Shoe and training question for Coach and other experts

[Figment1990]

So.... I'm training for my first half (W&D), but have been a "recreational runner" (about 10-15 miles/week) for a few years now. I always ran in Nike's, sometimes Trail, but the last pair I had were Vomero +5. In April, I started feeling Plantar Fasciitis, and thought maybe I should look into some new shoes. I typically run on a treadmill and track, b/c i had knee problems (unrelated to running) in the past.

So I bought a pair of Brooks Ravenna's. They seemed ok, more "cushiony" feeling, but I could always feel the arch under my left foot.

Background: I apparently have fairly flat feet, and overpronate fairly significantly when I walk, on my right foot. My right foot is flatter than my left foot also.

So I thought that the Brooks shoes would give me more stability. I ran in them for about 2 months. I could always feel that left arch and it annoyed me, but I dealt with it.

Then two weeks ago, I started developing bad shin splints in that left leg.

Went to a running store and bought a pair of New Balance 860v2's that runners world rates as "more stability" than the Ravenna's, but I do not feel that awful arch sensation. It feels much better to wear the NB than the Ravenna. Problem with those is the ankle collar is very stiff and hitting my ankle in a painful way so I need to try to find another pair.

Also, in both the NB and the Ravenna, I sometimes felt pain on the outside of my right knee/quad.... that was "new" since I switched from Nike's too.

I'm not sure what I should be looking for. I never had shin splints doing high mileage or any other kind of running in my Nike's, which were rated "less" of a stability shoe but it seems the more stable NB don't irritate me either. Is it possible that it is the arch in some of the stability shoes that caused my problems? Is it possible that my running gait has always adjusted to not overpronate, even though I have flatter feet? And does anyone know of a good shoe that would help with both the PF (stiffer shoe???) and avoid this shin splint issue? Do I need stability shoe, but one without a big arch, like the NB?

TIA - I'm going back to the running store tonight, but I like to be knowledgeable and not just rely on sales consultants. This is SO confusing and I had NO idea.

ETA: I also tried a pair of Brooks Adrenaline, which are rated really high for stability and WOW, did my shins hurt more after that.....

 

[PrincessV]

I'm definitely not the expert you seek, but I'm waiting to see their replies! You're so not alone - I've been through a gazillion shoes in the past few years. Thanks to years of ballet, I have chronic tendinitis in both knees and a host of foot issues that stump the poor running shoe store folks. Add in a weird gait caused by scoliosis and it's mostly trial and error to get into the right shoe.

I know exactly what you mean about the bothersome arch bump, though; I had the same experience with Brooks and Asics. Can't stand them. FWIW, I accidentally landed in Mizunos and haven't had the problem at all, no matter how much or how little stability and arch support is in them.

 

[Figment1990]

I'm definitely not the expert you seek, but I'm waiting to see their replies! You're so not alone - I've been through a gazillion shoes in the past few years. Thanks to years of ballet, I have chronic tendinitis in both knees and a host of foot issues that stump the poor running shoe store folks. Add in a weird gait caused by scoliosis and it's mostly trial and error to get into the right shoe.

I know exactly what you mean about the bothersome arch bump, though; I had the same experience with Brooks and Asics. Can't stand them. FWIW, I accidentally landed in Mizunos and haven't had the problem at all, no matter how much or how little stability and arch support is in them.

Oh the price we have paid for ballet! For me it was ballet AND ice skating.... Thanks for replying - it is nice to not feel alone with this! I used to love shoe shopping (course, that was before my knees brought me down off my 4 inch heels) but this running shoe stuff is so frustrating.

 

[halvnorsk]

I definitely don't qualify as an expert and I have NO medical or coaching training. But for about a year or so now, I have been fascinated with the topics of footwear (or lack there of) and running form. I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject and experimenting with my own footwear choices. I don't want to overwhelm or confuse you more (because believe me, it can be overwhelming and confusing). But one thing I have learned that might be of interest to you is that the conventional way running shoes are fitted may not really be as helpful as once thought. It sounds like you have already found this out based on the description of your issues with different shoes. Here is a link with some info about this to whet your appetite on the subject - www.treadlightlybook.com/2012/06/chapter-6-pronate-nation.html.

I believe some of the problems you describe can be attributed to muscle imbalances. The symptoms of these problems can be eased but not necessarily corrected with certain shoe choices.

