Some good news for SeaWorld

[Silock]

And yet people do this with their dogs all the time and I hear far less outcry about it.

Then I'd have to say you are trying to avoid it. Dog confinement abuse awareness is all over the place. Sarah McLachlan commercials, no-kill shelters commercials that raise awareness of how to treat your dogs, local news reports, The Dog Whisperer (Nat Geo's highest rated show at the time).

Totally Agree on both accounts. Still not seeing the abuse. Apparently you have "Abuse Vision" that I don't. Congratulations on your enhanced vision.

I said neither you nor I are qualified to say whether or not they are abused. I never said they were. But people much more qualified than either of us have said that they were. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Your right. How do you tell?

Animal behaviorists have said that they aren't.

but I hear far less outcry for a much bigger problem then I do for a relatively smaller problem.

Fortunately, whether or not we have heard a lot of outcry about something doesn't determine reality. People all over the globe are working very hard on lots of very important problems. Perhaps you're hearing more about this because of where you choose to spend your time on the internet (ie You're more likely to hear about something affecting a theme park on the Dis forums than you are on some other forum).

all the arguments I have heard about why the whales should be released are based more on opinion and less on fact.

There have been multiple fact-based articles with peer-reviewed citations posted earlier in the thread. The only opinion based arguments I hear are from the "keep them at SeaWorld" side (ie I don't *believe* the whales aren't happy -- this is not fact-based).

 

[peg110]

Then I'd have to say you are trying to avoid it. Dog confinement abuse awareness is all over the place. Sarah McLachlan commercials, no-kill shelters commercials that raise awareness of how to treat your dogs, local news reports, The Dog Whisperer (Nat Geo's highest rated show at the time).

You are missing the point. (obviously on multiple levels) I am aware of other advocates for animal protections (dogs, cats, elephants, etc...) Their abuse, which is much more obvious. (Can't get more obvious signs of abuse then killing an elephant for it's tusks, or emaciated dogs/cats caged up, unkempt, and riddled with disease). The Orcas at Seaworld do not show these signs of abuse. They have good medical care, are well fed. So it seems that, were I to choose a "Cause" about "Animal Rights", while Orcas are one of the BIGGER animals, I think they are a significantly smaller cause as compared to other animal concerns. Not that it's not a cause to consider. I just don't think the Orcas at Seaworld are a significant enough concern (about abuse) to be worried about. I think their captivity (and even performances) at Seaworld is far better for education then lets say an abused dog in a kennel. What do I learn from that? How NOT to treat a dog. At Seaworld, I learn how magnificent the Orcas are.

I said neither you nor I are qualified to say whether or not they are abused. I never said they were. But people much more qualified than either of us have said that they were. Who am I to say they're wrong?

Who are you to say they are right? Just because someone said they are abused, does that mean they are? How many "Professionals" have been WRONG in the past? How many times have we gained new insight into a subject to realize what we once thought was right is now wrong (and vice verse). For example. How about the EGG. First it's good for you. (In fact it's Great for you). Then, it may not be good. Then it's BAD for you. Then we are not sure, but we don't think it's bad. Now it's great for you again. So which is right? Good, bad or neither?

I also cannot help to wonder, that if a child or dog or other animals are being abused, one needs only to complain to the appropriate authority and they investigate it. If there is abuse, they react (remove the abuser or the abused from the situation). Why hasn't this been done with Orcas? I cannot believe that there is not some oversight for such a large operation involving animals.

Also since you or I are not experts in this subject, we have only what we hear, read, or experience ourselves. Based on what I have Read and experienced, I believe they are not being abused. Do they live in "Cramped quarters" (Relatively speaking)? YES! but that alone is not abuse.

They appear to be happy.

Totally disagree.

Your right. How do you tell?

Animal behaviorists have said that they aren't.

So again, you rely on someone else to tell you what to think, feel and believe? From MY eyes (and my experience) when I see the Orcas in the Shamu Stadium perform, they don't seem aggressive, they seem very passive. Ok, so they are performing and if they don't perform, they don't get fed or taken care of right? Sounds like how I train my dog. When my dog doesn't do the proper things he gets punished. Punishment is NOT abuse. Same with my KIDS. When they don't do what they are supposed to, they get punished. Just because I punished my dog or kids (because of their behavior) doesn't mean they don't love me and that they are abused.

Fortunately, whether or not we have heard a lot of outcry about something doesn't determine reality. People all over the globe are working very hard on lots of very important problems. Perhaps you're hearing more about this because of where you choose to spend your time on the internet (ie You're more likely to hear about something affecting a theme park on the Dis forums than you are on some other forum).

