaking point for my dd's old day care:

I was dropping her off and she ran off to play with the other kids while I put her sweater away. I then walked over to the beanbag chair where she and about 2 other children were bouncing around in the literacy corner. One child picked up a pair of adult scissors that must have been lying on the bookshelf and started opening and closing them like duckbill trying to "eat" the other children. I removed them from the child's hand (and politely and calmly as a I could muster) and took them over to the teacher. I said "the children were using these to "eat" each other in the literacy corner". Her response, "Oh, I've been looking for those, thanks!".

That was our last day.......there had been lots of little annoyances- more stains on clothes than reasonable (some are appropriate, of course, they are busy, young children), parent letters spelled wrong, unhealthy food at lunches (most foods ended in "dog" or "stick"- corn dog, hot dog,fish stick, french toast stick), odors in the classrooms from pet cages that needed to be cleaned, small outdoor spaces that were overcrowded with "worn" toys, etc.

None of these minor dis-satisfactions compromised the safety and happiness of my child....so we didn't "break" until the scissors! That was our breaking point!

 

[Vickie46]

No I would not like that.. and I would find another place for her to go... that is terrible.

 

[MissyPrissy]

Okay my first response was "WHAT?!!!" To literally put a LABEL on a child with BLACK MARKS screaming out "I am a BAD child" is so far beyond the realm of appropriate that I don't know what! As a social worker who works primarily with children who have emotional disturbances, I see A LOT of "token economy" systems where a child is rewarded for appropriate behavior. But to flip the system and put a black mark on a child for "not listening" or as the child would see it "BEING BAD", totally negates the positive aspect of the system. It causes anxiety and compliance due to fear not motivation for the reward. This is not good for their self esteem in any way.

I was also alarmed at the teachers cavalier attitude toward your concerns. This system is not appropriate and only showcases how little control and/or experience these teachers have over the class. A good teacher would not need to shame and humiliate the children to keep them structured and motivated.

I'd definitely have a sit down with the director of the day care and then I'd start looking for a new class.

I'm sorry your little one was subjected to poor control methods. Little kids do judge each other and it is DOES have lasting effects.

 

[mamato2princesses]

Sorry! Double Post...

 

[mamato2princesses]

All I had to do was picture myself in your situation. Imagining the feeling a little girl or boy would have with a mark on him/her all day. A time out only lasts a few minutes. A constant reminder through snack, lunch, nap, recess, etc. that they weren't listening and got reprimanded??? Who do they think they are?????? If my DD4 came home with a black mark, we would be gone.

The infant program at DD4's preschool gradually got worse as time went on. When DD1 started, I was a little apprehensive. Finally, an incident happened and I pulled them both out. DD4 was sad (had been there since she was 4 mos old), and the kids missed her so much. There wasn't anything wrong with the pre-k program, so I re-enrolled her. Now, my girls are in 2 different daycare centers, but they are happy, I am happy and they are getting what they need. A bit of an inconvenience for DH and I, but that doesn't matter.

Maybe the teacher will get "let go" Good Luck!!!!!!!!

 

[MINNIE OF TWO MICE]

My children go to a Montessori school and have been since they were three. It is a wonderful way to learn and there is no reward system. They also dont humiliate the entire family if someone doesnt perform in a manner deemed appropriate to them. Our school also has a "peace table" once the children are 6 years old. I am sorry you have to go through this. I would say, if they dont change the policy, change schools. If you should want to try Montessori, there are several books out there. I would start with one titled "Montessori Today". The other accredited school that the person was talking about before sounds good also. I guess what I am saying is give them a chance to do right, if not leave. If you are uncomfortable with the situation more than likely you child is too if not more. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[schlepsnort]

It would appear that there are two major issues:

A) Their use of 'labelling' is totally inappropriate for that age group (any age group actually) and the director and teachers are not on the same page with this.

B) The excuse being used by the teacher that she has a large group and has to do this to maintain order would send up alarm bells that she is understaffed and does not have the correct student/teacher ratio and therefore may be breaking state laws dictating what they should be.

IMHO I would pull my child. If your heart, your head and your gut are all screaming at you that this is wrong then it is wrong for your family.

We started DS at a preschool last year that started out well but as the months went on the class size grew and grew. It was too many kids, the teachers were overwhelmed and the director was allowing children who had not met the potty training or age requirement to join. I was very angry and had voiced my concerns to the director twice. I was basically ignored. Another Mom had the same concerns and received the same response. So even though it was March and only two months left to school I pulled my DS and luckily got him into a much better school to finish the year in. Within two weeks of DS starting at his new school I saw a remarkable change in him! He was less aggressive, much more responsible (wanting to help me with chores), and was definitely learning his numbers and letters. Any work sent home was HIS work, not the teacher doing it for him. And in the end we were much happier for making the change. And this year other parents have dropped the old school and are joining up where my DS is now.

Again, what that daycare is doing is wrong and deep down you know that already. It's time to change!!

 

[LaraK]

I also have two children in a daycare center attached to the hospital where I work. I understand the proximity factor and am guessing that you work the kind of brutal hours I do...I fully understand wanting to maximize family time instead of commute time.

In terms of the day care I must admit that there are things I see on occation I don't like about my day care. I dealt with many of the issues by becoming one of the most annoying parents at the school...in a nice way of course. I pop in unannounced routinely. If I see something going on with my child, or another child, that I don't like, I discuss it with the director, immediately! Luckily, my kids are generally likeable, so the teachers don't take out their annoyance with me on my kids. I don't care if they like me, as long as they keep the ratios where they should be and stimulate my children.

