Service Dogs OKW & ADA...complaint!

[Ms_Butterfly]

Sadly, I feel that much of the issue is due to people passing off pets as SD's and passing off emotional support animals as SD's with the resorts and parks having problems resulting from the abuse.

That is true. And it is despicable that those folks do that.

Unfortunately the fakes and frauds are the ones who complain the most loudly and who impact those of us who cannot travel without our SD's.

I don't think that part is true. Many disabled ppl complain loud and clear! And I should hope that no non-disabled person would actually make a formal complaint (i.e. to the DOJ, DOT, police) or lawsuit, since they have no ground to stand on.

I can tell you that each time we are at WDW I see at least one untrained pet, hear negative and questioning comments from Security about people with their "comfort pets", etc. Fortunately I also see well-behaved dogs accompanying disabled guests who are doing their job in the toughest of circumstances- people petting them and distracting them.

I've never seen another service dog at Disney before, or even most public places. The only times I've seen another one (besides a meetup of ppl who use service dogs - that doesn't count 'cause it was on purpose!) have been two different restaurants (in two different areas) - those seemed to be legit guide dogs - and on airplanes - one a VERY long time ago and two last year (they were on the same flight I was on), one seemingly a legit hearing dog and the other seemingly a fake seizure/hearing dog. I don't recall seeing any others.

While written "proof" is not required, there are two questions which can be asked if your disability isn't apparent..."are you disabled?", and" is that your SD?". Also they can ask, "what tasks does your dog do for you that you cannot do for yourself". On top of that the dog must exhibit exemplary behavior. BTW, I always carry shot records- if my dog were to be bitten or harmed by another, I want my own proof of vaccination for my dog's safety. ---Kathy

The third question is more like, "What tasks has your dog been trained to do for you/to mitigate your disability?" (Emphasis on the "training" part is crucial to help weed out the comfort pets. Emphasis on the mitigating part is crucial, too, as some ppl with comfort pets will say their dog retrieves when that isn't a task the person actually needs - they just think training the dog to do anything makes it an SD, arrgh!)

My dog wears her rabies tag, as per our state's law, so I don't need to bring copies of her records, which stay safely at home. (I soon will be scanning all her vet records and such to put in a .PDF file on my Smartphone, however. I'd like to have access to them when we're in other countries - not just titer and vaccination history, but all medical history.)

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

I hope this is relavent information.
I work for Amtrak's Autotrain and we are not allowed to ask any questions about animals that passengers bring on board other than " What service does this animal provide for you?"

Legally, you can also ask if the person is disabled (yes/no - NOT what their disability is) and if the animal is a service animal (yes/no).

The reply can be almost anything. We are not permitted to challenge anything.

By law you would be - if somebody says it is for comfort or can't name a trained task, the dog isn't an SD and you shouldn't let it on. Perhaps your company needs to look at its policies/what it trains it employees to help keep fakers out.

As a result we have transported "comfort" animals dressed in outfits in baby carrages or purses, snakes, birds, and cats.

Oh my!!

I am in no way try to say anything against real service animals, they are a usually a joy to have on board the train. Unlike the "comfort snake" that got loose in the coaches and ate the "comfort bird". no lie!

Are you serious?! That's really, really funny!!!! Serves them right for lying, too!

 

[livndisney]

Is there a special building/floor at each Disney resort for service animals? I'm assuming Disney keeps track of which rooms have been occupied by a service animal? Does someone with severe pet dander allergies need to request a pet free room?

From what I have been told, WDW's answer to this is "they give ALL the rooms a thorough cleaning". The ADA trumps the pet (dander) allergy in my experience.

I completely understand and agree with the need for service animals (well maybe not the snake.....), but the people who "use" the system to take their pets REALLY bother me.

 

[sorul82?]

From what I have been told, WDW's answer to this is "they give ALL the rooms a thorough cleaning". The ADA trumps the pet (dander) allergy in my experience.

