Skipping Senior Year of HS--Pros and Cons

[JLTraveling]

We're probably not going to agree.

Obviously I don't know what you were like as a child, but you say you've "been a grown adult for a long time now", so I wonder if you're aware of how different high school is now /how many more options we have now. At the high school where I teach /in the county where I teach, we offer:

- A specialized academy at every high school with unique opportunities for students. My high school offers pre-engineering. Another is all about law enforcement and fire fighting. Another has a full-fledged commercial kitchen and students can come away with a Food Safety certification.
- Through internet classes, students can enroll in a wide variety of advanced courses that aren't taught on our own campus.
- When I was in high school, I think we had three AP classes available to us. Today my high school offers 27; well, not all on my campus, but all in our county.
- We offer dual enrollment at our community college. A few students pursue dual enrollment at a nearby university, though that is less common.

In short, we offer an awful lot of advanced options that didn't exist back when I was in high school. A kid who's look for advanced opportunities can probably find it in high school.

Respectfully, you don't get it. A specialized academy would have done me NO good. I didn't want to study pre-engineering or be a firefighter or get a Food Safety certification. I already KNEW 90% of what's required for a bachelor's in engineering by the time I was 5. Because I went to class with my dad while he was pursuing his bachelor's in engineering and I soaked up his textbooks like a sponge. Ditto for clinical psychology, since I did the same thing with my mom.

Advanced classes--I was IN advanced classes. I graduated at 14 from one of the most advanced college prep schools in the United States. A girl two years ahead of me came back from Harvard, where she was in premed, for a visit. She told the 9th grade biology teacher that she hadn't found a single class at Harvard that was as challenging as his class.

Dual enrollment--I ended up in community college rather than going off to college at 14. I CLEP'ed every single required course except for one history class (missed it by one point), took a year of theater classes, and graduated. What would I have gotten out of dual enrollment, exactly?

Again, I'm not saying the OP's son is in my position. But I AM saying that unless you have lived experience with this, don't just rigidly hold onto what your textbooks taught you about gifted kids.

I am not sure of his particulars but believe he is referring to children that score say 700 's + on the SAT in seventh grade or above 50 percentile on the GRE in seventh. For these children the public school system is toxic and the school clock the mortal enemy that sucks away the soul tick by tock (if not always then at least very very frequently).

I'm a she, but yes. Which is why I stressed that the OP's son probably isn't in the same position as I was. I have a documented IQ of 185. I was reading at a college level by the age of three. I taught myself algebra with a video game when I was six. I learned geometry in a day when I was seven. I didn't take the SAT until I was in high school (age 13), but I got a 28 on the ACT when I was visiting my cousin at college when I was six. And you have no idea how much I appreciate your clock references! I'm actually working on a memoir of my school days, and it's titled Tick-Tick-Tick in reference to the loud school clock that was driving me nuts on the day of the staffing that determined whether I would be allowed to take high school classes (at seven).

 

[QueenIsabella]

Oh, I 100% agree that it's a conversation worth having. But the poster I was responding to was SO dismissive of the idea that there could be anything wrong with forcing a kid to stick to the standard high school schedule, I felt like that general brick wall needed to be addressed. For some kids, perhaps many or even most kids, an extra year of high school may not be a big deal. But IMO, rigidly stating that there's zero risk to it, and a huge risk to acceleration, is just as ridiculous and damaging as it would be for me to try to claim that high school is a giant waste of time and all kids should just skip it

Completely OT, but I remember one Thanksgiving at my MIL's--she'd invited a friend whose significant other was an educator who was a real know-it-all. I don't know how we got on the topic, but he began to expound that no child should be accelerated, ever. What he didn't realize was that two people at the table--DH's cousin and myself--had been accelerated. We both hold engineering degrees. Cousin was valedictorian of her HS class (her older brother was salutatorian) and she graduated from MIT. As my husband put it: "It was so fun to watch--you hooked him, and she skinned him and fried him!"

Maybe it's just my Montessori exposure (my mom was a Montessori teacher), but I'm a big fan of "follow the child".

