Some good news for SeaWorld

[peg110]

So just so we’re all clear there is a 0% chance that Sea World would ever euthanize an orca is they were suddenly forced to put them in a sea pen. That sounds so childish like “if you make me give it up, I’m just going to break it”. Sea World would be laughed at for even making that claim, which of course they never would, the backlash for even threatening that would be 100x worse then the bad PR they already have.
But just for arguments sake you had two options – release them all into the wild or put them down, then of course they’d be better off released into the wild. But luckily we don’t live in a world with those two extreme options. There is a fairly simple, moderately expensive solution, put them in a sea pen, release the ones that might make it in the wild. Everything else is just hyperbole.

Huh????

What are you talking about? I never said there were 2 options. I also never said there were only 2 extremes. I didn't say that PENS were not an option. I don't oppose the sea pens. I think it's a pretty good idea if it allows Seaworld to continue to educate (through entertainment) and still be less cruel than other methods. Not sure what you are saying that I said sounds "so childish". You have lost me on that one.

 

[rteetz]

A sea pen is a real option. It's not some abstract idea that we just don't have the technology for. The only reason it's not done for orcas right now is because Sea World doesn't want to do it. They have every right to have that position, even if a lot of people think it's a terrible position. There are solutions to this issue.

I understand there are solutions but obviously we know SeaWorld isn't going to do it so why keep going on and on.

 

[dice50]

Huh????

What are you talking about? I never said there were 2 options. I also never said there were only 2 extremes. I didn't say that PENS were not an option. I don't oppose the sea pens. I think it's a pretty good idea if it allows Seaworld to continue to educate (through entertainment) and still be less cruel than other methods. Not sure what you are saying that I said sounds "so childish". You have lost me on that one.

In your post, you said "I agree there is Option 3 - euthanize them" maybe I didn't understand that you were being sarcastic. I just quoted your post because it was the third post in a row talking about euthanasia as an option for the orcas. I was simply stating that anyone that was trying to seriously state that this was an option was being childish because that is not an option and was trying to make an outlandish/horrible option so that in comparison keeping them in captivity doesn't sound as bad. Such as "if Sea World is forced to put them in a sea pen, then they might just put them down, see how much better off keeping them in captivity is". Which is course, ridiculous, because that is not the two options we're dealing with.

The current options are the status quo + improved tank or a sea pen.

I believe there are 3 whales that they think possibly could be fully released, and there are some people that think if they were transferred to a sea pen, they could teach even captive born whales to hunt and possibly be released. I would say there are very few people that seriously think they should all be fully released into the wild immediately and there are no serious people that think they would be euthanized.

Sea World selling the Orcas to a foreign marine park is an interesting idea and a more serious proposal than euthanasia. However, I don't believe that would happen, because they would either be banned from doing so legislatively or the backlash they would receive from doing so would be so immense it would make their problems worse.

 

[dice50]

I understand there are solutions but obviously we know SeaWorld isn't going to do it so why keep going on and on.

I mean why do people ever try to do anything good? Do we just accept the status quo or work to fix a wrong. If everyone had the attitude that "well yeah this is wrong but it's never going to get fixed, so why bother" then nothing would ever change.

I agree, if no one ever raised a fuss about it then you're right, Sea World obviously is fine keeping them. That's why people have to keep going on and on about it. I promise you the amount of bad PR is only going to increase. Think about how society thinks about and treats animals, we're constantly more concerned about them, not less. This doesn't bode well for Sea World hoping people give up or stop caring.

 

[rteetz]

I mean why do people ever try to do anything good? Do we just accept the status quo or work to fix a wrong. If everyone had the attitude that "well yeah this is wrong but it's never going to get fixed, so why bother" then nothing would ever change.

I agree, if no one ever raised a fuss about it then you're right, Sea World obviously is fine keeping them. That's why people have to keep going on and on about it. I promise you the amount of bad PR is only going to increase. Think about how society thinks about and treats animals, we're constantly more concerned about them, not less. This doesn't bode well for Sea World hoping people give up or stop caring.

Well blackfish caused them to do something. I'm not exactly sure if the blue world project was an answer to blackfish or if it was planned before but it would make sense if it was an answer. I don't know of any other places that have orcas in captivity so there is the point of SeaWorld educating the public about these animals as well.