I completely understand and agree with the need for service animals (well maybe not the snake.....), but the people who "use" the system to take their pets REALLY bother me.

Ugg! Did you make a request for a pet free room?

Now don't think I am against service animals.....absolutely not the case!!!

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

While I understand it is your "right" not to have to show proof for the service dog under the ADA, if you have a legitimate right to the service dog and have something to prove it is a service dog (I would think even a letter from a veterinarian) why is this such a big deal? You show the proof--the airline, Disney etc. is happy and you are on your way.

I know it is hard to understand if you don't have an SD or know anybody with one, but it IS a big deal and it does NOT work like just showing proof and be merrily on your way.

Do you remember the time when freed black slaves had to show paperwork that they were free and if they didn't, they'd be taken away and put back into slavery? You think that is discrimination because of their skin color, right? Same thing if disabled ppl are made to show proof that they're disabled/their dog is legit - it is discrimination. What if they forgot the paperwork at home (VERY easy to do, especially if they didn't plan on going to the store on the way home from a friend's house or something but then needed to get something)? You think they shouldn't be allowed to enter a store just because they are disabled?? No, 'cause that is discrimination - nobody else is made to show proof of anything before they enter the store!

If one person shows "proof", ID card, whatnot, that really does train the employees to expect that every SD team has such proof and if they don't, they aren't legit and shouldn't be let in. This is NOT just a what-if - it REALLY does happen and many teams have felt the effects of one team showing their so-called proof to an employee - they have major access problems.

Proof is ILLEGAL for a place to require, so why would you want ppl to do something illegal??

Just because you have the opportunity to exercise some right does not mean you should do so (and calling the sheriff's office? what would you have them do? arrest the CM asking for the proof? having your brother flash his "badge" is a total overreaction too and probably overstepping his ethical boundaries--I doubt very much that the U.S. Attorney's Office wants their attorneys off flashing their badges to accommodate something their family wants). How hard is it to carry a letter from your vet or the service organization from which you got the dog?

Yes, you most certainly should stand up for the law! Do you think it would be okay for somebody to park in a handicap parking space if they're not disabled or don't have a card/plate as proof and then to not have the disabled person who desperately needs that spot not stand up for their needs and rights?? It is the same thing with the rights of those who need SDs, wheelchairs, canes, etc. (Sadly, I have heard about a business that once tried to kick somebody in a wheelchair out 'cause they had just redone the floors and didn't want the chair's tires to mar their "precious" floors!!)

It is illegal for them by FL state law to require "proof", so one can indeed call the police and the police can deal with the situation. (Here's hoping the police actually know the law! Some in some places do not.)

A vet is not equipped to declare a dog an SD or not. Not all SDs are from organizations.

I have two replaced knees; I have a card that says I have metal in my body (not to mention scars on my knees). When I go through a medical detector I regularly get pulled aside and questioned. I could put up a fuss too and scream "ADA" but in my experience once the situation is explained I go right on in and we're on our way. No reason to scream and shout. You just anticipate the issue and prepare for it. Sometimes it's easier to just "go with the flow" rather than swim upstream and no one has to see "Mommy" go postal. . . . . .

That is completely different. Nobody is threatening to kick you out of someplace because of your knees setting off a metal detector (which would be in airports, court houses, and not too many other places like restaurants and stores and such). Nobody is thinking you are faking a knee replacement - nor are there any laws saying some knee replacements aren't allowed (i.e. pets aren't allowed). Everybody working those machines knows that knee replacements are allowed. You don't have to show a card, either.

The only ones trying to swim upstream are the employees who do illegal things like ask for proof.

Instead of spending time firing off letters I would spend the time asking my vet or the service organization for a letter that I could flash if the service dog is ever questioned. Are such questions a violation of the ADA? Probably. But in the end are you really harmed by showing a letter that says it is a legitimate service dog? And if it prevents even one person from bringing the family dog (or snake?) and passing it off as a service animal isn't it worth the trouble? Seems to me that Disney is just trying to prevent people from abusing the system . . . .