 

[Ariel484]

Were these shoes recommended to you by the consultants? Did they watch you run and then make a recommendation? Did they let you take the shoes on a short test run around the store? (My local running store lets me do this...they haven't watched me run but they have been spot-on with their recommendations since 2008, so I trust them. But I have heard of other places that actually watch/tape you running.) If you have a pair of older shoes handy, I'd suggest taking those in with you this evening. It will help the consultant to be able to look at how the tread is worn on them.

I too have flat-ish feet but only seem to get shin splints when it's time to replace my shoes. I went to an orthopedic doc in 2009 with knee pain and she recommended that I use inserts in my running shoes. I bought a pair of Powersteps ($25) and WOW. Knee issues completely gone! And they play well with my Brooks Adrenalines.

ETA: NOT an expert!

 

[Figment1990]

halvnorsk- thanks for the link. One of my hypothesis is that I had fallen off my cross-training and strengthening just prior to my shin splints appearing. I'm a big believer in "weakness/imbalance can lead to injury" so I try to include it but had gotten very busy. I know I always run better when I've been consistent with both my core and lower body exercises.

Ariel484- Yes, the store where I bought the New Balance shoes let me run in them, and watched me run in them. I actually think they were a pretty good store and am going to return to them again. I bought the Brooks on my own elsewhere (both pairs) and have learned my lesson! They didn't do a full video analysis though. If anyone knows a place in Pittsburgh, PA that does that, please share!

 

[PrincessV]

Oh the price we have paid for ballet! For me it was ballet AND ice skating.... Thanks for replying - it is nice to not feel alone with this! I used to love shoe shopping (course, that was before my knees brought me down off my 4 inch heels) but this running shoe stuff is so frustrating.

Former dancer AND skater?! Yep, I know your pain! People look at me like I'm nuts when I try to explain, but half a life in pointe shoes totally affected how my feet work.

But one thing I have learned that might be of interest to you is that the conventional way running shoes are fitted may not really be as helpful as once thought. It sounds like you have already found this out based on the description of your issues with different shoes. Here is a link with some info about this to whet your appetite on the subject - www.treadlightlybook.com/2012/06/chapter-6-pronate-nation.html.

This is great - thanks so much for sharing!

 

[cewait]

So.... I'm training for my first half (W&D), but have been a "recreational runner" (about 10-15 miles/week) for a few years now. I always ran in Nike's, sometimes Trail, but the last pair I had were Vomero +5. In April, I started feeling Plantar Fasciitis, and thought maybe I should look into some new shoes. I typically run on a treadmill and track, b/c i had knee problems (unrelated to running) in the past.

So I bought a pair of Brooks Ravenna's. They seemed ok, more "cushiony" feeling, but I could always feel the arch under my left foot.

Background: I apparently have fairly flat feet, and overpronate fairly significantly when I walk, on my right foot. My right foot is flatter than my left foot also.

So I thought that the Brooks shoes would give me more stability. I ran in them for about 2 months. I could always feel that left arch and it annoyed me, but I dealt with it.

Then two weeks ago, I started developing bad shin splints in that left leg.

Went to a running store and bought a pair of New Balance 860v2's that runners world rates as "more stability" than the Ravenna's, but I do not feel that awful arch sensation. It feels much better to wear the NB than the Ravenna. Problem with those is the ankle collar is very stiff and hitting my ankle in a painful way so I need to try to find another pair.

Also, in both the NB and the Ravenna, I sometimes felt pain on the outside of my right knee/quad.... that was "new" since I switched from Nike's too.

I'm not sure what I should be looking for. I never had shin splints doing high mileage or any other kind of running in my Nike's, which were rated "less" of a stability shoe but it seems the more stable NB don't irritate me either. Is it possible that it is the arch in some of the stability shoes that caused my problems? Is it possible that my running gait has always adjusted to not overpronate, even though I have flatter feet? And does anyone know of a good shoe that would help with both the PF (stiffer shoe???) and avoid this shin splint issue? Do I need stability shoe, but one without a big arch, like the NB?

TIA - I'm going back to the running store tonight, but I like to be knowledgeable and not just rely on sales consultants. This is SO confusing and I had NO idea.

ETA: I also tried a pair of Brooks Adrenaline, which are rated really high for stability and WOW, did my shins hurt more after that.....

Sorry but I was not on the net yesterday...

Hopefully you were able to get the issue resolved at the store.

