Should churches change security in wake of recent events?

[NFLDERS]

Wonder Whisper:. Why post it!?

 

[Hikergirl]

One report stated he purchased the gun "Legally."

He checked the box as "No Criminal Record."

And, stated a different town as his place of residence.

His application form, deemed him as legal to purchase the rifle... sigh.

If he purchased from a dealer then it shouldn't matter what box he checked, they would have ran a background check.
If it was a private purchase or gun show I don't think they run checks, but then there probably wouldn't have been an application.
This is definitely one area where certain states could change things.

 

[piccolopat]

The thing is that people who are intent on causing harm will find a way. If they can't get a gun, they will make a bomb. If they can't make a bomb, they will rent a truck and use that as a weapon. There simply is no way to make things 100% safe and I for one do not want to militarize everything to get the illusion of safety. I also don't want to go through extreme security vetting, metal detectors, etc. every time I walk out my front door. Communities can try to identify potential attackers, but then what? In the past, liberals and the ACLU fought hard to prevent cities from forcing the mentally ill homeless into shelters saying it was their right to live that way. I don't think they would let anyone create a database of people with extreme ideas, history of violence or any kind of mental illness and then use it to prevent them from gaining access to potential weapons. That kind of vetting might have prevented at least some of the tragedies in recent years.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Second, the right to do something also carries with it a responsibility. Right now we’re at 307 shootings this year, nationwide, per an ABC report http://www.abc15.com/news/data/mass...over-270-mass-shootings-have-occurred-in-2017 ) which does not sound too responsible. I’d think that serious gun owners would want a dialogue which encourages and promotes responsible ownership and handling.

Again for full understanding you would need to know the numbers and the definition.

Statitics being used are often including gang violence and home invasions when numbers are simplified to the media also domestic issues can be counted too. Gang violence isn't simply a gun control issue.

~I looked at an incident, via your article that had a link to the statistics being used, that occurred in Chicago in May of 2017 where 10 victims were involved with 2 more people being suspects. Out of those 10 people 2 were killed and the rest were injured and it was an assualt weapon. It was classified as gang violence.
~On new year's day 2017 in Miami 7 victims were involved in a drive-by shooting. None of the victims died. Type of gun was unknown.
~In Santa Monica just 2 days ago there were 5 victims and 2 suspects. Out of the 5 victims 1 was killed. Type of gun was unknown. It was classified as road rage and an altercation between 2 party buses.

In all 3 incidents it was unknown if the guns were stolen.

These were just random things I picked but if you wanted a true understanding of the issues you would need to go through each and every shooting and classify them into categories (I'm not about to go through the link you sent to do that personally would take too much time). Someone deciding to go into a church and shoot people because of some motive is a different issue than gang violence and is a different isssue than home invasion and is a difference issue than domestic violence.

The definition being used for statistics and the incidents used above is four or more injured or killed in the same general time and location excluding the suspect(s).

In my previous comment I had mentioned that the FBI uses the definition of 4 or more killed. I guess in 2013 Congress said it was 3 or more as the suspect was excluded. I do believe the two may still use different definitions? In either case knowing what definition is being used is important in counting the numbers. Knowing what type of violence is being counted is important in counting the numbers. It's important in coming up with a solution(s) and how you approach the situations to get the solution(s). Gang violence for one thing people have tried to work with youths in an attempt to curb them from ever entering into gangs, parental or just a good role model has been attempted in order to curb them from ever entering into gangs. Police departments have tried to do more open communication such as coffee with a cop (though that is also about strengthening the community and building trust and relationships), etc. And that's just some things. Responsible gun owners is unlikely something you can tie into gang violence or home invasions or domestic disputes though I suppose a responsible gun owner has stopped a home invasion before.

 

[longboard55]

So tired of the nothing we can do argument, many examples of things we did that made things better that did not restrict anyone, no better example than driving. We started in the 60s a campaign of safer cars, better training and drunk driving laws and have saved 4 lives out 5 from deaths of car accidents, and guess what, people still get to drive. Same thing happening now with smoking. Look at that teen pregnancy numbers, common sense education has cut the numbers by 2/3s from the 50s.