Please don't presume to know how and where I get my information. While I do spend a fair time on the Internet, (as it happens to be part of my JOB), it is not the only place I spend my time. Do I research Orcas regularly? NO! I also don't research the plight of those with Asperger's http://www.aspergianpride.com/cure-ignorance/ (well accept for this particular discussion). It doesn't mean it's not a worthy cause either. If you (or someone you know and care about) have Aspergers, it's probably an important issue. Does it mean I should make it first priority in my life? NO!

So to be clear, I enjoy seeing the Orcas (and other animals) at Seaworld so I may be biased. I don't sense or perceive abuse, and while I have read and heard some things to the contrary (other than on this forum), I don't give it much credence. Much like I don't believe that the ACA (obama-care) is helping our country. (Whole other argument). Like any subject of concern, I try to take in the information that I have been presented (either provided to me or through my own research or my own experiences), I analyze it and I come to a conclusion. Can you guess what I have concluded? Barring any compelling credible evidence, I will continue to believe that (on this subject) the Orcas minor inconvenience of captivity (as I believe this is currently the only "Abuse" they get) is greatly outweighed by the good that is done by their captivity (in the way of education)

There have been multiple fact-based articles with peer-reviewed citations posted earlier in the thread. The only opinion based arguments I hear are from the "keep them at SeaWorld" side (ie I don't *believe* the whales aren't happy -- this is not fact-based).

Perhaps I missed those "Peer-Reviewed" articles. As you can plainly see, I have been active in this thread and I think I have read most of the comments (including references) but it's possible I missed them. Can you please provide them again? (That being said, Just because it's peer reviewed, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Just a common belief among the field.)

 

[Silock]

The Orcas at Seaworld do not show these signs of abuse.

Not those particular signs. But there are others. Such as the kind that leads them to get frustrated and kill people and other whales.

At Seaworld, I learn how magnificent the Orcas are.

Are you of the belief that this is the only way to do this?

Who are you to say they are right? Just because someone said they are abused, does that mean they are? How many "Professionals" have been WRONG in the past? How many times have we gained new insight into a subject to realize what we once thought was right is now wrong (and vice verse). For example. How about the EGG. First it's good for you. (In fact it's Great for you). Then, it may not be good. Then it's BAD for you. Then we are not sure, but we don't think it's bad. Now it's great for you again. So which is right? Good, bad or neither?

The beauty about being open minded to facts is that as new information comes to light, one can change their recommendation. So, who am I to say they're right? Nobody. But who are you to say they're wrong? They are MUCH more qualified than either of us. Why not listen to the expert until it is proven that they're wrong?

Do they live in "Cramped quarters" (Relatively speaking)? YES! but that alone is not abuse.

What would you call it? Cramped quarters is putting it at an extreme understatement.

So again, you rely on someone else to tell you what to think, feel and believe?

When they're an expert with a much better handle on the situation than me? ABSOLUTELY.

From MY eyes (and my experience) when I see the Orcas in the Shamu Stadium perform, they don't seem aggressive, they seem very passive.

Passivity?

Also, abused animals often seem quite passive until something goes wrong. Dogs, cats, etc. Orcas are clearly no exception.

Please don't presume to know how and where I get my information. While I do spend a fair time on the Internet, (as it happens to be part of my JOB), it is not the only place I spend my time. Do I research Orcas regularly? NO! I also don't research the plight of those with Asperger's http://www.aspergianpride.com/cure-ignorance/ (well accept for this particular discussion). It doesn't mean it's not a worthy cause either. If you (or someone you know and care about) have Aspergers, it's probably an important issue. Does it mean I should make it first priority in my life? NO!

That's not what I'm saying. What I said is that just because YOU haven't heard about it doesn't mean that it isn't happening.

Perhaps I missed those "Peer-Reviewed" articles. As you can plainly see, I have been active in this thread and I think I have read most of the comments (including references) but it's possible I missed them. Can you please provide them again? (That being said, Just because it's peer reviewed, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct. Just a common belief among the field.)

Peer-review is absolutely the best way we currently have to determine whether or not something is valid. Plenty of citations to peer-reviewed articles in one of these, as well as expert reports from former trainers.

https://www.thedodo.com/community/NaomiRose/everything-wrong-with-seaworld-561608176.html

https://theorcaproject.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/keto-tilikum-express-stress-of-orca-captivity/

 

[peg110]

Ultimately it boils down to that we just don't know. One way or the other. There is just as much an argument for and against it. It's much like religion and politics.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through and argue every point and counter point. I am not an expert. I just know what I feel in my heart. As for believing other experts, my mantra has always been, "Believe NONE of what you hear and only HALF of what you see." People lie and are deceptive even if it's with the best intentions.