 

[peg110]

There are obviously still lots of people out there that don’t see what they are doing as cruel and still take their families to see them which sadly is directly funding their continued time in captivity but the number of people that have a huge problem with it are going to go up and up.

So now we resort to name calling? You are telling me that me and my family are cruel? Please tell me that you are running your computer on solar/wind power in a 100% Green house using only responsibly sourced and renewable materials, made in similar style plants with people making fair wages. That you eat only free range organically fed meats or better yet that you only eat vegetables that are responsibly and organically grown. That you only use natural medicine to treat you and your families illnesses. Not those pharmaceuticals that were tested on animals (or worse yet people)

Even with all that we can find "Fault" with it. So please don't tell me that my family and I are cruel. You know the old saying about glass houses?

If for a moment I believed these animals were being HARMED for the SOLE benefit of PROFIT, I might have a different view. Just because you believe that the animals treatment is cruel because they have cramped quarters (relatively speaking) or their dorsal fin may be flopping over after 30 years, doesn't mean they are treated cruelly. It could be considered cruel to put people in a 10x10 foot cell to live out their life but we do it. Why for the benefit of others.

There are far worse things in this world that deserve more attention then how Seaworld treats their Orcas, again, which I don't think is bad. The benefit of their efforts which I think are good. We can argue this all day long, but I will no longer waste my time on someone who resorts to name calling to make their point.

 

[Barnabe]

I also take exception to being called "childish" for suggesting that SeaWorld might choose to euthanize the Orcas rather than paying for them being moved and maintained in a sea pen. Done with this conversation.

 

[I M Fearless]

Sea World selling the Orcas to a foreign marine park is an interesting idea and a more serious proposal than euthanasia. However, I don't believe that would happen, because they would either be banned from doing so legislatively or the backlash they would receive from doing so would be so immense it would make their problems worse.

Why would they have difficulty selling the whales to another park? Zoo animals are bought, loaned and sold all over the world all the time.

Where do you think Disney got their animals? The sky?

Tilikum was bought from another park called Sealand that went out of business.

If Sea World ends up going out of business this is exactly what would happen to the whales, they would be moved to another tank.

The parks assets (whales) would be sold to finance creditors or the whole park would be sold as a going concern. If the park felt the whales were damaging their bottom line they would no doubt sell them on.

PETA can't really complain about whales that Sea World has no involvement with, it solves the problem for Sea World, but not the Whales.

 

[GrimGrinningTim]

Why would they have difficulty selling the whales to another park? Zoo animals are bought, loaned and sold all over the world all the time.

Where do you think Disney got their animals? The sky?

 

[Goddesstree]

There is a sea pen already available - unless they dismantled it - and I haven't read all the posts as I am in bed with a migraine (and I shouldn't be on my laptop, but the meds are just kicking in and I have about 20 minutes of 'pain free' before I fall asleep). Didn't they make a pen for the whale used in Free Willy?

 

[I M Fearless]

There is a sea pen already available - unless they dismantled it - and I haven't read all the posts as I am in bed with a migraine (and I shouldn't be on my laptop, but the meds are just kicking in and I have about 20 minutes of 'pain free' before I fall asleep). Didn't they make a pen for the whale used in Free Willy?

The whale used in free willy, Keiko was his name I believe.

Following free willy the public demanded he be released.

A case of the public outcry saving the day for Keiko, a huge fund was set up and millions of dollars were spent rehabilitating him.

Look at that success story, he was dead within 18 months.

These animals sadly should never have been taken into captivity, but trying to put them back into the wild is not the answer either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I honestly think the best place for them to stay is where they are. Perhaps stop any sort of performing acts with the animals and just care for them instead.

 

[ahoyle]

I heard there was a question in the shareholder meeting about sea pens, and Manby said the whales would die pretty quick. He equates it to a kid that lives in a bubble suddenly going out in the world, exposed to all the germs and pollution from their controlled environment. I never thought about it like that, but it makes a ton of sense. Maybe not for the youngest whales I guess, but any that have been their for any length of time.

