Sitting with kids on the plane

[mjkacmom]

as for the whole divorced parent thing.....your not going to like my answer...don't get a divorce, but that is another threat entirely...seriously, I don't believe that folks should be putting unattended kids on a plane...regardless of the situation. Hundreds of things out there that we feel kids don't have the physical or mental ability to accomplish and we shouldn't change rules just because Mom and Dad got a divorce, or Grandparents wanted the children for the summer. The airlines allow it, I don't like the policy and wouldn't choose that for my children..to each their own.

Dd13 has flown twice by herself to my SIL's in Ohio (we're in NJ). I didn't question it for a minute. She's responsible and well-behaved. I was not concerned about there being an accident - she is way more likely to be in a car accident than a plane accident, and she rides in cars almost every day. Someone walks her to the gate, someone picks her up from the gate.

She's also been walking to school since the third grade, goes out to lunch and dinner with her gfs, goes shopping with them, and in a few years, will be off to college.

I live in the NYC area - tons of kids are taking public transportation (buses, subways, trains) to school every day. I started taking a bus into NYC when I was 15 with friends. Kids are cabable of much more than many believe, thank goodness, because they're not kids for long.

 

[scuba]

Please sit an unaccompanied minor next to me any day of the week!!! I have never sat next to one who was rude, imposing, smelly, obnoxious, drunk, demanding the list goes on. Actually most have been very interesting and polite seat mates.

I do wonder for those who feel they have to be with a child in an emergency do you follow your child to school everyday? If there were a fire they would be responsible for following emergency evacuation directions, taking care of themselves, and getting out of an enclosed area. There are actually more adults on a plane than there ever are in a school.

I'm sorry Scuba but 18 to fly alone? how would half the kids get to college following your logic? I can see it now yes you can go to MIT but Mommy has to fly you there! Go ahead and design a new seat belt system for your senior project but Daddy has to fasten yours on the plane. Sorry this is mean but this is what you are talking about when you say 18.

If you pay for seats to be together and it changes due to no fault of your own and your child is very young I will help you all I can BUT if you choose to disregard the fact that you are getting cheap seats because all the prime seats are already gone then don't expect me to do anything, you should have thought of that before you hit the buy button, the seats were cheap for a reason.

Sorry, kids eating and i'm almost ready for work, I have a DD2 and a DD4, so I haven't the parenting experience that some of you do, so I have to work with what I have......with that said, You certainly can show me a 17 year old going to MIT and I can show you a 17 year old that has just woke up from a rave party coma, high on virtually evey controlled substance know to man. Now how can we seperate the 2? I lived in Germany from 1984 to 1987, no drinking age there, I never got drunk, did I drink when I was 17? yes. Certainly we can agree that there are plenty of 17 year olds here in the Good Old USA that would drink not to get drunk but we sill have a minumum drinking age. If you could assure me that said 17 year old conducts themself on a plane appropriately and like an adult, an "appropriate" acting adult then fine, the logic is silly, but we cannot expect every 17 year old to behave that way can we?

I admit, there are mature kids at every age, some that I would feel differently riding alone on a plane, I think the reason why some of you express the feelings you do is because maybe you have a child like that. I have seen most kids don't...in fact I have seen quite alot of adults I wouldn't allow on a plane either. Hundreds of laws out there, take gun control for one, prevents the law abiding citizen from getting a gun they want, just to prevent a bad guy from getting the gun. A no one under the age of 18 policy on an airline would be no different........my experiences with 17 year olds usually are really not that good....i've always been an advocate for raising the driving age but there are many responsible 16 year old drivers...look we all know the problems, but alas, none of us has the answers.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Sorry, kids eating and i'm almost ready for work, I have a DD2 and a DD4, so I haven't the parenting experience that some of you do, so I have to work with what I have......with that said, You certainly can show me a 17 year old going to MIT and I can show you a 17 year old that has just woke up from a rave party coma, high on virtually evey controlled substance know to man. Now how can we seperate the 2? I lived in Germany from 1984 to 1987, no drinking age there, I never got drunk, did I drink when I was 17? yes. Certainly we can agree that there are plenty of 17 year olds here in the Good Old USA that would drink not to get drunk but we sill have a minumum drinking age. If you could assure me that said 17 year old conducts themself on a plane appropriately and like an adult, an "appropriate" acting adult then fine, the logic is silly, but we cannot expect every 17 year old to behave that way can we?

