Should churches change security in wake of recent events?

[katie01]

At least eight of the people killed were members of one family, according to a community leader.

Those relatives span three generations and include a woman who was about five months pregnant and three of her children.

This is the worst kind of tragedy. I can't even comprehend the pain of those left behind.

There are no words. I have a hard time responding appropriately to yet another mass shooting.

We’ll never fix this problem until we understand the root cause. What is it about our culture? Can we even change our culture?

I was thinking about what can be done last night. Unfortunately, our 2 party system is a barrier for change. Until we can all get along and stop seeing each other as adversaries, gun laws will never change. And I’m not so sure guns law will even work if we can’t change our culture.

There are brilliant scientists who are non partisan in our country. We need to put politics aside and listen to what those experts are saying or we’ll never fix this.

I totally agree. Open any news article online, even something that seems uplifting or trivial, and read the comments that ensue. There isn't any "discussion" going on, it's name calling and hateful, angry thoughts being spewed. I don't know if there are just a lot of "trolls" that say things to stir people up, or if there are really thousands of people who seem to hate all of humanity, but it's scary and depressing to see. I wish we could all stand together and just admit we don't know the answers, but we will do what we can, try to agree on at least a few things to try, and look out for each other, and try to lift other people up instead of alienating and hating others.

 

[LYSE]

I just bias checked freedomain radio. Thanks, I’ll pass.

Yeah fine I have a problem with some of this thought processes, the cited sources are good though.

But here is some direct reading for you:
https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/1#R1

Australian example, not sure sure what the deal is with this study since it's not US based:

http://c8.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/Lee and Suardi 2008.pdf

http://c3.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/Baker and McPhedran 2007.pdf

We all also need to keep in mind how most firearms deaths numbers include: Suicides and homicides committed in self defence and by police, we need to check whats included in whatever stat we use.

 

[VandVsmama]

Last week, it was a terrorist whose weapon of choice was a car. Plowed into a crowd of people, including school children, on a busy street in NYC. Nut job who decided to target people based on religion (i.e., his perception of their religion, or lack thereof).

Yesterday, it was a terrorist whose weapon of choice was a gun. Nut job who decided to target people based on religion.

Both were evil murderous villains who deserve to rot in hell for all eternity as far as I'm concerned.

Both of the murderers clearly planned out their crimes in advance. The NYC terrorist did practice driving runs in the truck that he rented repeatedly.

Yesterday's terrorist was a mental case. One of the biggest problems in this country is the lackluster mental health care. You can have all the laws you want, but when a really evil person is committed to doing evil acts, he or she will find a way one way or another in order to carry out his/her plan.

Are there some gun law loopholes? Absolutely. Should they be closed? Definitely. For example, some states do permit person-to-person gun sales and those do not go through any sort of criminal background check. There are an awful lot of people getting mental health treatment in the US right now who should, realistically, not be allowed to own firearms...and yet they still do. They go out and purchase a gun and they pass a criminal background check. I have a friend who was a gun owner and had repeat trips to a psych ward because she wanted to kill herself. Her psychiatrist knew that she had a gun, yet the psychiatrist never did anything about it. My friend passed all of the background checks.

Will any of that deter a Crazy Evil Person from getting his/her hands on a gun? No.

Why? Because Crazy Evil Person, if committed enough, will find a way to get a gun illegally...buy it from a drug dealer or something like that.

On our end of town, there's a large evangelical Baptist church. 1 of the ladies who works in that church's office told me once that they regularly have the church office doors locked (you have to be buzzed in) because they regularly get death threats called in at the church office. That's been going on there for YEARS. Their church has volunteers (off duty law enforcement) with concealed carry permits who attend every church service...they're scattered throughout the congregation.

A smaller church not that far away from the mega-church does pretty much the same thing. Their church office is always open when it's staffed with people in the office, but church members attend the services with concealed weapons...those individuals (along with the ushers) keep an eye out for the proverbial CGWAG (Crazy Guy With A Gun)...REGARDLESS of the political or religious leanings of the CGWAG.

I think that what's most important in all of this is ensuring that when you go out into the world each and every day, you should maintain Situation Awareness. Don't walk through life with your nose in your phone. Pay attention to what's going on around you. If something seems "off," listen to that little voice in your head that tells you to go a different direction that day. If the "something off" is a weird guy who seems out of place and your FIRST instinct is to report it to the police...but you talk yourself out of it because of various reasons....call it in anyway.

 

[lifesavacation]

This is the worst kind of tragedy. I can't even comprehend the pain of those left behind.



I totally agree. Open any news article online, even something that seems uplifting or trivial, and read the comments that ensue. There isn't any "discussion" going on, it's name calling and hateful, angry thoughts being spewed. I don't know if there are just a lot of "trolls" that say things to stir people up, or if there are really thousands of people who seem to hate all of humanity, but it's scary and depressing to see. I wish we could all stand together and just admit we don't know the answers, but we will do what we can, try to agree on at least a few things to try, and look out for each other, and try to lift other people up instead of alienating and hating others.

Thank you for writing that! I really am at a loss for words and your post clearly articulated my feelings/thoughts.

 

[IAHFTPT]

I actually popped in to comment on the OP but got distracted by the politics and gun talk.

Many synagogues already routinely have security to protect themselves against potential violent persons.

No doubt where this was gonna go. They always do.

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

Why do gun laws work in every other country then? To varying degrees of course. Or is it not the gun laws that is the defining difference?