I watched the video you posted and while tragic, it doesn't mean that Orcas won't fight in the wild. The difference (I'll grant you) is that in the wild they have more space to avoid such confrontations so it is likely to be less of a chance. Not impossible though.

My last comment is about the links you posted. I am no expert in this area (Just an BS in Engineering and an Masters in Business Administration) but I don't think "The Dodo" website and a Manuscript submitted by a college professor and MD (both formerly Seaworld Trainers) qualifies as Peer-reviewed.

 

[Planogirl]

I don't buy that some Orcas behaving aggressively proves some type of abuse. Dogs sometimes inexplicably turn against their owners and there isn't always abuse going on.

It's hard to know what Orcas really think about anything. We can all make assumptions and believe what we wish but until they learn to talk there is no way to know what they really want.

 

[Silock]

My last comment is about the links you posted. I am no expert in this area (Just an BS in Engineering and an Masters in Business Administration) but I don't think "The Dodo" website and a Manuscript submitted by a college professor and MD (both formerly Seaworld Trainers) qualifies as Peer-reviewed.

I *specifically* said that they cited peer-reviewed research because I KNEW you were going to say that. No need to brag about your credentials, though -- you're not the only one with an advanced degree in here.

You're free to believe what you want, of course. But on one side we have experts and research and the other side has "feelings." Good enough for some, not for me.

 

[Silock]

I don't buy that some Orcas behaving aggressively proves some type of abuse. Dogs sometimes inexplicably turn against their owners and there isn't always abuse going on.

A single thing doesn't prove anything, usually. You have to look at the whole picture. Aggression by itself may not prove abuse. Broken teeth may not prove that they are bored/want out. Shorter lifespans may not. Floppy fins may not. When you take these things together, they provide a better picture of what's going on.

until they learn to talk there is no way to know what they really want.

Until they learn to talk to US. They clearly talk to each other, even using different languages depending on where they're from. They won't be evolving voice boxes any time soon.

I guess I just don't understand why, in the presence of such uncertainty, the default isn't to stop doing what WE have made them do. Nature has developed them over millions of years; it's much better at it than we are.

 

[sunshine1]

Knowing that the original orca were taken from the ocean and separated from their families forever, how can anyone think that is okay?

 

[eXo]

Not always. The point about the bears is that human interference changes their natural pattern of behavior. Of COURSE the whales in SeaWorld are going to perform for food. Where else are they going to get it? I think you're confusing an "easy" meal with the "only" meal. It's not like the orcas can choose to hunt or stay in their tanks and perform for food. They don't have a CHOICE.



This is a fact not in evidence. Prove it.

Said by the person who acts as though they know exactly what all orcas are thinking.

My statement was at least based on the fact that in every case where people have offered food to animals, animals went out of their way to take the food. I'm not saying its a good idea to feed wild animals, I'm saying that when people do it, the animals take them up on the offer.

Here is the fact. Animals take the easiest path to food possible.

My assumption is that swimming up to people is an easier meal than hunting. That assumption is pretty sound. Much sounder than your telepathic abaility to know what whales think and what whales want and then attempt to speak for them.

 

[Silock]

every case where people have offered food to animals, animals went out of their way to take the food

Every case? Every case ever? You sure about that?

My assumption is that swimming up to people is an easier meal than hunting.

Again, you're missing the fact that they aren't given a choice of whether or not they can hunt when they're in Seaworld aquariums.

Much sounder than your telepathic abaility to know what whales think and what whales want and then attempt to speak for them.

I have done nothing of the sort, no matter how many times you say it.

 

[eXo]

Find an animal.

Place food down and move back. Observe.

Repeat.

Let me know how many animals blow you off (and no, offering things like tofu is not valid. Since we are talking about Sea World here, be sure to offer the animal something it would normally eat in the wild).

I'm basing my statements on majority response. Yours are based on exceptions. Occam's razor says my logic is more sound than yours.

 

[ahoyle]

Maybe this was addressed somewhere and I missed it, but someone has proof that SeaWorld is using standard power drills on Orcas with no anesthesia? How is that even possible with any animal without an aggressive response? My dentist would have to be ready for right cross from me if he tried that!

It seems almost everyone of these arguments ends the same with PETA types...they aren't happy and their environment isnt as big as the ocean. Well one you don't know, and two, no kidding.