I admit, there are mature kids at every age, some that I would feel differently riding alone on a plane, I think the reason why some of you express the feelings you do is because maybe you have a child like that. I have seen most kids don't...in fact I have seen quite alot of adults I wouldn't allow on a plane either. Hundreds of laws out there, take gun control for one, prevents the law abiding citizen from getting a gun they want just to prevent a bad guy from getting the gun. A no one under the age of 18 policy on an airline would be no different........my experiences with 17 year olds usually are really not that good....i've always been an advocate for raising the driving age but there are many responsible 16 year old drivers...look we all know the problems, but alas, none of us has the answers.

Is your experience with 18 year olds that vastly different than your experience with 17 year olds?

Actually, the drinking age in Germany is 16 for wine and beer and 18 for hard alcohol (parents can serve you at home at younger ages--14 I think). Though--probably because you were posting in a rush while the kids eat, I cannot see the connection with that and anything else in the thread. Sorry

I would also argue that PART of makes a child reponsible and well behaved and capable (which, in turn, leads to a responsible, well behaved and capable adult) is growing up hearing:
"you can handle XXX and here is what you need to know to do so"
rather than:
"you cannot handle XXX and here is why you should be afraid to try"

 

[crashbb]

Is your experience with 18 year olds that vastly different than your experience with 17 year olds?

Actually, the drinking age in Germany is 16 for wine and beer and 18 for hard alcohol (parents can serve you at home at younger ages). Though--probably because you were posting in a rush while the kids eat, I cannot see the connection with that and anything else in the thread. Sorry

I'm also confused by the segue (but I'm easily confused).

The only drunks I've ever seen on a plane have been well over the age of 18.

The first time I flew as an UM I was 5 (actually the day after my fifth birthday - had to wait until then because you had to be 5). I flew quite a few times as an UM. Parents weren't divorced, but they traveled often for work, so often my brother (14 months older) and I would meet up with them and turn it into a family trip.

Never, ever had a problem. Nor did I bug the person sitting next to me. I had everything I needed in my little bag and I was good to go. Since my parents KNEW that I could (and would) talk to a brick wall, they made a point to tell me to leave whoever I was sitting beside alone and only talk to them if talked to me first (not to keep ME safe; but to keep me from bugging my seatmate).

I remember a few of them - the man who told me all about Kosher food (he had gotten a Kosher meal); the woman who ended up sitting beside me both going to and coming home from Montreal (who had me convinced that the entire plane load was the same) and the man who traded his saltine crackers for my shrimp.

Just to show where my bias comes from. Though I respect a parent's right to think otherwise, I just don't see that a child sitting away from their parent is a big horrible thing.

Oh, and on flights with my parents, I sat apart from them a fair number of times (for various reasons). This happened before (and after) my first UM flight.

 

[scuba]

Is your experience with 18 year olds that vastly different than your experience with 17 year olds?

Actually, the drinking age in Germany is 16 for wine and beer and 18 for hard alcohol (parents can serve you at home at younger ages). Though--probably because you were posting in a rush while the kids eat, I cannot see the connection with that and anything else in the thread. Sorry

I would also argue that PART of makes a child reponsible and well behaved and caoable is growing up hearing:
you can handle XXX and here is what you need to know to do so
rather than:
you cannot handle XXX and here is why you should be afraid to try

That is most certainly enforced loosely, drinking age in Germany, much less enforced than here in the States. When I lived there, 16 year old had to be out of night clubs and bars by midnight, never ran into any problems getting hard liquor at age 16.

