Seriously backwards thinking....

[Gracie09]

Never said I had all the answers. But I think my suggestions are valid.

It cost us about 6-7000 to move across town a few years ago with all the associated costs. It's not just the moving truck. If she had that money she could do the testing

 

[Pea-n-Me]

^ Plus, you're really upset and overwhelmed when something like abnormal tests come up. As if someone would then have the energy to pick up and move or change jobs right then and there. I don't think so. Those are things you usually think about for a long time and take a while to implement.

 

[robinb]

I have been thinking of what I would do if I were in the same situation as Melissa in the CNN health care town hall (the subject of the OP). I have been in her shoes. Twice for cervical cancer and once for breast cancer. My health insurance for the cervical cancers was more like an HMO and everything was covered with very little OOP expenses. My breast cancer was under a more traditional health insurance and it cost me thousands of dollars until I paid my deductible and then my yearly OOP cap. Luckily, I did not have to think twice if I could afford to do everything I could -- including a second opinion and a ridiculously expensive MRI.

(more later)

 

[DizBelle]

It has everything to do with your OP! You cannot possibly have all the answers to make such a biased perspective when you have no children.

Most mothers that I know, put themselves last. Maybe a mother can put herself in a close second or 3rd if she has one child and a husband (STILL not even first!), but I can guarantee you that a mom of FOUR is a distant 5th or lower in the ranking of her family's needs. Their kids' daily, urgent needs come first - always. When you have to choose between groceries, shoes, school supplies, public school tuition (I paid nearly $1500 for my kids to attend PUBLIC school this year, and our property taxes are ridiculously high on top of it) and yes, even birthday gifts and $10 for a school field trip, and $5.00 so they can participate in the after school walk-a-thon, and all of the other little things you get nickel and dimed for to make your kids feel like kids (these are endless and add up quickly, so I'm not even going to begin to quantify or list them here), most mothers tend to take care of those things first, and the "chance" of diagnosing a serious illness second.

I've been guilty of it myself. It was 5-6 years between doctor visits for me at one point. Then when I did go, I, too, went for a routine screening and they found something. Scariest few weeks of my life. How long had it been there? Why didn't I go to the Dr? Why did I go NOW!? How am I going to afford this? How will I SURVIVE this!" It all ran through my mind. I kind of wish I'd never had even done the screening, kind of. The diagnostic ultrasounds, xrays, and biopsy cost me thousands, plus time off of work, and I still didn't even hit my deductible, much less my OOP. And everything was OK - all benign. But I paid for the tests for the next year, and prayed my kids wouldn't get hurt or sick enough to need to go to the hospital.

Like I said already....you have NO IDEA WHAT IT'S LIKE.

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

 

[Domo]

Sometimes I forget how luck I am to have the National Health Service. No-one left behind, no matter what... that's the idea, at least.

 

[robinb]

Sometimes I forget how luck I am to have the National Health Service. No-one left behind, no matter what... that's the idea, at least.

You are quite lucky.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mother's are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

We all get that. It's just that there are a LOT of steps between having an abnormal pap and dying, and none of us know any details of her situation. But yeah, it does seem like we're beating a dead horse here.

 

[Hikergirl]

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

I completely get what you are saying. I'm a mother of 3, and I will do whatever is in my power to be around for my kids. But you seem to think that doing that is just as simple as saying that. That is what I don't get about your thoughts on this mom. Your posts come off like you are assuming she's just saying "screw them, I'm not going to do anything about this abnormal pap". You are really neglecting the fact that she may very well not be able too due to financial constraints. You have no idea about her life, what she has done, or what she hopes to do, or plans to do. While your suggestions may be valid, they aren't just as simple as going out and doing them because you think she can/should. Have you considered that if those things were so easy, she would have done them and not be in this situation? No, your assumption is that she isn't willing to do anything, and you know what they say about those who assume.