Let the flames begin . . . . .

Yes, like I said above, it IS harmful to yourself and other SD teams to flash a letter, certification, etc. which is NOT required nor is there any one type in existance in the US.

There are things Disney can do to help prevent pets from being passed off as SDs, such as ask legally-allowed questions. Instead, the CMs the OP ran into decided to do something illegal.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

There is no recognized 'proof' for someone's dog being a Service Dog (SD). There is no specific organization that licenses and/or trains SDs, so 'proof' doesn't really mean anything. Someone who wants to bring their pet could probably get a vet to write them a letter. Someone could make a pretty official looking card on their computer (and laminate it for good measure).

That is true. Just look at the number of non-disabled ppl who have convinced their therapists to write them a letter so they can call their pet or show dog an Emotional Support Animal to bring them on a plane. (Yes, there are legit ESAs, but there are also fakes.) Also, there are unscrupulous businesses offering fake certification/IDs for dogs they have never seen as long as the person sends them money. It is horrible that ppl sink so low!

A situation that is similar, but in the same vein would be if people were asked to prove they had a driver's license before they were allowed to park in a business' parking lot. Maybe the business has good intentions (un-licensed drivers might have a higher rate of accidents), but people would not be willing to prove they have a right to drive every time they park.

I don't think this is a similar example. But what if places started trying to require proof from wheelchair users that they actually need their WC before they can enter a place with it? Do you think that would be fair? No, well that is the EXACT same thing as with an SD.

 

[mykidsintow]

I am pretty sure they would tell you all of their rooms are "pet free". Service animals are not considered "pets".

They *should* give the room a thorough cleaning, but all rooms should be thoroughly cleaned. I have never seen a nasty/dirty/smelly service dog. Most are very well cared for and groomed above and beyond "pets". I know our last tay at POLY we did a throrough grooming before we left. I took my daughters dog out to walk every eveing upon returning to the room and getting kids to bed. I would then brush him thoroughly.

Sorry ADA trumphs allergy..... We had a similar falling out at a homeschool event last yr. One of the moms went off because Julia had her dog. We have changed groups. I was not going to let my daughter suffer because of that rude moms uncontroled tongue.

Sorry us moms can get nasty over our kids rights.... its nothing personal.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

On the drivers' license example--granted--people would probably stop going to the business that asks for drivers' licenses--but that does not stop the business owner from asking for the proof--would seem to me they have the legal right to require that since they are on private property? Whether it makes business sense to ask for it is another question . . . . .so I think in some respects it is apples and oranges.

Places under the ADA may be private property, but they are PUBLIC places as they are places the public is allowed to go. Any business like that falls under the ADA and doesn't have the right to make their own rules about proof being allowed or whatnot. That includes almost all places in the US - businesses within private homes (the parts where the public is allowed but not the private areas the public isn't allowed), hotels, hospitals (except places like operating rooms where the public isn't allowed and it could be dangerous), stores, groceries, restaurants, etc. Religious organizations (churches, temples, etc.) and private clubs (where the public isn't allowed) are exempt.

Perhaps there should be a national certification for service dogs? Then there would not be chance for someone to "phony up" proof that it is a service dog?

That is a big discussion in the SD community. Some are for it - it helps stop the fakers - and some are against it - who would certify? What if the card is left at home? What would the requirements be (SDs are soooo different depending on the person's needs)? Who would pay for it (many disabled ppl are on very limited funds)? How would certification be accessible to all (including those in remote areas - if it was only in cities, how would they get there and who would pay for it)? Amoung other questions.

 

[SueM in MN]

The third question is more like, "What tasks has your dog been trained to do for you/to mitigate your disability?" (Emphasis on the "training" part is crucial to help weed out the comfort pets. Emphasis on the mitigating part is crucial, too, as some ppl with comfort pets will say their dog retrieves when that isn't a task the person actually needs - they just think training the dog to do anything makes it an SD, arrgh!)