In terms of this punishment method, I don't think it was appropriate. The kids know already who is good and who is naughty. My husband had a teacher tape his mouth shut in Kindergarten for talking too much and it's a family joke that that's why he will not speak anymore (he's the quiet type).

 

[MouseFriend]

I'll chime in on this one. I am also a pre-K teacher (certified) teaching in a NAEYC accredited preschool and a mother. Personally, I would pull my child out. There are plenty of good programs out there.

Even if you do discuss the issue with the director, and the teacher stops doing the black marks, it sounds like she is undertrained in behavior management strategies, and will probably just choose another inappropriate system of trying to maintain order.

IMHO I do not agree with marking children based on their behavior, good or challenging. Not only can it be damaging to self esteem, but it opens them to being labled by other parents and/or staff in the facility. (Little Susie never gets stickers, she must be bad.) As a previous poster already stated, children this age respond very well to praise and positive attention. The best way to get the children to do what you are asking is to point out how much you like what someone is doing.

In regard to the issue of the number of children, it sounds about right to me, we have 3 pre-k classes in our program and each class has 16-18 children with two teachers.

Hope this helps! I'll get off my soap box now.

Good luck with what ever decision you make!

 

[princesstigerlilly]

WOW! As a mother of 3 with 12 years behind me in ECE, I have to agree this is something that bothers me--a lot. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this, it can't be easy.

I think it's degrading and disrespectful to the kids, or any person of any age, to be labeled--"good" or "bad". These are preschoolers for crying out loud...they need direction and encouragement, they don't need to be motivated by fear. Can you imagine your boss making everyone wear a strip of tape? Just because these people happen to be children doesn't make it accecptable.

Also, if this is how the teachers are starting the year, I'd hate to think what their next step is when this plan fails. They sound very jaded and focused on the negative, not like people I'd want my child to spend the day with. They may be burned out with their job, or they simply may not realize how much this can harm a child's self esteem--maybe the director can help them come up with an alternative.

I hope you can work this out and feel good again about where you send your DD

 

[SarahKate]

Hello all,

I've been so torn up by this issue all weekend! I really appreciate everyone's supportive responses.

I definitely do not have a problem w/ moving her even if it's less convenient. The biggest issue for me in moving her is that she has friends she has been with since she was 10 weeks old. So I am trying to decide what would be better - leaving her w/ her friends for this last year before kindergarten or moving her to a new school only to move her again for kindergarten (since the school we want to send her to doesn't have pre-K).

Anyway, here is the update.

I emailed the Director back on Saturday and told her that I had a conversation with her teacher on Friday and that I didn't really feel like the teacher thought there was a problem with the "activity". She responded fairly soon and said that when she had the conversation with them she thought she had made it perfectly clear that the negative reinforcement wasn't acceptable (but that the sticker idea was a great idea) and that she would follow up with them. I responded and thanked her and ALSO asked her to NOT mention that "_____'s mom wanted me to follow up with you". That was my way of telling her that I DIDN'T appreciate the fact that she identified me when she went to talk to them.

I also emailed two of the moms in the room who I know pretty well and jsut gave them a heads up. I hate pulling others into the mix, but I think they need to know!

For now, I am going to stay put and see what happens. I have been looking at other pre-K's and will have some sort of backup plan. I will be much more aware and will ask DD more questions just to see how her experiences are. If anything else happens, we're GONE! I will be sure to put an update out on the boards if something transpires, as it seems like this is something so many of you are passionate about. For those of you who educators of our young children, I appreciate all you do!!! You don't get paid what you deserve, and that is very sad.

 

[princesstigerlilly]

Hello all,

I've been so torn up by this issue all weekend! I really appreciate everyone's supportive responses.

I definitely do not have a problem w/ moving her even if it's less convenient. The biggest issue for me in moving her is that she has friends she has been with since she was 10 weeks old. So I am trying to decide what would be better - leaving her w/ her friends for this last year before kindergarten or moving her to a new school only to move her again for kindergarten (since the school we want to send her to doesn't have pre-K).

Anyway, here is the update.

I emailed the Director back on Saturday and told her that I had a conversation with her teacher on Friday and that I didn't really feel like the teacher thought there was a problem with the "activity". She responded fairly soon and said that when she had the conversation with them she thought she had made it perfectly clear that the negative reinforcement wasn't acceptable (but that the sticker idea was a great idea) and that she would follow up with them. I responded and thanked her and ALSO asked her to NOT mention that "_____'s mom wanted me to follow up with you". That was my way of telling her that I DIDN'T appreciate the fact that she identified me when she went to talk to them.

I also emailed two of the moms in the room who I know pretty well and jsut gave them a heads up. I hate pulling others into the mix, but I think they need to know!

For now, I am going to stay put and see what happens. I have been looking at other pre-K's and will have some sort of backup plan. I will be much more aware and will ask DD more questions just to see how her experiences are. If anything else happens, we're GONE! I will be sure to put an update out on the boards if something transpires, as it seems like this is something so many of you are passionate about. For those of you who educators of our young children, I appreciate all you do!!! You don't get paid what you deserve, and that is very sad.

Best of luck to you SarahKate! I'm sending pixie dust this will end with the best situation for your DD, you and all the kids.

FWIW, if I were another parent in the program and unaware this was happening, I'd appreciate the heads up