So disgusted, just heard Sean Goldman's Brazilian relatives plan to pursue more

[Lisa loves Pooh]

yes... it did bring up many issues.

"If I am rich, can provide your child with a lavish lifestyle, designer clothing, and a Harvard education, should I be allowed to get custody of your child if you are poor or middle class?"

Most of us would say "of course not"... and we'd be right.

I can take your kids to Disney more often....

Just sayin'....






(I kid! )

 

[1957]

And a good opinion it is! I agree. I NEVER felt that Elian should stay here...I always felt that he belonged with his father, as many others did. So what if his life here was "better" (and "better" is truly subjective)? I guarantee you there are parents out there who are "better" parents that DH and me, living in a "better" home, with more money, and more opportunities. There was no reason whatsoever to keep Elian from his father. It's not up to us as a country to go plucking kids from their parents' homes, or keeping them from being with their parents, because we think our way is the "better" way.

Well said! I was in high school in 1962, and "matured" during the "Cold War"....everything was anti-Communist during those years! Castro and Kruschev were very real enemies and threats. That's what we grew up with. I've become much more liberal over the years, but do admit that I fell under the Elian "spell" while it was going on. You have an absolutely valid point! Who is to say what is the better country? Thanks for your post!

 

[S. C.]

In both cases, the mother died and the father was rightfully given back full custody.

I agree!

 

[Mermaid02]

And Sean's Dad has been in front of US cameras for a very long time. His appearances on talk shows and cable channels most certainly garnered some income for him!. Someone paid for the private jet that flew him and Sean from Rio to Orlando! Hey - I'm very glad that David and Sean are finally re-united! It's about time! It's really a two-way street here, though.

Castro used Elian and his family as propaganda toys..... I'm not saying he shouldn't have been returned to his Dad, but Castro absolutely used this family.
And as far as someone saying who's to say this is the better country... when is the last time a dingy full of americans took off for Cuba with a compass and some water??

 

[brittsmum1998]

And Sean's Dad has been in front of US cameras for a very long time. His appearances on talk shows and cable channels most certainly garnered some income for him!. Someone paid for the private jet that flew him and Sean from Rio to Orlando! Hey - I'm very glad that David and Sean are finally re-united! It's about time! It's really a two-way street here, though.

I believe NBC paid for the private jet which allowed them access and exclusive interviews right away. A ratings grabber I'm sure.

 

[bumbershoot]

Does anyone remember the highly-publicized case of Elian Gonzales? His mother "abducted" him from Cuba and was drowned, along with many others, during an attempt to reach the US from Cuba on an overcrowded and unsafe boat. (I'm calling on my memory, here). Elian was rescued and claimed by the extended Cuban-American family of the mother. They showered him with love and provided him with amenities he'd never known. He seemed to be very happy! Then came the legal quest from Elian's Cuban biological father to get him back. This went on for months and months and months. Whatever court ruled that Elian should be given back to his biological father. Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! The scenes of this boy being torn from the arms of this loving family by authorities were repeated by the worldwide media for days. It really broke our hearts! What I'm saying is that these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing! I'm just saying. I'm an American and love my country, but these two cases are very similar, with predictable countries' loyalties being expressed. I'm sure that most Brazilians had sympathy for Sean's Brazilian family, just as most Americans had sympathy for Elian's American family. We've have no formal relations with Cuba since 1962, and it is long overdue! We've had problems with Brazil's visa requirements, and we reciprocate in kind. We're still playing a "nanny nanny boo boo" game with both of these countries. I'm just saying.

Really good post.

There are so many ways to look at these things...who knows what the boy's mom told her family? Who knows what was the reason she fled her husband? Who KNOWS if he is a fit father???

His grandparents obviously love him and feel some way about his father. Some way that made them want keep him. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. Time will tell, I suppose.

Even in the story of Not Without My Daughter, the father was just going with how he was raised and out of love. The fact that his way conflicted entirely with how the mother was raised is what caused the problems. She certainly should have those about these things before marrying him...I actually dated an Iranian man at the end of high school, and while he was lovely and romantic, when we talked about if he could ever go back home and live, he definitely laid it out for me what it would be like, for me, over there. I chose to end our relationship as I didn't want to live like that if he ever got back home.

Culture and love...can make for conflicts.

