Separating school discipline from home...

[kirstenb1]

Look, if you don't reinforce his punishment at school with punishment at home, you'll reap what you sow. Really....I don't understand how this is in question. If our dds' get in trouble at school, they lose privileges at home.

 

[LoriABil]

As far as discipline, in our house it was "Blue face means no TV, no friends". DS understood, and taking things away has always worked with him. Of course, every kid is different - but a 5 year old should be able to make the connection.

That said, I'd cut him a little slack. Kindergartners need consistency, which is seriously lacking at school right now! He is probably stressed out!

 

[SandrA9810]

My other thought, is this sub turning around all the student's cards?? Is she keeping them active in the classroom, either hands moving or minds thinking??

If all the kids are hearing all day is "johny, stop that" "sarah, don't do that" "michael don't talk". There's some serious lacking of teaching going on. And guess what, the other kids really don't care about the teacher paying attention to the other child, so they will continue to act out. Now if there happens to be one bad child, who your son is watching and mimicking, then you need to address that the other child's actions should not be followed.

I know that, if the teacher wasn't saying anything important, I wasn't paying attention to her. So if all she was doing was disciplining or turning other kid's cards... yep I was in my own little world. What did I care about a classmate doing?

Is it possible to be in his classroom more often?? If you go over classroom rules prior to class starting, and then you can directly tell him what his wrong actions were. I'm sure there's small breaks throughout the days.
So say in the morning, he starts talking to a friend. Teacher turns his card.
Class goes on a small break, you take him aside and say "why did you card turn?" He gives you a response. Then you can tell him "ok, no tv today when you get home".
Class continues. He start making funny noises to be distracting. Teacher turns his card.
Class gets a small break. Then you can tell him, "Bed time is a half hour earlier".
If he acts out again, you could give him extra homework to do.

Some times it's hard dealing with a one sided or incomplete story of what happened that day. Even the teacher doesn't seem to be painting a clear picture.

 

[a1tinkfans]

Any advise out there...

I'm finding myself very frustrated with my son's school lately.
I have three older kids, the last one graduated High School last year, so I'm not really new at this.
I have two younger kids, one just started Kindergarten.

His teacher has been out for two weeks and will be out again next week.
They won't give out any information as to when she will be returning or why she is out.
My son is really stressed out about it.
He even woke up crying two nights this week saying his teacher is dead.
I understand respecting the teachers privacy but I wish they would give us some clue as to when she might return.
They were very rude when I asked if they knew when she might be coming back
or if she was taking an extended leave.
They said they just can't comment on the situation.


Then... I'm having an issue with their method of discipline.
They have smiley faces. They start the day with a smiley face.
Then they change it to a yellow warning face.
And then to a Blue sad face... which is a call home.
So two days this week DS got a call home.
I talked to him about what happened but he's FIVE.
He really can't have a big conversation about it.
I am worried that he is going to think a call home is no big deal.
I really don't want to get on him right when he comes home.
I just feel like they should do more to handle the discipline at school.
I don't feel that I should have to discipline him at home for something that happened at school.
Plus a five year old is not really going to make the connection 4 hours later.
Am I supposed to punish him at home for something he did 4 hours earlier at school?
Can someone explain the best way to handle "The call home"
Thanks
Suz

Suz
First , Breathe....it'll work out!
My personal feeling is that HOME is the sanctuary for the child. Things that happen at school should be handled there unless absolutely necessary...thus coming home, but thats juts me...
As far as the teacher being out and your concern that your child is getting affected by it...thats valid....is there a class mom who could at least approach the admin to say, kids are scared, etc...no need to divulge teacher issues, but parents do deserve to have an idea if/when someone will be returning or per chance, not returning.
Good Luck....you sound like a great mom, hang in there, hope it all works out.........and quickly!

 

[PFlamingo]

Coincidentally, I'm currently subbing for a teacher for an indeterminate amount of time. Even I don't know how long it will be. It's a personnel issue, and therefore subject to all kinds of legal/privacy issues. No one other than the principal & superintendent knows whether this teacher will be back.

It so happens that I taught at this school for many years, which is why they called me to sub. I've been lucky to have students whose parents backed me up when I corrected or had to discipline the kids. But to tell the truth, there wasn't (and isn't) much that teachers can do these days, other than call home and ask the parents to deal with their kids. We can't put them out in the hall because there are rules about students being supervised at all times. We can't take away recess, because we have to be out supervising the rest of the class. For the most part, a look from me will do the trick, and "you really don't want me to call home," usually results in a "no, ma'am" and an end to the behavior, b/c the kids know their parents will back me up - and the parents know that if I'm calling home, there really is a problem. They also know I'm working to give their children an excellent education.