 

[Gracie09]

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

you are make a HUGE leap. There are many steps from abnormal pap to dying. And most women in their lives (myself included) will have an abnormal pap. It can be anything from you had sex too close to the time of the pap to cancer. 99% of the time they are nothing and in fact the recommended cause of action is a repeat pap in a couple months.
If it wasn't a pap but a funny looking freckle, would your reaction be the same? Skin cancer can be deadly. When I went to my doctor for my physical last year, she suggested I see a dermatologist about a funny looking freckle on my back. I haven't been because life, so now I am a neglectful parent? You are judging a woman not knowing any information. You haven't walked a mile in her shoes. You don't know what she is juggling right now. Maybe she has had this happen before the follow-up is its nothing see you in a year.

 

[wilkeliza]

I don't know the person's experience but OP you have got to back off. I lost my mom due to cancer pretty early too and yes there was some stuff we couldn't do to try and give her the best shot because we didn't have the money. We couldn't just move, sell the car, cut back on stuff, etc because there was nothing. My mom was a single mom making about 36K a year as a teacher's aid. We already didn't have extra curricular activities, my brother had to skip braces, mine were given at a significantly discounted price because the orthodontist felt terrible about our situation and said he couldn't let me suffer (I think my mom paid 100 a quarter which does not cover braces at all). My mom was medically forced to retire, we were living on social security. Yes once they found out it was cancer (when it was super late and she was pretty much dead already) she did what she could but we worked inside what our insurance would cover. So the PET scan the doctors desperately wanted to try and have the best shot but insurance wouldn't cover sorry nope she couldn't do it. So they did the cat scan the insurance would cover and then took shot in the dark chances that all the cancer was gone. The experimental cancer drug that doctors said would give her a great chance. Got all set up and approved to for the hail mary by the doctor and the FDA but insurance wouldn't cover it so unfortunately she couldn't take it.

With all that said I never once faulted my mother for not doing everything in her power to fight the cancer that was killing her slowly. My mom fought the best she could and did get almost 4 more years then any doctor ever expected. With that said it wasn't her fault that we couldn't afford the extra stuff that may or may not have given her more time. She tried to set us up the best life possible for after she wasn't here any more and that was the best thing she could have done for us during her fight.

 

[robinb]

OK ... I'm back.

To continue with my thoughts on the subject. If I were in Melissa's current shoes where I needed various tests and treatments but I felt I could not afford them, I would have them anyway. I definitely have a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" mentality and I would see the doctor, have the tests and procedures and arrange for a payment plan later. If cervical cancer is treated right away it's only a few thousand dollars. If you wait and it spreads it can cost up to $100,000 to treat it.

I think it's shameful that these high deductible plans encourage people to think twice about getting medical care. We just moved to a high deductible plan ourselves and I hurt my foot/toe about 3 weeks ago when a heavy glass cutting board fell on my foot. I thought, "Crap. I wonder how much a freaking x-ray will cost just to tell me that my foot/toe is not broken." so I iced it, buddy wrapped the toe and didn't see a doctor. Earlier this week the pain had not gone away and seemed even worse. I bit the bullet and got an x-ray and thankfully nothing is broken. Now I can work though the pain and not worry that it is something really bad. I tell this story because even *I* got sucked into the self-regulation of medical care because of my high deductible plan (and yes, we do have a HSA to cover the x-ray). I could totally understand how Melissa got sucked into self-regulating her care.

 

[mom2rtk]

OK ... I'm back.

To continue with my thoughts on the subject. If I were in Melissa's current shoes where I needed various tests and treatments but I felt I could not afford them, I would have them anyway. I definitely have a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" mentality and I would see the doctor, have the tests and procedures and arrange for a payment plan later. If cervical cancer is treated right away it's only a few thousand dollars. If you wait and it spreads it can cost up to $100,000 to treat it.

I think it's shameful that these high deductible plans encourage people to think twice about getting medical care. We just moved to a high deductible plan ourselves and I hurt my foot/toe about 3 weeks ago when a heavy glass cutting board fell on my foot. I thought, "Crap. I wonder how much a freaking x-ray will cost just to tell me that my foot/toe is not broken." so I iced it, buddy wrapped the toe and didn't see a doctor. Earlier this week the pain had not gone away and seemed even worse. I bit the bullet and got an x-ray and thankfully nothing is broken. Now I can work though the pain and not worry that it is something really bad. I tell this story because even *I* got sucked into the self-regulation of medical care because of my high deductible plan (and yes, we do have a HSA to cover the x-ray). I could totally understand how Melissa got sucked into self-regulating her care.