 

[JLTraveling]

Completely OT, but I remember one Thanksgiving at my MIL's--she'd invited a friend whose significant other was an educator who was a real know-it-all. I don't know how we got on the topic, but he began to expound that no child should be accelerated, ever. What he didn't realize was that two people at the table--DH's cousin and myself--had been accelerated. We both hold engineering degrees. Cousin was valedictorian of her HS class (her older brother was salutatorian) and she graduated from MIT. As my husband put it: "It was so fun to watch--you hooked him, and she skinned him and fried him!"

Maybe it's just my Montessori exposure (my mom was a Montessori teacher), but I'm a big fan of "follow the child".

That? Is awesome! I was so scared and intimidated by those people as a kid, and it really damaged me psychologically--I was diagnosed with anxiety as a child, and I have a form of PTSD now (not just from those educators, but also from the insane headmaster of one of the private schools we tried, who decided to beat me and lock me in a closet all day for funsies, but I digress). I'm so happy that I'm not the only adult who now doesn't let them off the hook so easily.

I couldn't agree more with your "follow the child" methodology. I think people tend to forget that our current educational system was established to give Industrial Age workers just enough knowledge and discipline to be valuable on a production line, but not enough that there was a risk of them taking over. At the time, the children of the elite were educated in prestigious private schools, often overseas, that didn't follow any of the ridiculous rules of the American public schools. There are certainly more options now, but the fundamental structure has never changed.

 

[QueenIsabella]

That? Is awesome! I was so scared and intimidated by those people as a kid, and it really damaged me psychologically--I was diagnosed with anxiety as a child, and I have a form of PTSD now (not just from those educators, but also from the insane headmaster of one of the private schools we tried, who decided to beat me and lock me in a closet all day for funsies, but I digress). I'm so happy that I'm not the only adult who now doesn't let them off the hook so easily.

I couldn't agree more with your "follow the child" methodology. I think people tend to forget that our current educational system was established to give Industrial Age workers just enough knowledge and discipline to be valuable on a production line, but not enough that there was a risk of them taking over. At the time, the children of the elite were educated in prestigious private schools, often overseas, that didn't follow any of the ridiculous rules of the American public schools. There are certainly more options now, but the fundamental structure has never changed.

I'll bore you with another anecdote, about my daughter. Her elementary school did MAPS testing--this is a computerized, dynamically scored test. You start with, say, a grade-level math question. Get it right, the next one's a little harder. Get it wrong, the next one's easier. This continues until the computer determines your level/score. When my DD was in 3rd grade, she got up to calculus. It may have been a fluke, lucky guesses, or (my theory) intuiting answers when she hadn't learned actual algebra. This was the talk of the teacher's lounge (she'd had the same K teacher that her brother had at the time, who mentioned this). Well, her teacher couldn't handle it--he went out of his way to berate and belittle her, and even lied to me in a conference to make her look "not so special". Stop me if you've heard this one, ha ha!

In this house, we also deal with dual exceptionalities--people who are both gifted and have learning disabilities. My husband, older son, and younger daughter all fit in this category. You can imagine the difficulties they've faced through the years.

 

[amylevan]

I’ll only reiterate that I see a lot of comments about DE, AP credits and CC credits to decrease college costs by entering as a sophomore.

This is unlikely to happen as a ChemE major. In most colleges, you are taking eng classes from freshman year, and need 8 semesters of college following prerequisites in order, no matter what you start with.

 

[pahoben]

I'll bore you with another anecdote, about my daughter. Her elementary school did MAPS testing--this is a computerized, dynamically scored test. You start with, say, a grade-level math question. Get it right, the next one's a little harder. Get it wrong, the next one's easier. This continues until the computer determines your level/score. When my DD was in 3rd grade, she got up to calculus. It may have been a fluke, lucky guesses, or (my theory) intuiting answers when she hadn't learned actual algebra. This was the talk of the teacher's lounge (she'd had the same K teacher that her brother had at the time, who mentioned this). Well, her teacher couldn't handle it--he went out of his way to berate and belittle her, and even lied to me in a conference to make her look "not so special". Stop me if you've heard this one, ha ha!