I think the culture is the difference. People have different values and thought processes in....let's say, France, than the US. Or Kenya or China or Timbuktu or South Africa. Not only the culture about guns, but about mental illness as well.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I don't mind a reasonable and civil 'gun rights' conversation.
No problem.

I am hearing that this guy, a discharged ex-military, with a record of violence, just walked in and bought this weapon at a Sporting Goods store.
If that is true... THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!!!!
No matter which side of the gun-rights thing one is on.
OMG....
I wonder how far this investigation will go, and if there are anyone will be found responsible in any wrongdoing in the handling of these weapons.

Having said that, I will just throw in what I an others have said.... There are many many ways that a person with evil intent can get a weapon, gun, or other method.
I am not saying that we should forfeit our second amendment rights, and the right to protect ourselves.
I would totally oppose that, at almost any level.
That is, IMHO, a very misguided approach.
it is just an obvious truth that if we outlaw guns, only evil outlaws with have guns.

 

[Wishing on a star]

France was just mentioned....
I will throw in Germany and Britain as well.
Have their 'culture' and gun control laws protected them from the very numerous attacks????
Let's be real here.

 

[wonder whisper]

Really? They don't seem to be reporting this "news" currently.

If you bother to ask them, Google is your friend:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-...ptist-church-sutherland-springs-live-updates/

 

[declansdad]

If this truly is a mental health issue as some people like to say, your country has the biggest mental health crisis in the world.

 

[declansdad]

Unfortunately, the fact MA "banned" them isn't going to stop them from existing, since anyone with basic machine tool skills and access to a $200 lathe can readily find online instructions on how to fabricate them. Nor is it going to prevent them getting into the wrong hands, some of whom may be in MA, because they will obtain them from out of state sources.

You know a lot of people with basic machine tool skills and a lathe?

 

[mnrose]

If you bother to ask them, Google is your friend:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/texas-...ptist-church-sutherland-springs-live-updates/

Except this link says nothing of the sort. Where the heck do you get "muslim convert" and this horrible picture from THAT report. Did you even bother to read it? Apparently not. And, just in case you were wondering comments on an actual news report are not news.

PLEASE stop passing on this fake news. The gunman in this case was NOT a known Islamic convert. He did not change his name. He did not leave a manifesto swearing allegiance to ISIS. This is garbage news, and a HUGE part of the problem. If you had any grace or courage, you'd acknowledge that. Instead, you double down. Read the link you posted. It DOES NOT, absolutely DOES NOT, support the assertion you originally made. I'm appalled.

 

[Liberty Belle]

One fairly inexpensive thing a church could do would be to get a security consultant to come out and look over the church and then hold a meeting to talk about codes needing to be updated and what to do in the event of an emergency. My husband just finished his master's and will be doing this on the side.

We did have a guy a couple years ago come talk to us at church and gave us important information. There were a couple of very inexpensive easy fixes.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Biggest in the world....
Now, that is a nice and lovely generalization and prejudice.
Thanks for that.
Really helpful!!!!

PS: It is evil and hatred and predudice in the human heart to blame here.
Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[LYSE]

You know a lot of people with basic machine tool skills and a lathe?

Someone earlier posted about a crazy who bought pieces of metal and finished them into a functional firearm and then killed 4 people....

The killer doesn't need to be the one manufacturing them..if there is a market someone will be selling it.

 

[DopeyDame]

Last week, it was a terrorist whose weapon of choice was a car. Plowed into a crowd of people, including school children, on a busy street in NYC. Nut job who decided to target people based on religion (i.e., his perception of their religion, or lack thereof).

Yesterday, it was a terrorist whose weapon of choice was a gun. Nut job who decided to target people based on religion.

Both were evil murderous villains who deserve to rot in hell for all eternity as far as I'm concerned.

The nut job with a car killed 8. The nut job with a gun yesterday killed 26, the nut job with a gun a few weeks ago killed 59, the nut job in Orlando killed 47.

Guns kill with far more efficiency than cars, or knives. Let's not pretend that they are equivalent.

 

[wonder whisper]

But why post pictures of the innocent, ex-wife and present wife? They did nothing wrong and you have now put their pictures out there

"I" put those pictures "out there?" Those images have been all over the web since yesterday afternoon and have been visible to any and all including other DIS members long before I shared them. Or put another way, whether or not you like it, in this day and age when a catastrophe like this occurs spouses immediately get pulled into the spotlight. And until the investigation proceeds further, no one is in a position to start declaring whether family members were or weren't culpable. The mere fact they are now visible doesn't automatically put them under "the cloud of guilt" you imply.

your other post saying basically that since he has a beard he is Muslim.

I did not say the beard definitively made him anything. I simply observed that the the presence of a beard was of interest given reports from those in his community that he had converted to Islam.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Was he converted/radicalized or not????
From my limited info, I am not seeing that as a huge possibility?
A whole LOT of uncertain and conflicting info early on.

 

[wonder whisper]

The nut job with a car killed 8. The nut job with a gun yesterday killed 26, the nut job with a gun a few weeks ago killed 59, the nut job in Orlando killed 47.

Guns kill with far more efficiency than cars, or knives. Let's not pretend that they are equivalent.

Oh, really? You apparently forgot the nut job in Nice, France who in 2006 killed 86 people with a truck:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Nice_attack

And the Islamic terrorists who in 2001 used small, inexpensive utlity knives to hijack four aircraft and turned them into flying suicide bombs that killed almost 3,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

Neither of those "brutally efficient" attacks involved any firearms.

 

[sam_gordon]

From presser happening right now...

This had nothing to do with religious beliefs, but apparently stemmed from a domestic incident. Apparently the shooter's ex-MiL attended the church.