And then there are the parents (few of them, thankfully) who insist that their little angel "wouldn't do that" or "doesn't do that at home." Well, little angel probably doesn't do it at home b/c there's no audience for it like at school. Or they do, in fact, do it at home and the parents ignore it or allow it (like backtalk).

It's taken me a lot of years to hone those teaching and classroom management skills. Every teacher has to start somewhere, and it's just not possible to have a highly experienced teacher in every classroom. I have to say, I've worked a lot of different jobs in my life and teaching was probably the most difficult. We're expected to teach the curriculum in a lively and entertaining way, maintain discipline without damaging anyone's self-esteem by actually correcting them, know everything that one child says to another or does to another lest we miss any bullying that might occur, watch for any emotional issues that might be affecting the child's behavior, be aware of any and all potential learning disabilities a child may have and have an alternate teaching strategy to address that, and do all of this while dealing with all of our own personal, financial, and emotional issues without letting them affect our work. Most of us spend a lot of our "family time" grading papers, preparing materials, and writing lesson plans. Definitely not an 8-hour-a-day job. We don't even get to go to the bathroom unless it's a planning period or lunch time. The sub is probably trying to do the best she can in a difficult situation.

So, yes, I do expect parents to deal with behavioral issues from school at home. Teachers have too much to do in the classroom to continuously deal with the same thing day in and day out. Okay, I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

 

[disfan07]

As far as the teacher being out and your concern that your child is getting affected by it...thats valid....is there a class mom who could at least approach the admin to say, kids are scared, etc...no need to divulge teacher issues, but parents do deserve to have an idea if/when someone will be returning or per chance, not returning.

I still dont understand why the admin. is responsible for telling parents if or when a teacher is coming back? Most likely, they dont know because if a teacher is NOT coming back at all, they defintiely would have been told. I have had 4 teachers leave in the middle of the year (2 in elem. 1 in middle, 1 in high school) and all four times, we got letters home saying that they were not going to be coming back.

At the preschool I worked at, we had a teacher who was out for a while. When parents asked when she would be back, we couldnt tell them. 1) No one knew for sure. 2) that is still considered private information. We just told the kids that their teacher had something that they had to do somewhere else and that she hoped that they could be good and listen to the new teacher while she was there. That was it. None of the kids or parents had a problem with this adn the kids handled it wonderfully. I dont understand why that cant be the explanation for these kids

Really, how well do you think it would go over with parents if you told them that a teacher would be coming back at a certain time but than they didnt?

 

[gina2000]

Do you set standards and boundaries for your child? If you do, then you must follow through on both sides of the coin. If a child rises to the occasion and achieves (i.e., grades, tests, report cards), you congratulate and celebrate. If a child initiates inappropriate behavior, you discuss the rules, caution the child as to his/her inappropriate behavior, and then take away privileges in order to reinforce your position.

Both situations may occur outside of the house. If you only celebrate the positive without establishing and following through on the negative, you are only doing half the job.

Sorry, that's a no brainer.

 

[kellyg403]

OP, I do understand your issue re: the Sub. My ds, in 3rd grade had a teacher who was there for the first month and then was gone thru Christmas break. When she did come back, she let all the parents know thru a newsletter/email type thing that her child was ill, would be in and out of the hospital and she will be using the same sub when she had to be out. The sub, unfortunately, for my on was a little bit tooo nice. She called right before Thanksgiving to tell me that my son, who had been doing his homework at home was not turning it in and had not been for TWO WEEKS! Trust me, we handled it at home because I knew he was taking advantage of a really nice lady to play around. It was a difficult time BUT, my ds did not do well with change and was really good at reading how things were going to be.

I will say that I think at 5 there should be discipline at home and school. Regardless of the whether it is a sub or reg teacher. I think being supportive and acknowledging poor behavior is important at this age. At the 5th grade level I could acknowledge for smaller offenses the school had already discipline the child with time out from recess, silent lunch etc. They already knew the rules and if sitting without talking to thier friends is what it takes thats o.k. with me. At the younger age, doing what their friends do in the example you stated is still poor behavior. And I would believe each time I got the call home I would make sure the behavior was discussed/punished. One teacher with 8 kindegarten boys/girls that are stepping out of line, rolling on the floor etc etc should be able to call home and say 'help' your child is not listening and the parent should reinforce that 'listening' is a very important kindegarten skill.

