Sick of being Vilified!!!

[eliza61]

Sorry for the delayed response, I went to lunch.

This is in Southeastern, PA. Bucks County to be specific. And it is not just those with 20+ years. I'm sure these are Master's holders, but nowadays getting your masters can be done from your own house on the weekends, and, in Pennsylvania, also reimbursed by public funds.

Here are some examples:

$97,236/year (10 years exp.)
$73,239/year (5 years exp.)
$53,626/year (2 years - Elementary)
$57,941/year (1 year) - Basically a starting salary for this area.

In our neighboring County, Montgomery County, PA:

$103,480/year (15 years exp. - Elementary 1-3)
$96,991/year (12 years exp.)
$93,500/year (9 years exp.)
$82,455/year (13 years exp.) --- This teacher is teaching in a District that is currently on Strike, as well.


Again, I love the work that teachers do, but the system is no longer working the way it should, and I do put the blame on the Unions and the way they pit Districts against each other to further their agendas.

Keep that in prespective Todd,

The average house in bucks county compared to the rest of PA in 2008 cost

Mean price in 2008:

Detached houses: $407,450
Here: $407,450
State: $226,884


Townhouses or other attached units: $292,427
Here: $292,427
State: $161,921


In 2-unit structures: $321,764
Here: $321,764
State: $152,955


In 3-to-4-unit structures: $238,236
Here: $238,236
State: $178,834



Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Bucks_County-PA.html#ixzz0lkx5vg00

The cost of living in Bucks county is higher than average in the US

Dec. 2009 cost of living index in Bucks County: 108.4 (more than average, U.S. average is 100
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Bucks_County-PA.html#ixzz0lkxL79U5


So teachers in Bucks county who must live in Bucks county have to have a comparable salary

and so their salary is no way out of line for the area they live.

 

[jazzielady]

However there is the PSEA which is the state affiliate of the NEA, and does the National Unions work inside the Commonwealth.

Correct. Each district is their own local, for example the union in my daughters' school is the NSEA.

 

[stashbin]

Sorry for the delayed response, I went to lunch.

This is in Southeastern, PA. Bucks County to be specific. And it is not just those with 20+ years. I'm sure these are Master's holders, but nowadays getting your masters can be done from your own house on the weekends, and, in Pennsylvania, also reimbursed by public funds.

Here are some examples:

$97,236/year (10 years exp.)
$73,239/year (5 years exp.)
$53,626/year (2 years - Elementary)
$57,941/year (1 year) - Basically a starting salary for this area.

In our neighboring County, Montgomery County, PA:

$103,480/year (15 years exp. - Elementary 1-3)
$96,991/year (12 years exp.)
$93,500/year (9 years exp.)
$82,455/year (13 years exp.) --- This teacher is teaching in a District that is currently on Strike, as well.

But what bothers me most is the way the Union hides salary increases through the "step" program. No matter what a teacher will still get a yearly raise, just for terms of service. Looking in the paper regarding the current District on strike (noted above), the contract breakdown shows some yearly "step" raises of 11%-12%. Seriously, in the face of the current economic climate, who is not going to get upset seeing someone striking over the possibility of an 11% raise they will AUTOMATICALLY get at some point in their career.

Again, I love the work that teachers do, but the system is no longer working the way it should, and I do put the blame on the Unions and the way they pit Districts against each other to further their agendas.

Wow! I won't even top out at this rate of salary and I have a masters! Your property taxes must be a lot higher there to pay teachers that well! Property taxes in my state are low. In my county they keep sales taxing us to death instead of increasing the property taxes. This hurts the lower class even more because our food is taxed. We are all messed up down here.

I do agree that money management is the problem for the government and the private industry. But I still believe that there are some jobs that you can't mess with just for society to run properly. Do I believe that teachers should get pay increases when there are so many who do not have jobs? Not really, but I don't think blaming them for those raises should happen either. Our superintendent makes over 100 thousand a year! All of his office staff are highly paid as well. I say put the money where it is most needed...in the classrooms!