 

[dice50]

So now we resort to name calling? You are telling me that me and my family are cruel? Please tell me that you are running your computer on solar/wind power in a 100% Green house using only responsibly sourced and renewable materials, made in similar style plants with people making fair wages. That you eat only free range organically fed meats or better yet that you only eat vegetables that are responsibly and organically grown. That you only use natural medicine to treat you and your families illnesses. Not those pharmaceuticals that were tested on animals (or worse yet people)

Even with all that we can find "Fault" with it. So please don't tell me that my family and I are cruel. You know the old saying about glass houses?

If for a moment I believed these animals were being HARMED for the SOLE benefit of PROFIT, I might have a different view. Just because you believe that the animals treatment is cruel because they have cramped quarters (relatively speaking) or their dorsal fin may be flopping over after 30 years, doesn't mean they are treated cruelly. It could be considered cruel to put people in a 10x10 foot cell to live out their life but we do it. Why for the benefit of others.

There are far worse things in this world that deserve more attention then how Seaworld treats their Orcas, again, which I don't think is bad. The benefit of their efforts which I think are good. We can argue this all day long, but I will no longer waste my time on someone who resorts to name calling to make their point.

Guilty conscience? I called no one any name – please show me where I did that. I also don’t see any reason not to call a spade a spade. If you go to Sea World and more importantly go to the Orca show then you are directly contributing to Sea World wanting to continue to keep them. I don’t really see what’s controversial about point that out. For people that think keeping Orcas in captivity is cruel, then honestly, yes I feel like you are contributing to that cruelty by going to Sea World and the show. I don’t go to circuses that keep large animals in their show for the same reason.

No, I don’t do all of those things you list. So obviously I have room to grow as well. But just because all of us aren’t perfect, doesn’t give us an excuse to put our heads in the sand and not try to do the right things. I’m not even sure what point you were trying to make – like since other people aren’t perfect, it gives you an excuse to continue to do something wrong?

I mean obviously you don’t agree that keeping them is wrong but I think it takes a big leap of faith to still think it’s not at least moderately cruel and if there is even a chance it’s cruel, why should we risk it but continuing to allow it to happen? There are about a million fun things you can do with your family, why make a stand over something that could/probably is cruel to an animal?

 

[dice50]

I also take exception to being called "childish" for suggesting that SeaWorld might choose to euthanize the Orcas rather than paying for them being moved and maintained in a sea pen. Done with this conversation.

It's too bad you don't live in a world where you're free from hearing criticism and you can't be sheltered from people responding to your ridiculous comments. There is zero chance they'd be euthanized, zero.

 

[dice50]

Why would they have difficulty selling the whales to another park? Zoo animals are bought, loaned and sold all over the world all the time.

Where do you think Disney got their animals? The sky?

Tilikum was bought from another park called Sealand that went out of business.

If Sea World ends up going out of business this is exactly what would happen to the whales, they would be moved to another tank.

The parks assets (whales) would be sold to finance creditors or the whole park would be sold as a going concern. If the park felt the whales were damaging their bottom line they would no doubt sell them on.

PETA can't really complain about whales that Sea World has no involvement with, it solves the problem for Sea World, but not the Whales.

Orcas, as this entire conversation shows, are very different from other animals; especially those often found in zoos. So saying Disney got their animals for AK from other places, so why can’t Sea World sell their Orcas to other places, isn’t a valid comparison. AK actually takes in a lot of animals from zoos that cant’ keep them anymore. What they do improves those animals lives. If Sea World wanted to sell their Orcas, there are few other places they can sell them. For one, most other countries wouldn’t allow it since it’s considered cruel to keep Orcas in captivity. Secondly, there aren’t many other facilities in the world that have tanks large enough to keep them. Third, if Sea World was going to sell their Orcas it means they were feeling the pressure and were responding. That pressure wouldn’t go away because they simply sold their Orcas to an aquarium in Mexico that would treat the Orcas even worse, it would make things even worse for Sea World, and finally, if Sea World was actually about to do that, there could be legislation passed to prevent it from happening.
So while it’s a more valid question/concern then euthanizing them, it would also never happen.

 

[dice50]

The whale used in free willy, Keiko was his name I believe.

Following free willy the public demanded he be released.

A case of the public outcry saving the day for Keiko, a huge fund was set up and millions of dollars were spent rehabilitating him.