Whether the teacher is a sub, or a new teacher and regardless of her ability to 'control' the class, she is asking you the parent to help her find your child's currency so that she CAN control him and the class. By having to constantly stop the class to call out unruly students is not good for the other kids.

I would watch my child's class one day without my child even knowing I was there. See what he is up to before I assume the teacher is in the wrong. You say you volunteer one morning a week, but your child knows you will be there so possibly on his best behavior. Just showing up one day just might change your opinion. It might reinforce the opinion your child needs to be moved to another class. Either way it will be an informed decision and the best thing for your child.

Kelly

 

[MM27]

And then there are the parents (few of them, thankfully) who insist that their little angel "wouldn't do that" or "doesn't do that at home." Well, little angel probably doesn't do it at home b/c there's no audience for it like at school. Or they do, in fact, do it at home and the parents ignore it or allow it (like backtalk).

And that doesn't just happen when there is a sub in the room. The parent that I spoke about earlier told me that same thing. Her son said he didn't do what I was calling about and she didn't believe that he would do something like that. Unfortunately I'm not just going to say okay and be done with it.

I looked in this kid's folder in the office and found a huge stack of discipline letters (I'm talking at least 50). Several of them had notes on them that said the principal (different school) had called or met with the parents and the parents said their child wouldn't do this or that. There is nothing I can say or do to change these parents' minds because the kid is now in 4th grade and they have been in denial for his whole life. What I can do is make sure that at school he is dealt with.

 

[torinsmom]

I haven't read the whole thread, but as the teacher of 4-6 year olds, it sounds like someone needs to tell them something about what is going on with the teacher. I am not saying to tell them details, but "Ms. Jones is having some personal problems she needs to take care of. She misses you guys and hopes to be back with you as soon as possible". And then they could make cards for her saying they miss her.

It also sounds like the new teacher may need some help with classroom management. I try to use positive discipline to get my kids to behave. Instead of calling a child out for playing in line, I will say "I like the way Jimmy and Katie are walking so nicely with their hands behind their backs and their lips zipped." You would be amazed how well that works with the ones that are messing around. We also have a jar that we try to fill up with beads. The kids get a bead if they have an overall good day. When the jar fills up, we have a party. I will only call a child's parents if the child is consistently acting out and things like silent lunch and time out are not working. At that point, it is time for a conference for us to brainstorm what we can do to help the child be more successful.

Marsha

 

[Wishing on a star]

I DO agree with backing up discipline when truly necessary.
Anyone who has suggested otherwise would be completely and totally wrong.

I simply do not agree that this would be the acceptable action in this case.

I would not discipline my child because a teacher was unable to maintain adequate structure and discipline in her own classroom.

If 'messing around' is the best this teacher can come up with, not (hitting, throwing, yelling, etc..) no way am I going to discipline my 5 year old for 'messing around'.

Yes, teachers are there to TEACH....
But, in K, the first semester, the biggest thing that the teacher is supposed to be teaching is how to exist/behave in a school/classroom situation... (sit quietly during this time, walk nicely in line, etc... etc...)

I would not discipline/punish/stress a child who is already having issues with anxiety.

Those who are crying boo-hoo, a teacher can't do anything to discipline a child are also very very wrong. I've been around the block long enough to see different methods of discipline.
both effective - such as sitting our recess on the sidelines... being place with their seat isolated from the others so that they are not interacting/messing around. Being sensitive to any valid issues that may be contributing to the problem ( don't sit this kid next to this kid... being aware of anxiety... etc... )
and ineffective - constant threats and warnings with NO other action whatsoever to further overwhelm and stress the child.

Stressing a child and a parent with a negative and constant threats is just NOT the way to go. And, I would NOT enable that.

 

[Wishing on a star]

OP, I fully believe that if there were no underlying problems with this new teacher, and your son could handle her classroom, that there would be NO nightmares about the fact that original teacher might not be returning.

 

[torinsmom]

I DO agree with backing up discipline when truly necessary.
Anyone who has suggested otherwise would be completely and totally wrong.

I simply do not agree that this would be the acceptable action in this case.

I would not discipline my child because a teacher was unable to maintain adequate structure and discipline in her own classroom.

If 'messing around' is the best this teacher can come up with, not (hitting, throwing, yelling, etc..) no way am I going to discipline my 5 year old for 'messing around'.

Yes, teachers are there to TEACH....
But, in K, the first semester, the biggest thing that the teacher is supposed to be teaching is how to exist/behave in a school/classroom situation... (sit quietly during this time, walk nicely in line, etc... etc...)

I would not discipline/punish/stress a child who is already having issues with anxiety.

