Selling of the fastpass....

[t_catt11]

Personally, I don't think that selling one is really illegal...as in some statute was violated and the cops are coming to get you. It is, however, against the wishes of Disney...the legal owner of the property. They have a good reason. Would you want a family theme park to suddenly be overrun by a bunch of Fastpass scalpers? It's just too messy. Morally, I don't see it as a commandment breaker unless you interpret the selling of a free item to a slightly dim individual as stealing.

This is a theme park, not some religious shrine. In other words, I doubt that you might be having a visit from a group of FBI agents over it and it is also doubtful, with all the other problems in the world, God would take the time out to pour his/her wrath down on you.

Some things are just internally right or wrong and that is the biggest part of the guideline. The second biggest is that if Disney finds you scalping FP's there is a good chance that your supply train will derail quickly.

Agreed. You won't get arrested or fined. You may find yourself escorted to the exists and your tickets revoked. Be particularly egregious, and you might not be allowed back in.

Wheaton's Law, people.

 

[t_catt11]

You are right not hard to understand. Dont know why it is for you though. If people hoarded FPs just because they "might" use them later in the day or "just in case" or because they wanted to spread "pixie dust" then it would stop people from getting FPs at TSMM or Soaring because of the actions of these hoarders by taking some of the limited supply of FPs. It was an issue for guests that couldnt get FPs for TSMM and Soarin.

Whaaa? TSM and Soarin run low on fastpasses because they are extremely popular, slow loading, low capacity attractions. No less, no more.

I've been to Epcot and DHS many times. I have yet to see the bigfoot-esque fastpass hoarders who ruin everyone's vacations by deciding arbitrarily who deserves fastpass and who does not. Be serious.

Again, and you must have comprehension issue in play again because the FP policy didnt change but enforcement of it did.

Why does Disney have non-nontransferable on the back of its FPs? That is pretty cut and dry that you arent to "transfer" them to another person and thus against Disney policy. Amazing the verbal gymnastics people will try to do when defending their abuse of Disney policy and systems

Wrong again. Printed operational documentation SPECIFICALLY stated that late fastpass was to be allowed. I have personally witnessed TSM CMs *loudly* announcing that the passes were valid any time up until park close.

That has now changed. Late fastpass is no longer allowed, per Disney policy. Deal in facts, please.

As for transferable, believe what you want. Note that the wording itself has changed to specifically state NOT FOR SALE.

Really, come on. You cant really believe that. It has been reported that even pre FP enforcement days, that certain CMs at attractions wouldnt let guest use FPs past the window. In the 2012 Unofficial Guide, it even mentions this and it recommends to return later when another CM is working and they should let you use a late FP. SO..according to your logic and words, prior to March 7th and FP enforcement, if a CM said someone couldnt use a late FP then it was what Disney's policy was? What kind of flawed thought process are you using to come to that conclusion?

999 times out of a thousand, this was a training issue, or a situation where a ride had been broken down and was behind, and an attraction manager made a management call to temporarily suspend late fastpass so that the bottleneck could be resolved (which is within SOP).

How many times do we see where CMs on the phone give incorrect information? Or if you ask a CM in a park, and they steer you wrong? Occam's razor, man. If 99.9% of the time, something is allowed, it is silly to presume it to be the exception and the .01% to be the rule.


Sigh. Why do I keep feeding the trolls?

 

[Friendly Frog]

I did not read every post, but I read enough to want to comment about "Rules".

The problem with making rules is that it is nearly impossible to predict every possible scenario. Rules should be enforced by flexible people capable of making informed decisions.

For instance, while I agree that you should not take a fastpass unless you plan on using it yourself, I honestly suspect that Disney's rules on non transferable fast passes were to prevent actions such as secondary distribution control ( taking something you are not intending you use yourself) of a larger scale (Angels) or profit making schemes. I seriously doubt if Disney's intent was to prevent a person who legitimately felt that they were going to use a fastpass to change their mind and give it away. (For those of you that are strict black or white rules followers remember that transferring your Fastpass to a family member is still transferring it. )

This is the same reason why I am opposed to "Zero Tolerance" rules in schools. ( AKA: Zero brain rules.)

 

[UNCFanatik]

Whaaa? TSM and Soarin run low on fastpasses because they are extremely popular, slow loading, low capacity attractions. No less, no more.

yes, I agree but late FP users added to that problem.