That is what the third question is.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

didn't realize there was a hierarchy of disabilities and that some are more important than others . . . .

I'm not the person you're replying to, but I think what the person means is that you cannot compare having knee replacements with utilizing an SD. They are two completely different things. You don't suffer from access issues, ppl saying nasty things to you, ppl asking you what's wrong with you (unless you use crutches/a cane), etc. You don't have to go through life with a dog by your side. Nobody is going to give a second thought about your having metal in your knees, if they even know. You don't get noticed. With a dog, everybody stares and ppl who don't like dogs or don't think any dogs should be in public complain. You don't get millions of questions every time you go out about your knees. With an SD, you can't complete your shopping or eating without questions from either rude ppl or curious ppl.

While having knee replacements is a big thing (although it may mean you are no longer disabled...), it is completely different from what ppl with SDs deal with every day.

While the ADA has been a great law to create access for the disabled, it is by no means a perfect law and I believe it gets mis-used in a lot of circumstances (not implying that you are mis-using it--mind you). There are reports of people claiming a disability to rent a wheelchair or EVC they don't need, for example, and using the shield of the ADA to fend off any questioning of their need.

It isn't perfect, but it does allow disabled ppl to use places they never could before. Therefore, it IS a success. It is just that some unscrupulous ppl are dumb enough not to "get it" and try to abuse the law, whether it is parking in handicapped spots "for just a minute" or trying to bring Fluffy and Foofoo with them. I'd like to see those ppl deal with having an actual disability for one day, though!!

 

[sorul82?]

Hi Beth. I should not have used the word "pet." I apologize for that.

Yes, I agree that a minor allergy is no comparison. However, some reactions are severe and severe allergies are protected under the ADA as well. The Americans with Disabilities Act defines a disability as "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of the individual," and breathing is considered a major life activity. I am not meaning to hijack this thread. Yes, us mamas are very protective of our children. And no, I don't think service animals are stinky or dirty. I just wondered if Disney kept track of which rooms had previously been occupied by an animal.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

Is there a special building/floor at each Disney resort for service animals? I'm assuming Disney keeps track of which rooms have been occupied by a service animal? Does someone with severe pet dander allergies need to request a pet free room?

No, it would be illegal discrimination for any hotel to require a disabled person to stay in a certain room or building. That is not equal access. Just like you wouldn't like it if they told you that you could stay only in one certain room (prob'ly one in a bad area) because of your allergies (although allergies aren't like disabilities, so it isn't really the exact same thing, just similar).

If you have allergies of any type, you can request an extra cleaning and ask them not to use harsh chemicals or whatnot if you cannot be around those.

No rooms at Disney allow pets - just some camping spots at Ft. Wilderness - so all rooms are pet-free.

I've never heard of anybody having an allergic reaction because there was an SD at one time in the room they were in.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

The ADA trumps the pet (dander) allergy in my experience.

It does by law. Almost all allergies are not disabling, therefore those ppl aren't covered under the ADA. Even if they were, both the person with the SD and and disabling allergy person must be accommodated (i.e. sat on opposite sides of a restaurant, the allergic person take meds, etc.).

Anybody can claim to have an allergy (and many unscrupulous folks do) if they don't want to be around a dog. That's one reason why allergies and fears of dogs are not reasons an SD can be excluded from a public place.

 

[SueM in MN]

I don't think this is a similar example. But what if places started trying to require proof from wheelchair users that they actually need their WC before they can enter a place with it? Do you think that would be fair? No, well that is the EXACT same thing as with an SD.

That is a better example than my driver's license example.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

Yes, I agree that a minor allergy is no comparison. However, some reactions are severe and severe allergies are protected under the ADA as well. The Americans with Disabilities Act defines a disability as "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more of the major life activities of the individual," and breathing is considered a major life activity. I am not meaning to hijack this thread. Yes, us mamas are very protective of our children. And no, I don't think service animals are stinky or dirty. I just wondered if Disney kept track of which rooms had previously been occupied by an animal.