Those who are crying boo-hoo, a teacher can't do anything to discipline a child are also very very wrong. I've been around the block long enough to see different methods of discipline.
both effective - such as sitting our recess on the sidelines... being place with their seat isolated from the others so that they are not interacting/messing around. Being sensitive to any valid issues that may be contributing to the problem ( don't sit this kid next to this kid... being aware of anxiety... etc... )
and ineffective - constant threats and warnings with NO other action whatsoever to further overwhelm and stress the child.

Stressing a child and a parent with a negative and constant threats is just NOT the way to go. And, I would NOT enable that.

Yep, lots of things I can do at school: sit a child out away from group time, have the child have silent lunch, have them sit and watch the other children play at recess, have them sit at a one-person table during worktime, etc. It has to be a really bad behavior, like hitting, or something that none of my consequences are working for, for me to call a parent.

 

[PFlamingo]

Yep, lots of things I can do at school: sit a child out away from group time, have the child have silent lunch, have them sit and watch the other children play at recess, have them sit at a one-person table during worktime, etc. It has to be a really bad behavior, like hitting, or something that none of my consequences are working for, for me to call a parent.

True, and we have used some of these methods. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. And sometimes we end up on the phone with the parent anyway, when the parent calls to ask why little angel lost recess for "no reason." Thank goodness most parents know that teachers are way to busy to "pick on" their child for "no reason." Do we sometimes catch one child and not another for the same offense? Sure. And what I tell my students is if you want a sure-fire way to avoid the consequence, don't do the behavior in the first place. I also try to use a lot of positive reinforcement with my students. Most of the time it works great, and I much prefer that to punishment.

But in these days of teacher accountability and AYP, the pressure is on the teachers to teach the curriculum and produce high test scores. Tough to do that when you have even one or two kids who are consistently disruptive. And I don't mean hitting, I mean talking, out of seat, distracting the other kids, not doing their work, and arguing with me about why this is unnacceptable - or trying to - I have ways of shutting down the argument quickly. (I teach middle schoolers, but I've seen K, 1, & 2's argue with their teachers, too.)

It starts at home, with parents reinforcing that the rules in the classroom are to be obeyed, regardless of what any other child is doing, whether or not the child likes the teacher or the work, or whatever. I'm always astounded by the kids who seem to think classroom behavior is negotiable, but then I see how they are allowed to speak to, and argue with, their parents. But in our family we didn't argue with our parents or our teachers.

 

[Eeyores Butterfly]

The problem teachers face is that some parents expect a call for the tiniest things, while others never want to be contacted. It's difficult for new teachers to discover where to draw the line.

Exactly. We use a tally system at our school (tallies for redirects). I modify it for my classroom and make it tallies for safe seats since I teach sped. We also do a happy, neutral, and sad face. All my kids know my criteria and know that one safe seat is not necessarily a sad face. If there is even one tally (and it could be something as simple as Johnny was talking out after being warned), I have to call this one set of parents. Thankfully he's not one that normally gets in trouble.

Most parents don't want that. When I call, I'm calling because it is a continued problem or because they did something to physically harm another child or a staff member, everything else gets written in their folders. Phone calls are my absolute least favorite part of the job, so if I'm making one, it's something serious.

OP: A sticker chart is a great idea. Maybe suggest to the sub that she use one at school and you do one at home. I subbed while I was getting my degree, so I wasn't fully certified yet. It was stressful. At least in our state, to sub you must have 60 hours of college credit- that's it. Our district will use certified teachers for longer term positions, and we do have the ability to request subs we know are good, but not every single sub is going to be an experienced, certified teacher.

 

[ilovejack02]

Truthfully, the school shouldn't have to discipline your child. Your child should not be doing anything that requires discipline. Your son misbehaving is not the subs fault. Teach your kid to behave and listen to whoever the authority figure is in the classroom. There are lots of 5 year olds that can do this, there is no reason your son can't be one of them. You can make every excuse in the book, the sub has no control, etc, but it all comes down to the simple fact that your son should not be misbehaving.

It's a paren't job to teach their child how to act in public. If they are not acting correctly in public, it's the parent's responsibility to correct the behavior and teach them proper behavior. Maybe if parents would take more time and do this, teachers could spend more time on what they are supposed to be doing, teaching our kids academics.

I totally agree with this.

If DS8 had misbehaved with a sub , I would have disciplined him at home. I would do all I can to make sure he understood that I expect him to behave the same with the Sub as he does with the original teacher.