My point is, I could drink in Germany as a minor, didn't get drunk or in trouble. despite that history of not causing trouble and responsible drinking, I still was unable to drink in the USA because of the drinking age. Again, not that it matters though, airlines still allow for unattended minors flying, so regardless of what I think. Using my Logic the case of the MIT person at age 17 not being able to fly. sure "he" could probably demonstrate to folks that he could handle it, but because of the folks that couldn't, he would be faced with alternate means of travel to MIT. like I said, and maybe the whole Germany thing wasn't relevant, but I proved to everyone that I could drink and be responsible, but here in the states I was paying for folks that couldn't drink and be responsible.

 

[NHdisneylover]

(not to keep ME safe; but to keep me from bugging my seatmate).

I remember a few of them - the man who told me all about Kosher food (he had gotten a Kosher meal); the woman who ended up sitting beside me both going to and coming home from Montreal (who had me convinced that the entire plane load was the same) and the man who traded his saltine crackers for my shrimp.

Just to show where my bias comes from. Though I respect a parent's right to think otherwise, I just don't see that a child sitting away from their parent is a big horrible thing.

Interesting point I did not start flying alone until I was 7 (I went to Texas every summer to spend time with my aunts and grandmother). Like you, I really do not think I was a bother at all (I pretty much burried myself in a book). I know my parents (like yours) were careful to tell me to behave myself. I do wonder if most of the people who are okay with children being alone on flights did it as kids and most of the people who are not did not (and maybe did not even fly at all as children)

At 16 I boarded a train in Valencia, Spain. Took it to Madrid. Checked into an airport hotel for the night (alone). Flew home the next day via with conenctions in New York and Chicago. It never crossed my mind to think of that as a big deal until I started reading the DIS as an adult

All that freedom and responsiblity did not mean I drank underage (I actually didn't--I drank once in Spain where it was legal; didn't really like it) or was otherwise a mennance to society (if maybe that is the alcohol connection somehow)

I am going to have to drop out of the discussion and go to ebd now--but I am looking forward to checking in and seeing what gets posted "overnight"

 

[kaytieeldr]

That's why I posted earlier, "the airlines allow it" and I don't agree with it and it's not for me, so I will just have to deal with it,

It's fine that you don't agree with allowing unaccompanied minors to fly and that it's not for you - but earlier you (or someone, and if it wasn't you I apologize) said it should not be allowed at all, or words to that effect. That's the point of view with which I have an issue. You don't want to do something, no problem - but you don't get to mandate what other parents do or what airlines allow.

Southwest is charging overweight folks for two seats now, that seems over the top to me, hey i'm like everyone else, I roll my eyes when i'm sitting next to a John candy type because for the most part I can pretty much rule out one of my arm rests...

Respectfully, they're not "your" armrests. There are four armrests and six arms in a typical airline row. If the aisle and window passenger decide both armrests at their seats are 'theirs', then that poor person in the middle has to fly several hours hunched in with arms across his chest.

If an airline came out tomorrow and changed the policy about unaccompanied kids on a plane how in the world would that be discrimination? if they have studies or lawyers that indicate that the policy should change. ....but no, if a major airline started recieving an unusually high amount of suits regarding minors flying alone then they most certainly would change the policy without first asking the divirced parents

Awful lot of 'ifs' in this statement - and that's all they are is ifs. There are no plans to change the unaccompanied minors policies - well, except maybe to raise prices , there are no studies (no point to them), there are no lawyers working on the unaccompanied minor issue, there are no suits regarding minors flying alone.

Let's please give the divorced parents thing a rest, huh? That was AN EXAMPLE, and I take it back. Let's instead go with the more apparent "child visiting a grandparent on the other side of the country when no adult family member is able to fly with the child" (aka one poster's ACTUAL EXPERIENCE.