In this house, we also deal with dual exceptionalities--people who are both gifted and have learning disabilities. My husband, older son, and younger daughter all fit in this category. You can imagine the difficulties they've faced through the years.

It’s funny, I have nine year old fraternal twin girls and one very quick minded and doing introductory algebra. Her sister on the other hand still struggles greatly to put simple fractions in lowest terms. I constantly remind them not to compare themselves to each other but I still worry about it constantly.

I have noticed two types of mental abilities in people that are greatly accelerated. One type have very high functioning memories but not so strong in creative thinking. The other type high functioning memories but also capable creative thinkers. The first type tend to struggle in top PhD programs (for say mathematics) has been my experience and their struggles can be quite traumatizing.

 

[mom2rtk]

I’ll only reiterate that I see a lot of comments about DE, AP credits and CC credits to decrease college costs by entering as a sophomore.

This is unlikely to happen as a ChemE major. In most colleges, you are taking eng classes from freshman year, and need 8 semesters of college following prerequisites in order, no matter what you start with.

Yes! Although I will add that there is a huge advantage in being able to lighten the load a bit along the way with some of those credits.

 

[DisneyOma]

Respectfully, this is dead wrong. This is the exact same argument that teachers and administrators gave me and my parents starting when I was 7 years old. You'd never believe my entire story if I told it, and it really isn't relevant here. But the bottom line is that I have been a grown adult for a long time now, and I am STILL working through the psychological damage I have from well-meaning school officials who did their level best to hold me back. At 7, I was a happy and well-adjusted kid who was several grades above age level, involved in a bunch of activities outside school, and just wanted to learn everything about everything. By the time I finally made it out of high school at 14, I was an anxious, angry, neurotic mess who wanted nothing more than to put it all behind me. I was DONE. And it wasn't because skipping grades was hard on me, it was because I'd spent my ENTIRE childhood fighting for someone to recognize that I needed radical acceleration like I needed air. Had someone forced me to stay with my age group all the way until I was 17/18, I probably wouldn't be here today.

I'm not saying the OP's son is in the same position that I was. But I can't stand when people say that there is no risk to the standard four year high school program, or that there are significant social risks to breaking that mold.

And then what did you do? After you got out of school at 14? And where were your parents during all of this?

That? Is awesome! I was so scared and intimidated by those people as a kid, and it really damaged me psychologically--I was diagnosed with anxiety as a child, and I have a form of PTSD now (not just from those educators, but also from the insane headmaster of one of the private schools we tried, who decided to beat me and lock me in a closet all day for funsies, but I digress). I'm so happy that I'm not the only adult who now doesn't let them off the hook so easily.

I couldn't agree more with your "follow the child" methodology. I think people tend to forget that our current educational system was established to give Industrial Age workers just enough knowledge and discipline to be valuable on a production line, but not enough that there was a risk of them taking over. At the time, the children of the elite were educated in prestigious private schools, often overseas, that didn't follow any of the ridiculous rules of the American public schools. There are certainly more options now, but the fundamental structure has never changed.

Not sure what state you went to school in, but where I work it is not the IA model anymore. Now it's all college prep, which would have been what those private schools were all about.

 

[QueenIsabella]

I’ll only reiterate that I see a lot of comments about DE, AP credits and CC credits to decrease college costs by entering as a sophomore.

This is unlikely to happen as a ChemE major. In most colleges, you are taking eng classes from freshman year, and need 8 semesters of college following prerequisites in order, no matter what you start with.

I agree--for our son, it's not about saving money, or even graduating college early. It would be nice for him to have some breathing room--maybe take a fun elective, do a semester abroad, that kind of thing.

For students with less intense majors, and certainly ones for whom college costs are a big issue--those ideas could make a huge difference.

 

[Skippy918]

I agree--for our son, it's not about saving money, or even graduating college early. It would be nice for him to have some breathing room--maybe take a fun elective, do a semester abroad, that kind of thing.

For students with less intense majors, and certainly ones for whom college costs are a big issue--those ideas could make a huge difference.