 

[Toad_Passenger]

unless it is written in their contract how does the union prohibit a teacher from doing these things?
I understand unions and the negotiating, but if a teacher really wants to help a student they will and they can.
I think its things like this that sour the public on teacher's unions.

The OP talked about being vilified, well the same can happen from Union leaders and other Union members. I've witnessed, first hand, one teacher "turning in" another teacher who was looking to help a student after class.

That is why, as I said, I think the bad opinion that OP talked about is more related to the actions of the Unions, and not being unappreciative of the Teachers.

 

[DawnCt1]

Actually in Pennsylvania, the retirement fund is funded by the taxpayers, as well. After the teacher retires, I believe they will receive somewhere around 80% of their Final Salary for the rest of their life(?).

That's not the only thing. The current fund for teacher retirement is grossly underfunded now due to the collapse of the global markets/economy. So, the State decided to "call" for all of the payments into the fund that the Districts were legally allowed to defer during the good economy. Because of this, some Districts are now short hundreds of thousands of dollars, and this HAS to be repaid ASAP to support the retired teachers. Guess what that means? Yep, more tax hikes to fund the teachers for something that the State and the Union allowed to happen.

As is ours in Ct. and I believe that the retirement benefits are also 80%. What was the solution in Hartford? The fishing license fees were doubled....until no one bought one, and then they were reduced to the previous amount. Raise estate taxes, cigarette taxes, etc. What Connecticut will do when we run out of smoking, dead millionaires remains to be seen.

 

[Laura24]

First, let me say that I love our teachers, and I'm a certified teacher, but a SAHM. I'm also in NJ. Our budget wasn't passed - lost by 8 votes! The reason it didn't pass is because everyone wanted to take a stand against the teachers who got a 4% pay increase, for the next 3 years, and the union for refusing a pay freeze, or having teachers pay a little for their health benefits (which was dumb on the residents part, since the contract has already been finalized, and now more teachers and programs will be cut).

My DH has been working for the same company for 20 years, and hasn't had a raise in over 4 years (salary freeze). Our town employees agreed on a pay freeze. Many of our friends have had 10% salary reductions. The price the average worker in the private sector pays for benefits has been going up and up.

Years ago, NJ created these wonderful benefits for teachers because of low salaries. The starting salary for teachers in my town is $45,000, with free benefits.

NJ was hit bit-time with the cuts, and I think those of us with kids in the school system would just like to see the teachers union take one for the team, like the rest of us.

Many many folks have lost jobs, have not had pay increases in recent years if they are employed and also have had to "take" pay cuts to keep their jobs. You can't keep robbing Peter to satisfy Paul.

 

[mjkacmom]

Wanted to add that NJ's average teacher salary is almost $57,000, 3rd highest in the nation, and this:

Will propose an Aug. 1 deadline for changes to go into effect
BY TOM HESTER SR.
NEWJERSEYNEWSROOM.COM
THIRD UPDATE

In an effort to reduce the cost of pubic school education, Gov. Chris Christie is preparing to ask the Democratic-controlled Legislature to quickly approve a package of bills before it recesses on June 30, including a proposal that would make New Jersey‘s 178,858 teachers pick up part of the cost of their health benefits.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

What would happen if I posted:

I've been working for the same company for years, and have always gotten a raise. Well, the company is in huge financial trouble, and in order to keep the staff we have, and not fire anyone, they've suggested a salary freeze. I work hard, and deserve a raise, even though that means 38 positions will be eliminated, right? Just because there's no money for my raise, it doesn't matter, because I work hard.

When it happens to teachers, it is criminal. When it happens to the rest of us, it is a fact of life.

 

[DawnCt1]

If money was the answer to the question, 'Why are students not learning", then one has to wonder how the parochial schools have been so successful educating children, on shoe string budgets, larger classes and less technology.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

Keep that in prespective Todd,

The average house in bucks county compared to the rest of PA in 2008 cost

That would be fine to discuss if teachers were required to live where they work, but they don't. There are plenty of teachers who do NOT live in their District, or even within their County for that matter. But that's neither here, nor there, since a lot of us work in a different place than we live.