I think you could receive care in an emergent situation without cash up front. But providers are reacting to all these high deductible plans by insisting on payment up front for the deductible. For the sheer reason that otherwise they will likely not be able to recoup these large amounts later.

 

[robinb]

I think you could receive care in an emergent situation without cash up front. But providers are reacting to all these high deductible plans by insisting on payment up front for the deductible. For the sheer reason that otherwise they will likely not be able to recoup these large amounts later.

I wasn't aware that was happening. We've never been asked to pay anything upfront but my DH's company self insures and has a UHC administer the plan. They bill the insurance company and then we get billed. I wonder if people could arrange a payment plan in advance in the circumstances you're talking about.

 

[wilkeliza]

I wasn't aware that was happening. We've never been asked to pay anything upfront but my DH's company self insures and has a UHC administer the plan. They bill the insurance company and then we get billed. I wonder if people could arrange a payment plan in advance in the circumstances you're talking about.

I am not on an HDH but my fiance is. He has to pay everything up front before he is seen. Thankfully he has that ability. I have a PPO and only have to pay my co-pay up front. Even with a PPO I still have self regulated my medical care. I have the coverage but still make decisions on if I need a doctor or not. Even when I fell on the garbage can and got a pretty nasty experience that could or could not have been broken ribs and punctured lung. I waited an hour to see if the pain went lower and I could breath normally. That was over $100 so I think even with good coverage people aren't immune to self regulated medical care.

 

[Magpie]

.

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

And what if paying for this test means the children don't have winter coats? Or shoes? Or dinner on the table?

How highly would you prioritize a test that may or may not be positive over the immediate welfare of your children?

You say you'd do anything to get that test, and maybe you would. But, if you truly don't have the money, doing "anything" can actually cause real, tangible harm to the children you claim to care so much about.

Of course mothers are important to a child's well-being. So are fathers! But, if she doesn't get this test, she won't die tomorrow, or next week. She very well may not die at all. And financial stability is also important to a child's well-being. Poverty is a terrible thing to inflict on a child. Of course, having a parent die of cancer is also not good for kids, but here's the rub... she doesn't know if she has cancer. If she doesn't, then by not taking the test her children are financially better off, and she's fine as well. If she does have cancer, then taking the test means launching into a whole series of escalating treatments that may or may not save her life, will bankrupt her family, and will leave her children traumatized regardless of whether she survives.

Me, I can have all the tests in the world, without worrying that I'm hurting my children. So, it's a no brainer for me. I'd get the test.

But I still do understand the hard choices other people have to make, even though my experience is different from theirs. Maybe, someday, you'll also be able to understand what the people on this board have been trying to explain to you, and find some compassion for a parent who may very well be trying her hardest, under very emotionally stressful conditions, to do what's best for her family.

 

[mom2rtk]

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

I think the part that's different if you don't have kids of your own is that don't have first hand knowledge of the surprises that come along the way with them, many of which are very expensive.

 

[sam_gordon]

I think it's shameful that these high deductible plans encourage people to think twice about getting medical care. We just moved to a high deductible plan ourselves and I hurt my foot/toe about 3 weeks ago when a heavy glass cutting board fell on my foot. I thought, "Crap. I wonder how much a freaking x-ray will cost just to tell me that my foot/toe is not broken." so I iced it, buddy wrapped the toe and didn't see a doctor. Earlier this week the pain had not gone away and seemed even worse. I bit the bullet and got an x-ray and thankfully nothing is broken. Now I can work though the pain and not worry that it is something really bad. I tell this story because even *I* got sucked into the self-regulation of medical care because of my high deductible plan (and yes, we do have a HSA to cover the x-ray). I could totally understand how Melissa got sucked into self-regulating her care.

But shouldn't we be thinking about whether we need to go to the doctor (or the ER) or try to self medicate? It's easy to spend someone else's money, not so easy to spend yours. It's all a judgement call.

 

[mom2rtk]

But shouldn't we be thinking about whether we need to go to the doctor (or the ER) or try to self medicate? It's easy to spend someone else's money, not so easy to spend yours. It's all a judgement call.