I'm not willing to pay anything, this whole thread was started because folks who paid extra for assigned seats were being asked to move

No, it was not. It was started because a poster did not purchase/select seats when she made her reservation and now, still several weeks before traveling, there are no pairs of seats available on her intended flight http://disboards.com/showpost.php?p=34279255&postcount=1

and ask the single parents of the child to pay extra to have a responsible airline person sit next to the child.......it's sunny in my world

It's unrealistic in your world. Airline employees are not babysitters; airlines allow unaccompanied minors to fly with no problems.

 

[crashbb]

I thought your issue with children flying alone was that they wouldn't be safe; not that they were irresponsible dunkards.

Are you worried about keeping the kids safe or the other passengers?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Huh? How is an airline policy or charge not an airline responsibility?

As I stated in that post you're questioning:

But that's not the point I set out to make. Airlines do sometimes have to change equipment. If an airline assigns and guarantees seat 25C and then changes to a plane with only fifteen rows, or assigns seats BCDE and then ends up using a plane that has only two seats on each side of the plane - those passengers whose seats no longer exist would be entirely out of luck. No seat, no flying.

The airline can't just make seats appear where there weren't any. I don't mean moving people around - I mean going from a plane that holds 200 passengers to one that holds 125.
Or, they cancelled flights due to weather but still have to get all the cancelled passengers AND all the scheduled passengers to the destination. Obviously there are going to be people whose seat assignments are no longer valid.

 

[NHdisneylover]

That is most certainly enforced loosely, drinking age in Germany, much less enforced than here in the States. When I lived there, 16 year old had to be out of night clubs and bars by midnight, never ran into any problems getting hard liquor at age 16.

My point is, I could drink in Germany as a minor, didn't get drunk or in trouble. despite that history of not causing trouble and responsible drinking, I still was unable to drink in the USA because of the drinking age. Again, not that it matters though, airlines still allow for unattended minors flying, so regardless of what I think. Using my Logic the case of the MIT person at age 17 not being able to fly. sure "he" could probably demonstrate to folks that he could handle it, but because of the folks that couldn't, he would be faced with alternate means of travel to MIT. like I said, and maybe the whole Germany thing wasn't relevant, but I proved to everyone that I could drink and be responsible, but here in the states I was paying for folks that couldn't drink and be responsible.

okay--lots of adults cannot drink and be responsible. Should we ban alcohol all together? I think we tried that in the 20s.

Now 18 year olds on flights in Mexico discovering they can drink and it is FREE can be a problem and a half in flight, but I do not recall a single issue with a 17 year old in all my miles logged.

I do think the drinking age in Germany may be enforced more now than it was in the 80s--just as is the case in the USA (where DH tells me he was pretty much always able to buy whatever he wanted--I hope the kids take after me)

 

[DVC Sadie]

I have only skimmed the thread because it is the same drama which flies around every few weeks. But I think that I can guess that the thread contains variants of the following

• nothing is more important than (my) children
• anyone who refuses to move is rude/incosiderate/cannot have children
• nobody else has issues more important than my issues
• other travellers will not help during an emergency because they are not nice people
• anyone who disagrees with my opinion is just not very nice at all
• the parents who post that they are ok with their children sitting away from them must be bad parents
• there are predators on the plane (I see that made it as early as page 5)
• air travel is very unsafe

This goes around and around and around and there will never be agreement. Crashbb posts an excellent list of 'what to do' in this situation. Read it, follow it. Treat your fellow passengers and the airline employees with respect.

I have been on the receiving end of verbal threats, kicks, pushes, hits, screaming, shouting, and all kinds of other bad behaviour over the years from passengers who demand (not requested, but demanded) that I move for them because their situation (whatever that was) was more important to them than mine could be. I have moved for many passengers, but I have also said no many times because I was unable to move.

I think that we all understand that 'your' (meaning the collective) children are the most important thing to 'you'. But please realise that choosing to travel by plane means being part of a larger group, and your wants and needs may not be the same priority to everyone else.