I went to engineering school in the 90s. I had to retake chemistry and calculus cause I didn’t do well enough on the AP exams. Retaking the class was helpful because professors teach differently than high school teachers.
I did have a few friends who came in with some college credits. One got credit for chemistry (full year)so she was able to take organic chem freshman year (required for chem eng majors). In our school it was a junior level class. She was the only freshman. Other friends were able to get credit for a humanities course (1 semester), calculus 1 (1 semester) and mechanics physics (also 1 semester). That’s if you took calculus based physics in high school. If you took regular AP physics, you had to retake it in college.
I don’t know anyone who did dual credit. I’m not sure if it was around at the time. I did know someone who dropped out of high school, got his ged and started at our school at 16. Another classmate was a transfer after she got her associates degree at 16 as well.

 

[pahoben]

That? Is awesome! I was so scared and intimidated by those people as a kid, and it really damaged me psychologically--I was diagnosed with anxiety as a child, and I have a form of PTSD now (not just from those educators, but also from the insane headmaster of one of the private schools we tried, who decided to beat me and lock me in a closet all day for funsies, but I digress). I'm so happy that I'm not the only adult who now doesn't let them off the hook so easily.

I couldn't agree more with your "follow the child" methodology. I think people tend to forget that our current educational system was established to give Industrial Age workers just enough knowledge and discipline to be valuable on a production line, but not enough that there was a risk of them taking over. At the time, the children of the elite were educated in prestigious private schools, often overseas, that didn't follow any of the ridiculous rules of the American public schools. There are certainly more options now, but the fundamental structure has never changed.

Benjamin Franklin was self educated and likely the smartest and almost certainly the most egalitarian of the founding fathers. He founded Penn and strongly supported government funded education in the US for all. Because of his background he also believed that public education was an adjunct to self education and that a person had an obligation to educate themselves.

I agree with you that these issues are very individual. As an example Donald Knuth is the most revered name in computer science. He attended high school four years and Sophomore year at Case Western took his first computer class. Actually he had written the manual his freshman year that the prof used in his sophomore class. He was a student in the class but wrote the textbook used for the class. He went to Cal Tech for grad school in mathematics and after a year his adviser told him he was wasting his time there and told him to write up a result he had shown his adviser and he got his PhD. He said he is glad he spent four years in high school because he enjoyed playing in the band.

 

[JLTraveling]

And then what did you do? After you got out of school at 14? And where were your parents during all of this?

Not that it's really any of your business, but as I've stated already on this thread, I went to community college the following year. I got CLEP credit for every core course except one history class that I missed by one point on the exam. I took that class the summer after high school, got a 100% in it, and then took a year of solely theater classes. Graduated with a theater performance AA one year after high school graduation. Then I turned 16 and took a gap year. I moved into an apartment with a few friends and worked full-time at Universal. Then I transferred to USF and earned my BA in psychology in less than two years. Worked in that field for awhile, then went to grad school for an MA in clinical psychology. My mom was working on her doctorate in clinical psych at the same time, and we were going to go into private practice together with a focus on play therapy for children. Unfortunately, both my parents became chronically ill at that time. Mom had to leave school and then her employer of 20 years and go on disability. Dad had to retire on disability from his job as an industrial engineer for the DoD. I took a semester off to deal with all that, and then they changed the licensure requirements in FL. Because I had taken off a semester, I couldn't finish my degree in time to be grandfathered in under the old requirements. I would have had to start over. Both parents were getting sicker and sicker, so I left grad school. Life happened, Mom passed away, Dad's still kicking, and after a few different jobs I've been a writer specializing in content marketing, curriculum development, and travel for several years now. Along the way I also picked up a certificate in Astrophysics through the Australian National University in partnership with MIT. I probably won't do anything with it, but it was fun to earn. Now I'm thinking of going back to school for a doctorate in Gifted Education, because I can see that there is still a real need for gifted child advocates within the system.