Look at that success story, he was dead within 18 months.

These animals sadly should never have been taken into captivity, but trying to put them back into the wild is not the answer either. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I honestly think the best place for them to stay is where they are. Perhaps stop any sort of performing acts with the animals and just care for them instead.

There’s a lot of truth to this. I think reasonable people would say, they shouldn’t be made to perform, their tanks should be massively increased in size, they shouldn’t take any more from the wild, and they shouldn’t breed anymore in captivity. That would all be huge steps in the right direction we’d all support.

I’m not sure I agree with the statement that it wasn’t a success story for Keiko. It is true he died within 18 months of living in the wild. But look at his life before that, compared to the 18 months he was free. He lived in terrible conditions, developed skin lesions, living in a small dirty tank. For 18 months, he roamed free back where he was taken, hunted, interacted with other orcas, and then developed pneumonia and died. Would you rather live your life in a small tank or live two more years free? Obviously none of us can speak for an animal but we can listen to experts who know these animals and what they think is the best for them.

Also, Keiko’s story isn’t a comparison for living in a sea pen. His story gives us insight to releasing them into the wild. For some whales, their future would most likely be living out their days in large semi-wild sea pens.

 

[dice50]

I heard there was a question in the shareholder meeting about sea pens, and Manby said the whales would die pretty quick. He equates it to a kid that lives in a bubble suddenly going out in the world, exposed to all the germs and pollution from their controlled environment. I never thought about it like that, but it makes a ton of sense. Maybe not for the youngest whales I guess, but any that have been their for any length of time.

I'm sure that's a valid concern, Keiko the Free Willy whale died of pneumonia when it was released. I also think Sea World would play up all that could go wrong with putting them in sea pens bc they have a vested interest in keeping them.

 

[Planogirl]

In your post, you said "I agree there is Option 3 - euthanize them" maybe I didn't understand that you were being sarcastic. I just quoted your post because it was the third post in a row talking about euthanasia as an option for the orcas. I was simply stating that anyone that was trying to seriously state that this was an option was being childish because that is not an option and was trying to make an outlandish/horrible option so that in comparison keeping them in captivity doesn't sound as bad. Such as "if Sea World is forced to put them in a sea pen, then they might just put them down, see how much better off keeping them in captivity is". Which is course, ridiculous, because that is not the two options we're dealing with.

The current options are the status quo + improved tank or a sea pen.

I believe there are 3 whales that they think possibly could be fully released, and there are some people that think if they were transferred to a sea pen, they could teach even captive born whales to hunt and possibly be released. I would say there are very few people that seriously think they should all be fully released into the wild immediately and there are no serious people that think they would be euthanized.

Sea World selling the Orcas to a foreign marine park is an interesting idea and a more serious proposal than euthanasia. However, I don't believe that would happen, because they would either be banned from doing so legislatively or the backlash they would receive from doing so would be so immense it would make their problems worse.

Before you start calling people names, those answers were in response to the idea of SeaWorld actually going out of business like some want them to and not having the money to take care of the Orcas. Who do you think will pay to take care of them if that were to happen? I imagine that SeaWorld would try to sell them but what if there are no buyers for some of them? Do you believe that all animals in captivity survive that captivity?

I'll only add that once again the Ignore feature here is amazing.

 

[dice50]

Before you start calling people names, those answers were in response to the idea of SeaWorld actually going out of business like some want them to and not having the money to take care of the Orcas. Who do you think will pay to take care of them if that were to happen? I imagine that SeaWorld would try to sell them but what if there are no buyers for some of them? Do you believe that all animals in captivity survive that captivity?

I'll only add that once again the Ignore feature here is amazing.

Even if Sea World went out of business, would not or could not sell their Orcas, there is a 0% chance they would get euthanized. First creditors would liquidate all their assets and use that money to care for what animals remained, this money would be enough to care for the Orcas forever would also be enough money to pay for their care in a sea pen. Zoos go out of business from time to time, do you often hear about all the animals in those zoos being put down? Of course not.

It really is a great feature. I’ve found it’s the best way to avoid ignorant and uniformed posts by people with a vested interest and no conscience.

 

[Silock]

http://www.iflscience.com/plants-an...tage-captures-shocking-orca-incident-seaworld