What you describe may be shoe related or may not. Its possible that you developed the PF from an older shoe that should have been replaced.... I could easily attribute the recent issues with differing shoe designs. Traditionally, Nike has a higher heel versus toe box than the other brands mentioned - think high heals. By dropping the heal you can easily overwork the calve and tibial muscle creating the splints. This then creates some extra compensation in the gait and the knee issue soon follows.

If you are not back in Nikes, you may want to try a cheap stabilizer pair for shorter runs just to see how they feel and to help transition into the flatter shoe.

 

[Figment1990]

Sorry but I was not on the net yesterday...

Hopefully you were able to get the issue resolved at the store.

What you describe may be shoe related or may not. Its possible that you developed the PF from an older shoe that should have been replaced.... I could easily attribute the recent issues with differing shoe designs. Traditionally, Nike has a higher heel versus toe box than the other brands mentioned - think high heals. By dropping the heal you can easily overwork the calve and tibial muscle creating the splints. This then creates some extra compensation in the gait and the knee issue soon follows.

If you are not back in Nikes, you may want to try a cheap stabilizer pair for shorter runs just to see how they feel and to help transition into the flatter shoe.

Thanks coach and everyone. I just wanted to update - its still too soon to tell but after going through nearly every shoe in the store I settled on a pair of asics keyanos that are "stability" but didn't have a huge arch protruding into my foot and I ran in them and it did not reaggravate my shin splints. So im happy with that. Now, I'm also stretching, strengthening, massaging, etc so who knows if it is the shoe that helped but I think it was a little from all of that. I'm easing back into my training for the half and hoping that the new asics (which have a 10m heel toe drop) will not aggravate the pf. Do you think thats enough? The one thing I noticed with these are that they are more cushiony in the fore foot than the heel. Should I do some sort of gel insert for the heel? Would that also help with the heel-toe drop situation? Because I'm really having a hard time finding stability shoes that have both the higher drop and not have that big arch.. They didn't have a lot of nikes to try or at leas not ones that seemed to give me stability that they say I need. The new balance ones that I tried but couldn't wear because of the ankle height had a very high drop (17m) so that's probably why I had less foot sole pain for the first time in a long time....

Coach, if you have any advice for pf like exercises to strengthen my foot or stretches (I'm doing some as well as rolling my foot on a ball) I'd be eternally grateful!

 

[poohbear8]

Thanks coach and everyone. I just wanted to update - its still too soon to tell but after going through nearly every shoe in the store I settled on a pair of asics keyanos that are "stability" but didn't have a huge arch protruding into my foot and I ran in them and it did not reaggravate my shin splints. So im happy with that. Now, I'm also stretching, strengthening, massaging, etc so who knows if it is the shoe that helped but I think it was a little from all of that. I'm easing back into my training for the half and hoping that the new asics (which have a 10m heel toe drop) will not aggravate the pf. Do you think thats enough? The one thing I noticed with these are that they are more cushiony in the fore foot than the heel. Should I do some sort of gel insert for the heel? Would that also help with the heel-toe drop situation? Because I'm really having a hard time finding stability shoes that have both the higher drop and not have that big arch.. They didn't have a lot of nikes to try or at leas not ones that seemed to give me stability that they say I need. The new balance ones that I tried but couldn't wear because of the ankle height had a very high drop (17m) so that's probably why I had less foot sole pain for the first time in a long time....

Coach, if you have any advice for pf like exercises to strengthen my foot or stretches (I'm doing some as well as rolling my foot on a ball) I'd be eternally grateful!

I also am one who tried on EVERY shoe in the store! I know the frustration! Hopefully, the new Asics will help. I wore Asics 2150 & 2160 for over pronating until recently when they told me at the running store I didn't need them anymore. I am now in a neutral shoe. They also told me (and I don't know IF it's true), that the shoe you are in WHEN you are treating PF can be different than the one you need when you are healthy. They were the same store who told me (along with the DR) that I needed a stability shoe years ago and I kept buying the same style. It was some knee soreness that took me in for the new pair.

I am no expert, but have gone through PT for PF. A few of the exercises they had me do several times a day were:

lay down a towel and put some marbles on it. Use your toes to pick them up and drop them into a tupperware container.

Every morning before I get out of bed, I had to outline the ABC's with my foot. Imagine you are writing them and go through each letter.

Windshield Wipers: Use an elastic band and imagine you foot is a wiper and go back and forth.

Flex & Point: Use an elastic band and imagine you are pushing on the gas, then flex your foot back.

Ice it by rolling over a frozen OJ can.