The problem is how long can a District's tax base support salaries that are already that high, and will only get higher with each subsequent contract?

 

[mjkacmom]

The OP talked about being vilified, well the same can happen from Union leaders and other Union members. I've witnessed, first hand, one teacher "turning in" another teacher who was looking to help a student after class.

That is why, as I said, I think the bad opinion that OP talked about is more related to the actions of the Unions, and not being unappreciative of the Teachers.

This is it, absolutely. Last year, they had to cut out all clubs, which are run at lunchtime, before, and after school by teachers, who are paid. Some wanted to run them anyway, for free, but nope NJEA wouldn't hear of it. So, no clubs.

 

[jrmasm]

In PA, PSERS is funded by the employees along with intelligent investments on their part.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement. I read it to say that there are only 2 sources of funding. Did I read you correctly?

 

[DawnCt1]

Keep that in prespective Todd,

The average house in bucks county compared to the rest of PA in 2008 cost

Mean price in 2008:

Detached houses: $407,450
Here: $407,450
State: $226,884


Townhouses or other attached units: $292,427
Here: $292,427
State: $161,921


In 2-unit structures: $321,764
Here: $321,764
State: $152,955


In 3-to-4-unit structures: $238,236
Here: $238,236
State: $178,834



Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Bucks_County-PA.html#ixzz0lkx5vg00

The cost of living in Bucks county is higher than average in the US

Dec. 2009 cost of living index in Bucks County: 108.4 (more than average, U.S. average is 100
Read more: http://www.city-data.com/county/Bucks_County-PA.html#ixzz0lkxL79U5


So teachers in Bucks county who must live in Bucks county have to have a comparable salary

and so their salary is no way out of line for the area they live.

Workers aren't always paid "in line" for where they live. Some people have a long commute to get to their jobs. I wonder how many private corporations tell their employees, if you live within the city limits, we will pay you 20% more.

 

[jazzielady]

Pennsylvania is like the King of all Strike States. I have seen this tactic in neighboring Districts, as well. The Union will prohibit the teachers from writing recommendations, staying after hours to help students, sponsoring events, etc. It's very sad, since the Teachers usually WANT to do these things, and it only hurts the true customers of Public Education, the children.

We may be the King of all Strike States, but that's because we have built a strong union system in the state over the years.

You do know of course that strikes are limited in PA? A district's teachers may strike for the first time in a school year only for the number of days until the students will be out of school on June 15. They may strike a second during the same school year for for only the number of days until the students will be finished by June 30.

One thing I've learned over the years is not to believe everything that is reported in the media. I have seen teachers in our district (on strike) give 5 minute interviews to the media, only to have the sound-byte used in the newscast make us sound horrible.

One thing districts do to make the teachers sound like money-grubbers is to say that we want - for example - 5% raises over 4 years. That means a 5% total corporate $ raise, not that each teacher gets 5% each year.

Each local recommends different teacher behaviors during a strike year. Typically, our union tells us when we go back to work (I went through 3 strikes in my career) to teach to the contract. Some teachers are militant enough to refuse to write college recs, but they are few and far between.

 

[jazzielady]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your statement. I read it to say that there are only 2 sources of funding. Did I read you correctly?

My apologies, there are also matching funds by the district. To my knowledge, that is the only contribution by taxpayers.

 

[jazzielady]

This is it, absolutely. Last year, they had to cut out all clubs, which are run at lunchtime, before, and after school by teachers, who are paid. Some wanted to run them anyway, for free, but nope NJEA wouldn't hear of it. So, no clubs.

In our district, all sponsorship of clubs is a paid duty, so during a strike year, if you're paid to do it, you do it.

 

[Toad_Passenger]

One thing districts do to make the teachers sound like money-grubbers is to say that we want - for example - 5% raises over 4 years. That means a 5% total corporate $ raise, not that each teacher gets 5% each year.