A parent's love is more important than trips to Disney World. (and I will go on the record saying this on the Dis boards.)

And I actually read that Sean got both, as his family is/was at WDW this week!

The cases that actually bother me are the cases that involve strict middle eastern countries and custody. Mothers have no rights to anything---father's have all the rights. Yet, the United States will honor these countries laws and return the children back to their father knowing that the mother will never see them again. Heartbreaking.

On the other hand, there's a current case being talked about in Japan, where FATHERS have no rights, because Japanese fathers tend to not ask for *any* custody or visitation after a divorce, they just move along. So the courts don't even recognize it at all, which is causing a problem for an American father whose Japanese wife moved to Japan and took their kids.

 

[CapeMayMommy]

I can take your kids to Disney more often....

Just sayin'....






(I kid! )

You do have that geographical advantage

 

[krcit]

It seems like a happy ending, but something about David Goldman really bothers me. I can't put my finger on it, but he seems like a mannequin or a bad actor, like he's starring in this made for TV movie about himself.

I always thought he seemed 'guarded', like he was turned off emotionally in order to protect himself.

 

[CapeMayMommy]

Really good post.

There are so many ways to look at these things...who knows what the boy's mom told her family? Who knows what was the reason she fled her husband? Who KNOWS if he is a fit father???

His grandparents obviously love him and feel some way about his father. Some way that made them want keep him. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. Time will tell, I suppose.

Even in the story of Not Without My Daughter, the father was just going with how he was raised and out of love. The fact that his way conflicted entirely with how the mother was raised is what caused the problems. She certainly should have those about these things before marrying him...I actually dated an Iranian man at the end of high school, and while he was lovely and romantic, when we talked about if he could ever go back home and live, he definitely laid it out for me what it would be like, for me, over there. I chose to end our relationship as I didn't want to live like that if he ever got back home.

Culture and love...can make for conflicts.




On the other hand, there's a current case being talked about in Japan, where FATHERS have no rights, because Japanese fathers tend to not ask for *any* custody or visitation after a divorce, they just move along. So the courts don't even recognize it at all, which is causing a problem for an American father whose Japanese wife moved to Japan and took their kids.

that's heartbreaking also.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Really good post.

There are so many ways to look at these things...who knows what the boy's mom told her family? Who knows what was the reason she fled her husband? Who KNOWS if he is a fit father???

His grandparents obviously love him and feel some way about his father. Some way that made them want keep him. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. Time will tell, I suppose.
.

It really doesn't matter. His wife went about correcting her situation illegally and no credible information has come forward to suggest that he was unfit.

There is a dad in Florida right now--who entered a not guilty plea...good luck with that one. Anyway, he kidnapped his son from a supervised custody visit. Not sure how he did it--but bottom line, he had ZERO permission to do what he did and took his son on a friends boat out into international waters bound for Mexico.

Even if he had some credible reason for doing so, he proceeded in an illegal fashion to do what he did and thus should be held accountable. (Though from what I know from various people who know her personally--there is no credible reason that he took the kid and there is no dispute, the man was found in international waters--heading AWAY from the US with the boy well after his court approved custody arrangement.)


For Brazil--the US really could not force Sean to come home. It really depended upon their court system or some semblance of negotiations. That's why it took so long.

Even for a family from a questionable area--unless it can be proven that the child's life would be endangered by being with that parent--our govt can't just go snatching kids from other parents or prevent their return b/c of our democratic views.

In the case of Not Without my daughter, she had to flee b/c she could not leave Iran without her daughter via regular means. (And there is controversy on her version of events, btw.) But at any point, if she were to have died before having her affairs in the US known (i.e. updated will that expressed her desires for her dd's custody in the event of her death), there is no way to tell what would have happened. Her dd got to stay in the US b/c her mother lived and was able to make that happen. IF by chance she passed and her American next of kin got custody over her Iranian father, that would have been wrong of the US to interfere.

Point is though--without her personal living testimony, the only correct legal option is to return the child to their living parent regardless of where they live.

This is why Elian got to return to communist Cuba. Her mother fleeing with him was not enough to prove anything other than she preferrred to raise her son in a free country. AGain--without her testimony, it doesn't matter what anyone else has to say.

 

[1957]

Really good post.