There is no reason to treat others badly, or to physically or verbally assault them. Take responsibility for yourself; prepurchase seats, follow crashbb's list if needed. Worse case scenario if it means that much to you and it cannot happen that you get seats together, ask to deplane and take a later flight.

The reality is that usually DISworld and RealWorld vary greatly; in RealWorld those of us who travel in the parallel universe fly millions of miles a year with little fuss or drama.

But the times when I do encounter the badly behaved travellers certainly has impacted my feelings on these threads.

Thanks for your post and if everyone followed these guidelines then no one would ever have a complaint while flying.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Oprah, Heraldo, Nancy Grace, I don't know, are you one of those that think just because it's not on the internet makes it untrue, actually I think she was either out of the plane on the wing handing the baby up to a boat, or down to a boat....but your taking me out of context, no the plane didn't break up,

No, I said I couldn't find it and asked for a link. Again, the logistics of throwing a child out of a (closed/sealed) airplane window and expecting to be able to aim that child at a specific goal are, well, nearly impossible. Several pages back you said

I don't get you highlighting the throw kid out the window to a life boat thing......look it up,

So I tried and I can't find it. So could you please provide the link? Also, I took nothing out of context. I am 100% aware the plane did not break up, and never claimed it did. The fact that the plane did not break up also means the permanently-sealed windows did not open, and so it would have been impossible for anyone to throw a child out an airplane window - especially with a specific goal.

There are exit widows

No, there are not. There are exit DOORS, yes - but there are not exit windows. Are you aware of the size of a typical airplane window? It's about ten by fourteen, usually oval-shaped. An exit window would be pointless, given that most passengers are larger than this. You might be thinking of the exit windows on buses, the ones that can be pushed outward in an emergency. Now, those are large enough to one or more persons to exit at a time.

but MY POINT IS some children...or my child would like assistance during an emergency landing in water, in which I would lower, throw, pitch, roll, glide her out an exit, window exit, door, broken window..

You're not going to be in a similar situation. That was extremely unique. I won't say once in a lifetime, but close. The VERY FEW pilots who find themselves in emergency situations each year generally do NOT have the conditions that Captain Sullenberger did, i.e. a river into which the plane can be glided.

 

[maxiesmom]

I thought your issue with children flying alone was that they wouldn't be safe; not that they were irresponsible dunkards.

Are you worried about keeping the kids safe or the other passengers?

 

[kaytieeldr]

I'm going to get flamed I just know it, but here it goes. Its great that you think your child could handle an emergency situation, since I have a 4 and a 2 year old, I cannot leave the room for fear that once I get back they would be hanging from an overhead light so i have not had the opportunity to have the same confidence in my children that you have of yours.

Flamed, no. But I'm confused - are you saying you haven't left them in a room alone at all? Or are you saying you have, and you've come back to find them hanging from an overhead light and so that's why you're using this example?

but here it goes, the airlines shouldn't allow children under the age of 18 to fly alone

Thud.

 

[scuba]

My opinion is, OPINION, and keep in mind you guys have the policy behind you, anyone under the age of 18 shouldn't be allowed to fly without a person of legal age, parent whatever. Sure folks are drinking on the plane but my experience is they airlines do a pretty good job at weeding them out. Minors on a plane, I would say it's both a behavior issue and a safety issue........like I said to all of you with contrasting views to mine, if an unattended child sits next to me, my wife and my 2 daughters and there is a problem, my duty would be to MY family, If i'm flying alone, as an old EMT I would be more than happy to protect life and limb of a child but certainly don't assume like you implied in an earlier post. The the next time I sit down in a seat on a plane and joey is sitting there beside me I hope that Mom and Dad isn't assuming that I would grab him on the way out of a burning plane, i'm grabbing my own kids, then my wife. Pick up goldfish or a DVD, sure out of kindness, but like I said before, i'm not going to make that assumption with my children. Hopefully the airlines and alot of you are right with the assumption that the kids can just take care of themselves, or the person sitting next to that child will help with a mask. If you guys are alright with the fact that my family comes first in an emergency, and then I will render aide after THEY are safe then we are tight

katieeldr, we can safely say that regardless of whos armrests are whoms, some of the folks that I have indeed sat beside, there was no question that it wasn't mine...in fact I couldn't even see an armrest.