Respectfully snipped.

But that is a 2-way street. I've never heard the Union, during negotiations bring out the details of the yearly "step" raises that every teacher gets. Yes, the 5% is usually an increase of the total salary during the contract term. However, in addition to that increase, there are still incremental raises given every year.

In the neighboring county, where they are currently having a strike. The contract on the table is only about a 3% total salary increase (I'm rounding). However, when you look at the ACTUAL yearly raises, the teachers below the Max "step" will STILL be receiving 5%-7% raises every year. Some of the steps are an 11%-12% raise! Again, this is a tough sell to people in the face of most people getting 0%-3% raises on average.

I also don't buy the "quality education" argument either. Does that mean that under the last contract the teachers were delivering "sub-quality" education, since they weren't getting paid what they want out of this contract? Or, if they have to settle at less than what they want, will they suddenly be offering inferior education as well? I'm not sure why what was good last year, suddenly isn't good this year. Especially when, Nationally, most market indicators show the cost of living has gone down.

 

[eliza61]

Workers aren't always paid "in line" for where they live. Some people have a long commute to get to their jobs. I wonder how many private corporations tell their employees, if you live within the city limits, we will pay you 20% more.

many counties and townships require police, fire and teachers to live in the area where they work. Philly in 2009 finally relaxed their requirement simply because no one wanted to live within the city due to issues with crime. Education one of the number one reasons people flock to Bucks county and South Jersey. Gloucester township NJ where I live has a little broader residency requirement for teachers. we have a tri county residency requirements so teachers have a few extra miles to reside . I believe our police officers must still be township residence. Heck, I just went on line and the township county clerk is required to be a township resident. LOL

So if you are going to require some of your workers to live in a specific areas it would help if you paid them a salary that let's them do that. That's just me though.

 

[jazzielady]

Respectfully snipped.

But that is a 2-way street. I've never heard the Union, during negotiations bring out the details of the yearly "step" raises that every teacher gets. Yes, the 5% is usually an increase of the total salary during the contract term. However, in addition to that increase, there are still incremental raises given every year.

In the neighboring county, where they are currently having a strike. The contract on the table is only about a 3% total salary increase (I'm rounding). However, when you look at the ACTUAL yearly raises, the teachers below the Max "step" will STILL be receiving 5%-7% raises every year. Some of the steps are an 11%-12% raise! Again, this is a tough sell to people in the face of most people getting 0%-3% raises on average.

I also don't buy the "quality education" argument either. Does that mean that under the last contract the teachers were delivering "sub-quality" education, since they weren't getting paid what they want out of this contract? Or, if they have to settle at less than what they want, will they suddenly be offering inferior education as well? I'm not sure why what was good last year, suddenly isn't good this year. Especially when, Nationally, most market indicators show the cost of living has gone down.

Thank you, it's nice to have a respectful debate on this.

Regarding the "steps", yes, it's true that unless teachers receive unsatifactories in their yearly evaluations, a teacher will automatically receive a pay raise on the next step. In our district though, the steps are minimal ($500-$2000) until the 17th step, which we call the "jump-step", or "hitting max". At that point, you get somewhere around a $30,000 raise! YIKES!! How did that happen? By settling contracts based on percentages rather that across-the-board dollar amounts. Why? Because most of the districts teachers were on the steps, rather than at max, so it cost the district less money. Now many of those teachers have reached max, and the district is hemorraging money. That's not our fault. We wanted to index the scale so that life-time earnings were greater but the jump-step was reduced or even eliminated.

IOW, I would have preferred larger raises along the way, and never reached a "jump-step" or "reached max" because I would have earned more over my career.

 

[rgf207]

You would be told to take one for the team, to suck it up because lots of workers are not getting raises

My wife teaches in Maryland. They budget was cut this year. The teacher/union voted on whether to suspend raises or cut teachers. The teachers/union decided to suspend raises and keep teachers.