There are so many ways to look at these things...who knows what the boy's mom told her family? Who knows what was the reason she fled her husband? Who KNOWS if he is a fit father???

His grandparents obviously love him and feel some way about his father. Some way that made them want keep him. Maybe they are wrong, maybe they are right. Time will tell, I suppose.

Even in the story of Not Without My Daughter, the father was just going with how he was raised and out of love. The fact that his way conflicted entirely with how the mother was raised is what caused the problems. She certainly should have those about these things before marrying him...I actually dated an Iranian man at the end of high school, and while he was lovely and romantic, when we talked about if he could ever go back home and live, he definitely laid it out for me what it would be like, for me, over there. I chose to end our relationship as I didn't want to live like that if he ever got back home.

Culture and love...can make for conflicts



On the other hand, there's a current case being talked about in Japan, where FATHERS have no rights, because Japanese fathers tend to not ask for *any* custody or visitation after a divorce, they just move along. So the courts don't even recognize it at all, which is causing a problem for an American father whose Japanese wife moved to Japan and took their kids.

You know, I was going to bring up this case. Apparently, he tried to get his kids back in Japan (by force? Don't know) and was arrested and jailed. Not surprised that we haven't heard more about this case...the economy being what it is. The movie, "Not Without My Daughter" really got to me. We have very good Persian (they prefer not to be called Iranian) friends who have lived in the US for over 25 years. They verified the events in this movie, saying it happens all the time, and know Betty Mahmood. It's all true, and the "Father" did this because he was fired from his job in Michigan. Sure didn't do it out of love! He did it to save face. He worked illegally as a Doctor in Iran. Won't go on, but love and cultures is something to consider.

 

[shortbun]

These people had no right to that child, they should be in jail.

I have some compassion for them. This is their grandson. They may never see him again. Would you ignore your dead daughter's wishes and turn your grandchild over to his father if she had gone to such lengths to 'protect' him?
It would take a lot to convince me that my child had lied about the welfare of her child. Just sayin'

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You know, I was going to bring up this case. Apparently, he tried to get his kids back in Japan (by force? Don't know) and was arrested and jailed. Not surprised that we haven't heard more about this case...the economy being what it is. The movie, "Not Without My Daughter" really got to me. We have very good Persian (they prefer not to be called Iranian) friends who have lived in the US for over 25 years. They verified the events in this movie, saying it happens all the time, and know Betty Mahmood. It's all true, and the "Father" did this because he was fired from his job in Michigan. Sure didn't do it out of love! He did it to save face. He worked illegally as a Doctor in Iran. Won't go on, but love and cultures is something to consider.

I believe the movie, but it is not without controversy.

Imagine the movie a Brazilian film maker would make regarding Sean's case regariding his Brazilian family compared to an American film maker about his dad.

While I'm sure much of the movie was accurate from Betty's perspective, no doubt her husband and his family would have something else to say about Betty's behavior in Iran. I am not convinced that had her story not been credible or true that she would have successfully escaped.

To me--as much as I hate to say it....love is not a factor in custody and not a good litmus for removing the child from a parent's care (legally speaking). If lack of it were the test, far more children in this country would be without their parents and in foster care.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I have some compassion for them. This is their grandson. They may never see him again. Would you ignore your dead daughter's wishes and turn your grandchild over to his father if she had gone to such lengths to 'protect' him?
It would take a lot to convince me that my child had lied about the welfare of her child. Just sayin'

You raise a good point--which is why I don't feel they are guilty of anything. However, I do feel they were wrong for dragging it out for so long.

If I'm not mistaken--he was seeking custody prior to her death, wasn't he? When she died, I would not pursue a custody matter that I was not entitled to. They were (as far as I know)--not making a case that he was unfit. My understanding was.."this was all he knows and what he wants" was their battle cry.

I also feel they are full of crap--but that's a whole other story.

 

[NikitaZee]

I have some compassion for them. This is their grandson. They may never see him again. Would you ignore your dead daughter's wishes and turn your grandchild over to his father if she had gone to such lengths to 'protect' him?
It would take a lot to convince me that my child had lied about the welfare of her child. Just sayin'

I feel this way too. I do believe that young Sean belongs with his father, but this must be terribly difficult for the grandparents in Brazil. And Sean.