 

[kaytieeldr]

If you could assure me that said 17 year old conducts themself on a plane appropriately and like an adult, an "appropriate" acting adult then fine, the logic is silly, but we cannot expect every 17 year old to behave that way can we?

But on the day they turn eighteen they suddenly and magically become old/mature/responsible enough to fly without an adult? Sheesh, the day they turn eighteen, they ARE an adult!

Using my Logic the case of the MIT person at age 17 not being able to fly. sure "he" could probably demonstrate to folks that he could handle it, but because of the folks that couldn't

Respectfully, that's not logic. Logic is fact-based, not opinion-based. And those 'folks that couldn't' handle flying alone are far more likely to be 27, 37, 57... than seventeen.

 

[scuba]

Flamed, no. But I'm confused - are you saying you haven't left them in a room alone at all? Or are you saying you have, and you've come back to find them hanging from an overhead light and so that's why you're using this example?

Thud.

I have indeed left them in an age appropriate room alone, as of yet having them in a room where they can get into things...can't do it...my 2 year old is like a guided missle, something she sees , she goes after it.

 

[amberg@eastlink.ca]

You had three seats in a row (admittedly with an aisle in the middle). Given that A and B where on different sides of the aisle it must have been a 1x2 plane. There is no way that you could have had seats any closer together.

Unless you have your letters wrong?

omg! you guys have been busy! lol

no thats the way we were it was a 1 and two. so yes technically we were together altho apart. however my concern was if something were to happen(godforbid) they didnt have an adult besides them, they had their 2 yr old or 4 yr old sibling. i asked a gaggle of ladies at the check in counter to switch it so we'd be two and two and they refused, there is nothing we can do was their wording, but mention it to the stewardess and when we adressed the issue she said no its a full flight we cannot do anything. are they not allowed to ask passengers to switch seats in instances such as these?

thankfully nothing happened, and that the kids travelled very well, not one screech. but it made mamma worry endlessly!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Minors on a plane, I would say it's both a behavior issue and a safety issue.......

If you have been reading this thread, you will note report after report from people who flew as unaccompanied minors, who've allowed their children to do so, or both - in addition to, I think, some parents who've been on the same plane but in separate rows. Every single one of them has made it abundantly clear that proper behavior was discussed and understood - and practiced. As for safety, please go back several pages and read NotUrsula's post about a study in England showing that children handle emergency evacuations better than adults.

katieeldr, we can safely say that regardless of whos armrests are whoms, some of the folks that I have indeed sat beside, there was no question that it wasn't mine...in fact I couldn't even see an armrest.

And that is WHY Southwest enforces its twenty-plus year old policy. Each passenger is entitled one full seat. If the passenger next to you can't put down the armrest, then they need to pay for two seats - but you are not entitled to two armrests just because there is one on each side of your seat. These NEED to be shared with the adjacent passenger.

 

[scuba]

But on the day they turn eighteen they suddenly and magically become old/mature/responsible enough to fly without an adult? Sheesh, the day they turn eighteen, they ARE an adult!
Respectfully, that's not logic. Logic is fact-based, not opinion-based. And those 'folks that couldn't' handle flying alone are far more likely to be 27, 37, 57... than seventeen.

legally they are an adult, we live in a court/lawsuit driven world....what 17 year olds are you around model citizens? most of the 17 year olds i'm around tend to be...........not so much model citizens..........logic or not, we still have a age based system for most things. After age 18 we start blaming the individual not the parents. Society has set up 18 as the mature level, we are not debating the 27 year olds and the 37 year olds and the such and I would challenge you to find data to support that.