Sorry OP , it is time to get a handle on this. YES he needed to be disciplined at home for what he does at school.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

I currently teach high school, so I rarely call home; if I do call, I expect support from the parents. This is not always the case, but it really is important for the parents to reinforce the importance of following school rules at home. This is especially important at age 5, because a child at this age needs that reinforcement and possibly an explanation, whereas a teenager knows that he/she is violating a rule.

In all the schools in my district, a parent is not allowed to come in without approval from the principal unless they've made an appointment to see someone. Security will not let anyone else through.

As far as how to handle the call home, I would start by asking every single day "What happened in school today". I would ask happily, without any touch of interrogation. Once you are in a pattern like this, it is easy to spot "bad days" and "good days". If you get a call home, you can say something like "Mrs. So and so called. She told me x happened today. Can you tell me about that?" Then after the child has had an opportunity to summarize, you can better address the situation. If there is something other than his behavior that is escalating the situation (there are teachers, esp. substitute teachers, who are new and make mistakes) then you can address it with the teacher privately or make an appointment. I would probably end the conversation with the child by saying "Mrs. So and so said she really wants you to learn how to do y, so she wanted to ask if you would pay extra special attention and not do x in school again." You can also institute a reward at home for good school work, I know I had that policy every marking period as a child since kindergarten. Good report = small toy/book/ice cream cone.

I totally agree that extended leave time means a long term sub with experience should be in the room, but this isn't always possible, at least in my district and those near me. People voted budgets down and reduced school budgets and many long term subs were fired. There is a skeleton crew of these permanent subs and most of the daily subs are college kids who don't have classes during the day on that particular day or retired people who have benefits from a former career or a spouse.

Maybe this teacher had a family problem or a personal issue. Teachers are entitled to privacy and whatever happened is not the public's business. I know of teachers who have had loved ones commit suicide or be killed suddenly, have been diagnosed with a terminal illness, have had miscarriages, etc. and this is certainly not something that needs to be reported to the students, their parents or even colleagues.

Those who know they are leaving (maternity leave, scheduled surgery) usually get the perm subs assigned first. Those who have an emergency like those I listed above, usually get whoever is available when the school gets the unexpected call. The school might not have an idea when she is coming back if it was a true emergency.

OP- I hope your child's teacher is okay and I hope she comes back soon for the good of all involved. It sounds like the kids are eating this sub alive.

 

[MELSMICE]

Truthfully, the school shouldn't have to discipline your child. Your child should not be doing anything that requires discipline. Your son misbehaving is not the subs fault. Teach your kid to behave and listen to whoever the authority figure is in the classroom.

I thought I had perfect children like this too. Then, all of a sudden, they did something totally unexpected, misbehaved once & I had to discipline them. It was a horrible realization for me.

Seriously, even the best kids misbehave at times.

My son would look at kids rolling on the floor and make a mental note to tell me about the “naughty boy at school”.

My kids have done this too, but they still have their moments. They also fail to tell me about the times that they aren't so perfect & I've found out on my own.

BTW - I'm all for reinforcing discipline at home when something happens at school. In this case a conversation with the teacher asking for a phone call when the OP's son acts up. The OP could then use the sticker chart/reward system. When a phone call is made there is no special treat/no sticker/something is taken away. Simple as that. I also think in this case there might be an issue with the teacher not being able to control the class - this is just my assumption from what I've read on here.

 

[mumom95]

I thought I had perfect children like this too. Then, all of a sudden, they did something totally unexpected, misbehaved once & I had to discipline them. It was a horrible realization for me.

Seriously, even the best kids misbehave at times.


.

I never said kids don't ever misbehave. But to get a call home twice in a week means that the kid is misbehaving multiple times a day, twice in a week. The well behaved kids don't do that.

 

[mjkacmom]

I never said kids don't ever misbehave. But to get a call home twice in a week means that the kid is misbehaving multiple times a day, twice in a week. The well behaved kids don't do that.

I agree, but it doesn't always reflect on the parenting. I have a child who literally is perfect - to the extend that even her friends' parents are amazed. She's kind, gentle, a real people pleaser. She doesn't argue, she doesn't whine. I'm dreading her teen years, because I suspect she is going to be the worst.

I also have a ds who seems to constantly be in trouble (little things). He has a temper, impulse control issues, and get get riled up easily. He's had the same parenting as his sister (well, with a LOT more discipline and punishments, of course). They're just wired very differently.

I also have one that, after many years of getting calls from the school (a couple phone calls each year), that completely turned it around, and now is total rule follower, and goes out of her way not to get in trouble. I remember once when she was very exhausted (in a play), and I offered to call the school, and say she was sick. She was horrified!