Where were my parents through all this? Advocating strongly for me every step of the way. Taking time off from their jobs to meet with school administrators and educators and contact private schools and try desperately to get me the educational experience that I needed. Oh, and also dealing with reporters and escorting me to Chicago when I appeared on Phil Donahue and to the American Academy of Achievement when I received an award alongside, among others, Jimmy Carter and Ray Charles and Ed Asner. The highlight of that weekend was a $1k a plate banquet, and I was fully sponsored by George Jenkins, the founder of Publix. That all happened because a cub reporter for the local paper wanted to do a story on the special education system in town, and understandably most parents didn't want a reporter in the room during their kids' staffings. My parents agreed to let her attend the one where I was staffed into high school at seven, thinking I'd get maybe a passing mention as part of the larger story on the educational system. She asked permission to release the story to the AP, and my parents agreed, again thinking it might be back page filler somewhere. They had no way to know the phone would be ringing off the hook by the time we got home, or that it would become the hottest story in the country, or that there would suddenly be news helicopters landing on the football field at my elementary school. Nor could they have predicted the bags and bags of both fan mail and hate mail. Or the fact that the media would viciously turn on me when the experiment failed--not due to anything I did or didn't do, but because having school bus drivers use their personal cars to shuttle a seven year old student cross town between the high school and the elementary school, and having that kid feel trapped between two worlds, doesn't always work out as well in the real world as it does on paper. So when a new private school that grouped kids by ability rather than age opened in town the following fall we jumped on it. Too bad they didn't have the resources to stay open the full year.

Shall I go on? If you're that curious, most of the newspaper articles from that time are available online. You can also probably find the Phil Donahue Gifted and Talented Kids episode somewhere...I was on with Alfonso Ribeiro and concert violinist Eunice Lee.

 

[pahoben]

Not that it's really any of your business, but as I've stated already on this thread, I went to community college the following year. I got CLEP credit for every core course except one history class that I missed by one point on the exam. I took that class the summer after high school, got a 100% in it, and then took a year of solely theater classes. Graduated with a theater performance AA one year after high school graduation. Then I turned 16 and took a gap year. I moved into an apartment with a few friends and worked full-time at Universal. Then I transferred to USF and earned my BA in psychology in less than two years. Worked in that field for awhile, then went to grad school for an MA in clinical psychology. My mom was working on her doctorate in clinical psych at the same time, and we were going to go into private practice together with a focus on play therapy for children. Unfortunately, both my parents became chronically ill at that time. Mom had to leave school and then her employer of 20 years and go on disability. Dad had to retire on disability from his job as an industrial engineer for the DoD. I took a semester off to deal with all that, and then they changed the licensure requirements in FL. Because I had taken off a semester, I couldn't finish my degree in time to be grandfathered in under the old requirements. I would have had to start over. Both parents were getting sicker and sicker, so I left grad school. Life happened, Mom passed away, Dad's still kicking, and after a few different jobs I've been a writer specializing in content marketing, curriculum development, and travel for several years now. Along the way I also picked up a certificate in Astrophysics through the Australian National University in partnership with MIT. I probably won't do anything with it, but it was fun to earn. Now I'm thinking of going back to school for a doctorate in Gifted Education, because I can see that there is still a real need for gifted child advocates within the system.

Where were my parents through all this? Advocating strongly for me every step of the way. Taking time off from their jobs to meet with school administrators and educators and contact private schools and try desperately to get me the educational experience that I needed. Oh, and also dealing with reporters and escorting me to Chicago when I appeared on Phil Donahue and to the American Academy of Achievement when I received an award alongside, among others, Jimmy Carter and Ray Charles and Ed Asner. The highlight of that weekend was a $1k a plate banquet, and I was fully sponsored by George Jenkins, the founder of Publix. That all happened because a cub reporter for the local paper wanted to do a story on the special education system in town, and understandably most parents didn't want a reporter in the room during their kids' staffings. My parents agreed to let her attend the one where I was staffed into high school at seven, thinking I'd get maybe a passing mention as part of the larger story on the educational system. She asked permission to release the story to the AP, and my parents agreed, again thinking it might be back page filler somewhere. They had no way to know the phone would be ringing off the hook by the time we got home, or that it would become the hottest story in the country, or that there would suddenly be news helicopters landing on the football field at my elementary school. Nor could they have predicted the bags and bags of both fan mail and hate mail. Or the fact that the media would viciously turn on me when the experiment failed--not due to anything I did or didn't do, but because having school bus drivers use their personal cars to shuttle a seven year old student cross town between the high school and the elementary school, and having that kid feel trapped between two worlds, doesn't always work out as well in the real world as it does on paper. So when a new private school that grouped kids by ability rather than age opened in town the following fall we jumped on it. Too bad they didn't have the resources to stay open the full year.