I don't believe that Sean's mother had any safety concerns, though. Surely if she did, she would have used them in court to strengthen her custody dispute. I believe that she was unhappy, wanted to return to her native country, and wanted her child with her. I don't blame the grandparents for wanting to keep the boy; they loved him and probably couldn't imagine not seeing him again. In the end, though, all they did was cause him further pain by dragging this on for years.

I remember the Elian Gonzalez case well. I thought he belonged home with his father.

 

[Inigo]

Does anyone remember the highly-publicized case of Elian Gonzales? His mother "abducted" him from Cuba and was drowned, along with many others, during an attempt to reach the US from Cuba on an overcrowded and unsafe boat. (I'm calling on my memory, here). Elian was rescued and claimed by the extended Cuban-American family of the mother. They showered him with love and provided him with amenities he'd never known. He seemed to be very happy! Then came the legal quest from Elian's Cuban biological father to get him back. This went on for months and months and months. Whatever court ruled that Elian should be given back to his biological father. Most Americans - including myself - were outraged that this boy should have to leave a family that loved him and provided so well for him! The scenes of this boy being torn from the arms of this loving family by authorities were repeated by the worldwide media for days. It really broke our hearts! What I'm saying is that these are two very similar cases, but the loyalties depend on the country. We didn't want Elian Gonzales to be re-united with his biological father, but we were all about Sean Goldman being re-united with his biological father! The "separation" scenes in both cases were media events. We cried and expressed sympathy for Elian's American family when this happened, but we immediately blamed Sean's Brazilian family for doing exactly the same thing! I'm just saying. I'm an American and love my country, but these two cases are very similar, with predictable countries' loyalties being expressed. I'm sure that most Brazilians had sympathy for Sean's Brazilian family, just as most Americans had sympathy for Elian's American family. We've have no formal relations with Cuba since 1962, and it is long overdue! We've had problems with Brazil's visa requirements, and we reciprocate in kind. We're still playing a "nanny nanny boo boo" game with both of these countries. I'm just saying.

Well, personally, I think the US relatives were 100% wrong about trying to keep Elian in the US against his father's wishes, and that the US government did the right thing in removing him from those crazy people. He should have been returned to his father a lot earlier than he was returned.

 

[1957]

I believe the movie, but it is not without controversy.

Imagine the movie a Brazilian film maker would make regarding Sean's case regariding his Brazilian family compared to an American film maker about his dad.

While I'm sure much of the movie was accurate from Betty's perspective, no doubt her husband and his family would have something else to say about Betty's behavior in Iran. I am not convinced that had her story not been credible or true that she would have successfully escaped.

To me--as much as I hate to say it....love is not a factor in custody and not a good litmus for removing the child from a parent's care (legally speaking). If lack of it were the test, far more children in this country would be without their parents and in foster care.

These events took place during the Ayatollah Khomeni (sp) reign in 1984. Iran became religious, rather than secular, and religious laws were strictly enforced.) I think that the Father tried to save face in this male-dominated society in front of his family....since he had been fired from his job in the US, and didn't tell them the truth. Any movie based on a true story will always have its dramatic embellishments, but in this case, most of the facts were true. I've heard (cannot verify) that Betty's husband and some male family members were "questioned" by Iranian authorities after Betty and Mahtob's escape...."How could you let this happen?"

Lisa - agree with your last paragraph. It's unfortunate.

 

[Wall-E1]

Here's a nice human interest article about Sean and his dad if anybody is interested...

http://www.people.com/people/articl...Top+Headlines)&utm_content=Google+Feedfetcher

Looks like they had a nice Christmas and he is adjusting well, considering everything he has been through.

 

[1957]

Sean lived in Brazil for five years with a loving family. I'm saying it will take an equal amount of time for him to adjust to living in the US with an equally loving family. It's always the innocent child that suffers in the long run. Parents, whether rich or poor, have the advantage, while the child does not. Lisa made a good point about this.

 

[Wall-E1]

Sean lived in Brazil for five years with a loving family. I'm saying it will take an equal amount of time for him to adjust to living in the US with an equally loving family. It's always the innocent child that suffers in the long run. Parents, whether rich or poor, have the advantage, while the child does not. Lisa made a good point about this.

I don't necessarily think it will take him five years to adjust. It might be a few months or a year, but with therapy, he will bounce back fairly quickly.