See my above post for why both parties must be accommodated if both fall under the ADA - and why most allergies aren't valid excuses to exclude an SD (like some ppl lie about their pets being SDs, others lie about having allergies or fears of dogs - not to mention most ppl just sneeze, if anything, if there is a dog in a public area).

It would most likely be illegal for Disney to keep track of where SDs stayed. That and they may not know where every SD was.

 

[sorul82?]

See my above post for why both parties must be accommodated if both fall under the ADA - and why most allergies aren't valid excuses to exclude an SD (like some ppl lie about their pets being SDs, others lie about having allergies or fears of dogs - not to mention most ppl just sneeze, if anything, if there is a dog in a public area).

It would most likely be illegal for Disney to keep track of where SDs stayed. That and they may not know where every SD was.

Thank you for your reply. I'm not suggesting that SD's be excluded from anywhere!!! I'm saying that one with severe allergies should be entitled to a dander free room as it is more confined and dander can be more concentrated than in larger spaces.

 

[Ms_Butterfly]

Thank you for your reply. I'm not suggesting that SD's be excluded from anywhere!!! I'm saying that one with severe allergies should be entitled to a dander free room as it is more confined and dander can be more concentrated than in larger spaces.

Oh, I know you weren't suggesting that, don't worry!!!!

Mousekeeping does a good job at cleaning from what I've seen - and if you have any worries, just ask for that extra allergy cleaning thing to be done. (I read about it either on this board or another Disney board a while back.)

 

[livndisney]

I am pretty sure they would tell you all of their rooms are "pet free". Service animals are not considered "pets".

They *should* give the room a thorough cleaning, but all rooms should be thoroughly cleaned. I have never seen a nasty/dirty/smelly service dog. Most are very well cared for and groomed above and beyond "pets". I know our last tay at POLY we did a throrough grooming before we left. I took my daughters dog out to walk every eveing upon returning to the room and getting kids to bed. I would then brush him thoroughly.

Sorry ADA trumphs allergy..... We had a similar falling out at a homeschool event last yr. One of the moms went off because Julia had her dog. We have changed groups. I was not going to let my daughter suffer because of that rude moms uncontroled tongue.

Sorry us moms can get nasty over our kids rights.... its nothing personal.

Wow, I am not sure where this all came from. As I said in my post I SUPPORT people using SD. (all but the snake )
In our case it is not a matter of a nasty/dirty/smelly service dogs. The problem for us comes with the air conditioning system. The hair and "dander" get caught up in there and cause breathing issues. So we end up checking out early and coming home. I did not blame anyone or want to get into a "falling out". It was a simple post answering a question.

 

[sorul82?]

Oh, I know you weren't suggesting that, don't worry!!!!

Mousekeeping does a good job at cleaning from what I've seen - and if you have any worries, just ask for that extra allergy cleaning thing to be done. (I read about it either on this board or another Disney board a while back.)

Another Disney board?

Thank you! I will ask for the extra allergy cleaning.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

Hi folks

Can this get toned down a bit. I will try to do some summarization.

A person can legally, it appears, be asked three questions.

1. Do you have a disability? Not asking what kind of disability or its extent.

2. Is this a service dog (or platypus or gerbil)?

and if the answer to 1 and 2 are both yes, then 3. What tasks has your dog (or platypus or gerbil) been trained to do for you to mitigate your disability?

I do not think that Orange (or Osceola) County Deputy Sheriffs are aware of any enforcement provisions of ADA, especially since it is a Federal law. And what would they do, drag the front desk clerk off to jail? Violation of ADA is civil, not criminal.

If there is a problem, it can be escalated above a desk clerk in a resort. Disney World does have a Vice President for diversity, and a fair size department for it. I am quite certain that ADA compliance would come under the purview of this department and that MaryBeth (the VP, last I knew) would take this situation very seriously.

But any complaining should be done with dignity, indignation, and tone of voice, and definitely not volume.