Shall I go on? If you're that curious, most of the newspaper articles from that time are available online. You can also probably find the Phil Donahue Gifted and Talented Kids episode somewhere...I was on with Alfonso Ribeiro and concert violinist Eunice Lee.

We all are individuals. We all have our innate abilities and our unique histories and some of us have unusual abilities and unique histories. I look forward to the day when there is general respect for the unique qualities of others rather than relying on simplistic labels and pigeonholing. In my case I came from a poor rural family (no indoor plumbing poor) and a father that graduated only from the eighth grade and a mother with alcohol sickness and a sister ultimately with addiction sickness. I did have abilities that allowed me to rise above a typical outcome. I hated school intensely from fifth grade on and was a problem student but always had very high standardized test scores that ultimately saved me from the meth/opioid dystopia that my area of origin has become. Maybe because of my background I always view others as unique individuals and with no pre-conceived notions of any type.

It is apparent that you have abilities and a history that provide a unique perspective that is yours and yours alone. I couldn't wish you more happiness nor success and hope you use your perspective to help students that are mentally different from the mean with your ability to understand their special needs and problems.

Thanks for your sincere post JL.

 

[JLTraveling]

We all are individuals. We all have our innate abilities and our unique histories and some of us have unusual abilities and unique histories. I look forward to the day when there is general respect for the unique qualities of others rather than relying on simplistic labels and pigeonholing. In my case I came from a poor rural family (no indoor plumbing poor) and a father that graduated only from the eighth grade and a mother with alcohol sickness and a sister ultimately with addiction sickness. I did have abilities that allowed me to rise above a typical outcome. I hated school intensely from fifth grade on and was a problem student but always had very high standardized test scores that ultimately saved me from the meth/opioid dystopia that my area of origin has become. Maybe because of my background I always view others as unique individuals and with no pre-conceived notions of any type.

It is apparent that you have abilities and a history that provide a unique perspective that is yours and yours alone. I couldn't wish you more happiness nor success and hope you use your perspective to help students that are mentally different from the mean with your ability to understand their special needs and problems.

Thanks for your sincere post JL.

Thank you so much. And thank you for your honesty as well. I'm very happy for you that you were able to rise above the expectations for someone from your background and I hope you find all the happiness in the world. I too long for the day when people are treated are individuals and given the respect and support that they personally need to become the best version of themselves. This thread has certainly been eye-opening to say the least, and I will never stop fighting for those whose needs and abilities don't fit the preconceived box.

 

[JLTraveling]

It’s funny, I have nine year old fraternal twin girls and one very quick minded and doing introductory algebra. Her sister on the other hand still struggles greatly to put simple fractions in lowest terms. I constantly remind them not to compare themselves to each other but I still worry about it constantly.

I have noticed two types of mental abilities in people that are greatly accelerated. One type have very high functioning memories but not so strong in creative thinking. The other type high functioning memories but also capable creative thinkers. The first type tend to struggle in top PhD programs (for say mathematics) has been my experience and their struggles can be quite traumatizing.

I missed this earlier, and I wanted to comment. For the sister that's struggling with fractions--have you tried working with her on the concepts involved in higher-level math, if not necessarily the specific calculations? I ask this because I was very strong willed and asynchronous. I REFUSED to learn my multiplication tables. I have no doubt now that I could have, but rote memorization was not my thing, and I found ways to get around it. I had long since taught myself algebra with a computer game at the time of that fateful experiment when I was placed in high school classes. But the school system decided that I needed a "math mentor" to "catch up" my math skills, so rather than a math class I got an hour a day with this very harsh Delores Umbridge type. The very first thing she ever said to me was, "I don't know who told you that you're gifted, but you're clearly not gifted in math." The day she was absent, her sub taught me geometry in a day. But to this woman, I didn't know the multiplication tables by heart, so I was useless at math. I believed her too, and I steered away from math until I got into curriculum development as an adult. And was assigned to write lesson plans for Euclid's Geometry. I was terrified, but suddenly it all clicked. I wasn't ever "not gifted" in math, I didn't have a taste for rote memorization. After finishing those lesson plans, I got together with my engineer father and learned calculus in a weekend. And went straight on to use it to earn my certificate in Astrophysics.