I also got a boot for PF (it keeps the foot flexed and stretches the bands in the foot) and slept in it. I found a seller (several years ago) on EBay who sold medical supplies and it was MUCH cheaper than buying it at the doctor's office. They also make a sock with a strap (same idea) which I used and liked. It allowed me to take it to Disney and since it was so small to pack.

 

[APrunner]

While I may not have all the answers for you, just a couple observations:

The pain you described sounds like it could be the IT band. Some people have trouble there from too much stability. You went from a neutral NIKE to a stability Brooks and NB. So this could be an issue for you. Flat feet does not mean you need a stability shoe.

High heel to toe drops are not necessarily a good thing. In fact, it is becoming regarded more and more as a bad thing. If you move to a lower drop, give yourself time to adjust, but in the long run, you will probably be better off. For what it is worth, I have fewer achilles issues in the Kinvara (4mm drop) than any Mizuno I ran in (13mm drop).

@coach, I have to argue that Mizuno is the worst brand with respect to heel to toe drop (not NIKE). Most Mizunos are 13mm. Exceptions being their racers (Musha and Ronin, which are both high for racers). Nike makes quite a few shoes with less drop. I think Mizuno is getting the message, and have some shoes due out in 2013 with less drop.

I think you are on the right track with strength training and massaging. Strength training and foam rolling are great ways to prevent and treat injuries. With strength training, think hips/glutes all the way to your toes. If you are so inclined, work the core and a little upper body as well.

 

[Figment1990]

I just wanted to update everyone and thank them for their advice and comments.

I have FINALLY found a shoe that seems to suit me personally - Mizuno Nexus 6. It has stability but not a big arch digging into my left foot, and a heel drop that I believe helped my sore feet (which I know some would not agree with but for the next 15 weeks until wine & dine, I'm ok with it).

I ran my first "normal feeling" run last night in nearly 3 weeks and woke up this morning with no shin pain and better feeling feet than I've felt in months!

I'm continuing to stretch, strengthen (everything - including my core, not just feet and legs), massage and ice, but I just wanted to thank everyone for encouraging me to keep trying shoes until I found what fit me best. I'm so grateful just for that run last night - it revitalized my passion for running and for training for the race and I no longer feel like I have to give up.

 

[PrincessV]

I have FINALLY found a shoe that seems to suit me personally - Mizuno Nexus 6.

First - hooray!!! Second - I'm because I was in the Nexus 5 last year and LOVED them, for all the same reasons! I'm in the Inspire 8's now and really like them, too, but I've had this urge to try out the Nexus 6's... thinking I might after reading your post.

 

[Figment1990]

First - hooray!!! Second - I'm because I was in the Nexus 5 last year and LOVED them, for all the same reasons! I'm in the Inspire 8's now and really like them, too, but I've had this urge to try out the Nexus 6's... thinking I might after reading your post.

PrincessV - now I'M because I just read your blog and I TOTALLY run to music cadence and count in 8's too! I've finally gotten to the point where in longer runs I can keep my pace steady no matter the music, but mostly I fiddle with my playlist so that all my songs are the pace I need them to be!

 

[poohbear8]

I just wanted to update everyone and thank them for their advice and comments.

I have FINALLY found a shoe that seems to suit me personally - Mizuno Nexus 6. It has stability but not a big arch digging into my left foot, and a heel drop that I believe helped my sore feet (which I know some would not agree with but for the next 15 weeks until wine & dine, I'm ok with it).

I ran my first "normal feeling" run last night in nearly 3 weeks and woke up this morning with no shin pain and better feeling feet than I've felt in months!

I'm continuing to stretch, strengthen (everything - including my core, not just feet and legs), massage and ice, but I just wanted to thank everyone for encouraging me to keep trying shoes until I found what fit me best. I'm so grateful just for that run last night - it revitalized my passion for running and for training for the race and I no longer feel like I have to give up.

I'm happy to hear you found a shoe and had a good run!!

 

[PrincessV]

PrincessV - now I'M because I just read your blog and I TOTALLY run to music cadence and count in 8's too! I've finally gotten to the point where in longer runs I can keep my pace steady no matter the music, but mostly I fiddle with my playlist so that all my songs are the pace I need them to be!

Oh too funny! It's a tough habit to break, isn't it?! I can keep my natural cadence with music that's too slow, but it always feels "off" and cumbersome. But too fast? Forget it; I'm running too fast.

Hope the new shoes are still treating you well!