 

[CdnCarrie]

You can ban guns, but the people who are doing these shootings are mostly purchasing the guns illegally. Do people honestly think that if you pass a law banning guns, these people will go "oh, well I was gonna buy that .45 off of Bob, but since that law was passed banning .45s, I won't get it."??? No, they will just continue to go underground...buy those Russian AKs that seem to stream in along with the cocaine from other countries. Just like they do now.

Why do gun laws work in every other country then? To varying degrees of course. Or is it not the gun laws that is the defining difference?

 

[MaryLovesPoohBear]

If he purchased from a dealer then it shouldn't matter what box he checked, they would have ran a background check.
If it was a private purchase or gun show I don't think they run checks, but then there probably wouldn't have been an application.
This is definitely one area where certain states could change things.

A private sale no.

A gun show, yes. He would have had to fill out the proper paperwork.

 

[wonder whisper]

Why post it!?

Because pretending this sort of evil doesn't exist is not the way to stop it from happening again. You have to look it in the eye, understand and then confront it.

 

[longboard55]

for the record, I can't think of any of these mass shooters who purchased their guns illegally. My favorite is the colorado shooter, out of state, identified mental case living in student housing easily bought a small arsenal of guns and ammunition in a few month span.

 

[Hikergirl]

Why do gun laws work in every other country then? To varying degrees of course. Or is it not the gun laws that is the defining difference?

I honestly don't know enough about any other countries gun laws to really be able to answer that.
All I know is that there are millions of Americans with guns who are responsible owners and who follow the laws.
Then there are those who don't.
What is the difference between them?

 

[Hikergirl]

A private sale no.

A gun show, yes. He would have had to fill out the proper paperwork.

In Texas? I didn't think they needed to run background checks for gun shows?

Is this outdated?
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/s...irearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

Not so much for babies with Down Syndrome.

First of all what does this have to do with the topic?
Secondly its not like fetuses in the US are safer - abortion rates here are around 67%.

 

[longboard55]

In Texas? I didn't think they needed to run background checks for gun shows?

Is this outdated?
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/s...irearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

interesting map, all the green states are significantly safer than the red states. Look up the numbers

 

[MrsDuck]

Our Church installed security cameras years ago when it was routinely being burgled. We have ushers that stand at the door but not enough to act as security - nor is that their job, IMO.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

interesting map, all the green states are significantly safer than the red states. Look up the numbers

I really doubt that all are significantly safer.

 

[wonder whisper]

Sure. It's been pretty well established that rural areas have lower violent crime rates, and obvious the lower potential to come across others has something to do with it. Urban crime rates tend to be pretty stable across different states in the US. It's very hard to correlate crime rates with specific laws. I could get more specific, but that might venture into a political discussion.

Good points. And what is being reported now is that after Kelly started shooting, he was eventually confronted by two armed locals, one of whom is known as an expert marksman. He managed to get a shot into an area of Kelly's attire that wasn't covered by body armor. That wounded Kelly and led him to drop his weapon and get in his SUV to flee. The two locals pursued him in their vehicle and ran him off the road, where he subsequently bled to death.

 

[Hikergirl]

interesting map, all the green states are significantly safer than the red states. Look up the numbers

What numbers?
Maybe you can post them because a simple safest state google comes up with many in the top 10 that are red

 

[LYSE]

Why do gun laws work in every other country then? To varying degrees of course. Or is it not the gun laws that is the defining difference?

Most of the reading I have done point to them not actually working but simply shifting what tools are used in violent crime..overall though many countries have either seen no improvement or an actual increase. Australia and UK included.

I also want to remind people that firearm ownership is a right here, rights are not to be confused with privlidges.

 

[DopeyDame]

Taking this discussion in a different direction...
I think churches, if they are staying true to their mission, will always be uniquely susceptible. Their very reason for existence is to welcome in people - most especially strangers - and bring them closer to [God/Jesus/Allah/whoever]. I've never met a priest/rabbi/minister/etc that would be comfortable with any kind of screening that would keep people away from their church.

 

[longboard55]

I really doubt that all are significantly safer.

Maybe

What numbers?
Maybe you can post them because a simple safest state google comes up with many in the top 10 that are red

california, new York, new jersey, connedticut, massachusettes, Illinois, oregon, Washington, Hawaii all have very good numbers when it comes to firearm death rate, maybe you were unaware