So that's my long winded way of saying, obviously I don't know your kids. But it would be worth experimenting with the fraction-challenged one on higher level concepts. That would make it easier to identify exactly what she's struggling with and potentially save her decades of thinking she's dumb in math. Just my two cents

 

[pahoben]

I missed this earlier, and I wanted to comment. For the sister that's struggling with fractions--have you tried working with her on the concepts involved in higher-level math, if not necessarily the specific calculations? I ask this because I was very strong willed and asynchronous. I REFUSED to learn my multiplication tables. I have no doubt now that I could have, but rote memorization was not my thing, and I found ways to get around it. I had long since taught myself algebra with a computer game at the time of that fateful experiment when I was placed in high school classes. But the school system decided that I needed a "math mentor" to "catch up" my math skills, so rather than a math class I got an hour a day with this very harsh Delores Umbridge type. The very first thing she ever said to me was, "I don't know who told you that you're gifted, but you're clearly not gifted in math." The day she was absent, her sub taught me geometry in a day. But to this woman, I didn't know the multiplication tables by heart, so I was useless at math. I believed her too, and I steered away from math until I got into curriculum development as an adult. And was assigned to write lesson plans for Euclid's Geometry. I was terrified, but suddenly it all clicked. I wasn't ever "not gifted" in math, I didn't have a taste for rote memorization. After finishing those lesson plans, I got together with my engineer father and learned calculus in a weekend. And went straight on to use it to earn my certificate in Astrophysics.

So that's my long winded way of saying, obviously I don't know your kids. But it would be worth experimenting with the fraction-challenged one on higher level concepts. That would make it easier to identify exactly what she's struggling with and potentially save her decades of thinking she's dumb in math. Just my two cents

Thanks and will try. I give her a problem and she writes down a very bizarre answer. I can't even imagine the mental process she used to arrive at what she writes and so ask her to explain how she came to that answer. No response and blank face stare. I always tell them that people have different learning styles and they each have their own styles so can't compare but the fact is for math their minds work very differently. i have resigned myself to using a very slow pace with her. A couple years ago I realized that they would have to proceed separately on math and worried about the impact on the slower daughter. I didn't think it fair to constrain my other daughter to her sister's pace and so handled it as best I could but always must ensure that no damage is done to her sister. Twin girls can be very competitive and I just emphasize we are all different in wonderful unique ways and even so for twin sisters.

 

[JLTraveling]

Thanks and will try. I give her a problem and she writes down a very bizarre answer. I can't even imagine the mental process she used to arrive at what she writes and so ask her to explain how she came to that answer. No response and blank face stare. I always tell them that people have different learning styles and they each have their own styles so can't compare but the fact is for math their minds work very differently. i have resigned myself to using a very slow pace with her. A couple years ago I realized that they would have to proceed separately on math and worried about the impact on the slower daughter. I didn't think it fair to constrain my other daughter to her sister's pace and so handled it as best I could but always must ensure that no damage is done to her sister. Twin girls can be very competitive and I just emphasize we are all different in wonderful unique ways and even so for twin sisters.

It sounds like you're doing everything right. Hang in there! I can't imagine the challenges of twins.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Minor update:

After careful reflection, DS has decided NOT to skip his senior year. As he investigated, he realized he could either do dual-enrollment OR start full-time college early, not both. This is because the dual-enrollment college credits don't count towards HS graduation credits. He's more interested in dual-enrollment, and has already been accepted. He also would have had to take an online course this summer (do-able, but he doesn't want to). He'll be able to take a lot of college courses his senior year, and this opens up more college choices for him when he does go.

I support him 100%--he's clearly thinking like a mature, rational human being. I have no doubt he'll succeed in his chosen path.

I want to again thank everyone for their insights and opinions. Sometimes it can be hard to know how to do what's right for our children.