 

[HollyL]

The whole Keiko thing...... He died 18 months after being freed. He probably would have died a lot sooner than 18 months had he remained in the dirty disgusting pool he had been living in. The damage had already been done to him, he was probably already close to dying, but at least he died back where he belonged. I see it as a success story.

There are a few more orca that are candidates for release, and I bet even a month of freedom, and the chance to be reunited with the families they were stolen from would be worth so much more than the rest of their lives in prison.

Lolita is the best example (not a SeaWorld orca). They KNOW where her family is, she deserves nothing more than to have that chance to see them again. Orca family bonds are as strong as humans, they would know it was her.

Now poor Tilikum...as I write this, he is close to dying. Initially, I felt sad, but he will finally be free from that God awful place that has been killing him little by little. His passing will actually be the best thing that ever happened to him since he was stolen from his family.

 

[Disney Von Drake]

I don't buy that some Orcas behaving aggressively proves some type of abuse. Dogs sometimes inexplicably turn against their owners and there isn't always abuse going on.

It's hard to know what Orcas really think about anything. We can all make assumptions and believe what we wish but until they learn to talk there is no way to know what they really want.

I bet the Spice Girls know:

 

[mshanson3121]

Now poor Tilikum...as I write this, he is close to dying. Initially, I felt sad, but he will finally be free from that God awful place that has been killing him little by little. His passing will actually be the best thing that ever happened to him since he was stolen from his family.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of captivity, but... you're also not giving the full picture. He's roughly 35 years old. For perspective, in the wild, the average male orca lives only 30 years. In captivity, most don't live past 20. So... quite frankly, the fact that an orca is dying of old age, who would probably already have died in the wild, and who has well exceeded life expectancy for a captive orca, really isn't that big of a deal, and is pretty much just a normal, end of life thing. But, we all know this will get blown out of proportion, because of Blackfish.

Again, I'm not saying they haven't done things wrong... but the death of this whale is just going to be sensationalized.

 

[Shanti]

And then the whales will have a fantastic new life in the ocean... NOT!

It'll at least stop their artificial insemination program, which causes more and more whales to be born into the misery of life at Sea World.

 

[Shanti]

Hopefully they can keep the seals and the seal show, because to me those animals really looked fine. Also the manatees. It's only the whales, dolphins and polar bear who seem to me to really have a lousy life.

They might not be able to rehabilitate and release those animals but they can phase them out or sell them to good facilities which promise not to try to breed them.

I'm pulling for SeaWorld because it's a great park ... and when teamed up with USF/IOA on the Orlando FlexTicket it's a good bargain and good competition for Disney.

Sea World's seals actually often go blind over time because they don't do well with the chemicals in the water. Playing on cement rather than sand is also hard on their bodies.

 

[Shanti]

I have read somewhere that the Orcas in captivity would die if they were released.

Reading the second article doesn't say it's false. What it says is that they basically don't have enough evidence to confirm nor deny that it's true or not. I've also never heard of either of these sites so I don't know how credible they are. PETA is going to say sea world is wrong all the time and of course sea world is going to say they are right.

There are plenty of other sources who say that besides PETA. Scientific researchers who study orcas in the wild (& who are not activists) have been saying the same thing. Always bringing up PETA, as if they were the only opposition to Sea World's practices, makes the debate one-dimensional. "You're either with Sea World or with PETA..." That's a false dichotomy.

 

[Shanti]

OK , so you expect SeaWorld to purchase space for a semi wild enclosure, set it up , move the large mammals, and then continue to provide all care and feeding? That's a huge expense.

This is never going to happen. The only way that something like this could happen is if a charitable foundation decided to get involved.

That's actually a perfect recognition of the fact that these animals are valued by the Sea World corporation only in terms of the money they make.

 

[Shanti]

It is obvious that the only two things that can happen to the Orcas are:

1. They stay where they are

2. They are sold

No one is going to pay for Ocean enclosures, including PETA who are the people who actually want them to happen. If the people who actually want something are unable or unwilling to pay for it then it is unlikely that people who are not really interested in it happening will fund it. It's just fantasy to think this even has a 1% chance of actually happening.

What else can happen?

If Sea World closed it would be option 2. If Sea World was taken over it would be option 1. If Sea World feels the Orca's are loosing them too much attendance it would be option 2.

I really can't see what else is a viable alternative here.

The first step would be ending the artificial insemination program. Sea World is still actively breeding these orcas, so more and more of them will be around to perpetuate this problem.