I agree with that. And some self regulation is good. But with the high deductible plans, I think many people are feeling uninsured so will not seek medical care at all. Anything we save (as a collective) by people being careful about when to seek care will be spent later when so many people who put off all care suddenly present with advanced state diseases that are much more complicated to treat.

 

[robinb]

But shouldn't we be thinking about whether we need to go to the doctor (or the ER) or try to self medicate? It's easy to spend someone else's money, not so easy to spend yours. It's all a judgement call.

That's obviously all part of the plan. But playing "doctor mom" often backfires and people put off medical care too long and things that would have been easily (and cheaply) treated right away become acute (and expensive) when treatment is delayed.

 

[Lilacs4Me]

You say I don't know what it's like because I don't have children. But then it seems that I'm the only one really considering them and how this could affect them.

An absolutely VITAL part of taking care of your family is taking care of yourself. As they say on airplanes, put your mask on first. You are going to be no good to anybody if you succumb to cancer. Early treatment is far easier and less expensive than dealing with it in stage 4 (if it can be dealt with at all at stage 4 that is). We're not talking about some virus that mom can just "power through". This is, potentially, cancer that could very well result in death.

Is it ok to have an opinion if a mom is doing something more directly to harm her children? Like not making sure they have a winter coat when it is 10 degrees outside? Or not providing them with shoes? Or not feeding them? Or do you just have to say that you don't know their whole story and just let it go?

I think, with this, I'm done with this thread. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change my mind that mothers are important to a child's well being and if they have one, it is important to take steps to ensure that she stays around. I just find it really strange that so many are ok with potentially leaving children without their mother when it could have been avoided.

In my mind the MOST VITAL part of taking care of my family is taking care of my family, not myself, first. That's the difference between being down in the trenches with 4 kids and not having kids and thinking of yourself first. Should it be that way? Ehh, I don't know. Is there merit to the "oxygen mask first" thing? Sure. Does it always happen when you are the mom? No. My feeling is that you would understand that if you were a mom. I have a LOT of non-mom friends in their 30's, 40's, and 50's, and the one thing all of them have in common is how many times they say to me "You sure do a lot for your kids. When do you take time for yourself?" My answer is always "Ummm.....when everything else is taken care of." Which is never. They look at me like I have two heads, and I look at them like they will never understand why I am OK with it. Then we move along in our own lives without judgement. You should to.

Bottom line is, that mother had to have been thinking how in the world she was even going to tell her kids that something was wrong if the additional tests came back cancer-positive. I know I was a hot mess when I got my call backs and the waiting in between tests/results was nearly unbearable. Almost all I could do in those few weeks was try not to cry and try to stop the panic attacks from coming on every time I thought about the possibility of having to tell my kids I had cancer. There was no way I was going to tell them anything that I didn't need to, and even less of chance that if I did end up having it, that I would upset their lives by making them move out of their house and into a cheap apartment.

Personally, yes, I would try to do everything I reasonably could to get better and not just give up and die, but there are so many other things to consider, too. I am the kind of person that makes things happen when I need to, but sometimes it is with a delay. When I went for my biopsy after the initial screening and subsequent diagnostic tests/ultrasounds showed a mass in my breast, I was scared to death the registrar was going to deny my registration until I paid the deductible. I made the appointment and went, but if she would have sent me home because I couldn't pay that day, I would have had to go home, and weigh the costs of the tests/biopsy vs the likelihood of the mass actually being cancer, then wait until I could save the $2700 to pay for it. That's just how it goes sometimes when you are the mom in charge of raising a bunch of kids. They still need to eat and be sheltered with electricity and running water no matter what, right? Luckily for me, when she asked for payment, I told her that I needed a copy of my EOB first, and she said OK, it will be mailed to me in two weeks and I could pay then. Not every hospital is that nice.

As for the coat example....my teenager hates wearing a coat and claims he is never cold. And DD wears a fleece Northface jacket all winter (that I bought for ten bucks on our towns Facebook swap site) instead of her JCPenny brand winter coat (Oh the horrors!), so your criticism of what other people's kids are doing rolls right off my back.

Not feeding them goes into a whole 'nother topic altogether, so I won't even go there.

And since Pea-And-Me is right and we are just beating a dead horse here, Good luck and Take care!