Wrong again. Printed operational documentation SPECIFICALLY stated that late fastpass was to be allowed. I have personally witnessed TSM CMs *loudly* announcing that the passes were valid any time up until park close.

That has now changed. Late fastpass is no longer allowed, per Disney policy. Deal in facts, please.

Can you point to that operational documentation you are referring to? Can you provide a link that we can verify?

As for transferable, believe what you want. Note that the wording itself has changed to specifically state NOT FOR SALE.

WRONG!!! It says both. non-transferable and NOT FOR SALE>

999 times out of a thousand, this was a training issue, or a situation where a ride had been broken down and was behind, and an attraction manager made a management call to temporarily suspend ate fastpass (which is within SOP).

How many times do we see where CMs on the phone give incorrect information? Or if you ask a CM in a park, and they steer you wrong? Occam's razor, man. If 99.9% of the time, something is allowed, it is silly to presume it to be the exception and the .01% to be the rule.

Why are you telling me this. I am not the one that said that most everything that came out of a CMs mouth was Disney Policy. Goofy4tink made that brillant statement.

 

[t_catt11]

yes, I agree but late FP users added to that problem.

How? A fastpass is a spot in a virtual line. If I use it late, all I have done is let people go in front of me.

Let's use little numbers to figure this out.

I get a fastpass at 9:00 AM (park opening) for a return time of 10:00-10:30 AM. Let's say my ride can service 100 people an hour.

You get into line at 11:00 AM. 200 people should have ridden by the time you get into line, right? This counts the fastpass holders.

Only I was a bad boy and used my fastpass at 10:45. This means that 25 people got to go one person sooner than they would have if I had used my pass on time. You still get to go at 11:00, I'm still one of those 200 people in front of you. It made no difference to you in the least what order we went in. We call this a zero sum event.

Can you point to that operational documentation you are referring to? Can you provide a link that we can verify?

Not at this time. We could Google it... it was reprinted, quoted, linked on the Dis dozens and dozens of times back in the days when late fastpass was allowed.

WRONG!!! It says both. non-transferable and NOT FOR SALE>

Be that as it may, you will never get a second glance for giving a pass away... unless a CM decides to applaud you for it. You will get in trouble for selling one. Look at the intent and apply some common sense.

Why are you telling me this. I am not the one that said that most everything that came out of a CMs mouth was Disney Policy. Goofy4tink made that brillant statement.

I was simply pointing out the factual fallacies of your arguments, much like the cabal of fastpass redistributing hoarders who apparently stop honest folks like yourself from riding TSM.

 

[goofy4tink]

You are right not hard to understand. Dont know why it is for you though. If people hoarded FPs just because they "might" use them later in the day or "just in case" or because they wanted to spread "pixie dust" then it would stop people from getting FPs at TSMM or Soaring because of the actions of these hoarders by taking some of the limited supply of FPs. It was an issue for guests that couldnt get FPs for TSMM and Soarin.



Again, and you must have comprehension issue in play again because the FP policy didnt change but enforcement of it did.

Why does Disney have non-nontransferable on the back of its FPs? That is pretty cut and dry that you arent to "transfer" them to another person and thus against Disney policy. Amazing the verbal gymnastics people will try to do when defending their abuse of Disney policy and systems



Really, come on. You cant really believe that. It has been reported that even pre FP enforcement days, that certain CMs at attractions wouldnt let guest use FPs past the window. In the 2012 Unofficial Guide, it even mentions this and it recommends to return later when another CM is working and they should let you use a late FP. SO..according to your logic and words, prior to March 7th and FP enforcement, if a CM said someone couldnt use a late FP then it was what Disney's policy was? What kind of flawed thought process are you using to come to that conclusion?





The are same in regard to the CRT ressies of the past in that a group of people were acting as a secondary distributor. But the difference is that the FPs are non-transferable and thus against Disney policy.

Nope, no comprehension issues here. I know what I'm talking about. No longer sparring with you.

yes, I agree but late FP users added to that problem.



Can you point to that operational documentation you are referring to? Can you provide a link that we can verify?



WRONG!!! It says both. non-transferable and NOT FOR SALE>







Why are you telling me this. I am not the one that said that most everything that came out of a CMs mouth was Disney Policy. Goofy4tink made that brillant statement.

Okay....so, I have to ask...exactly who do you choose to believe??? And I have a distinct feeling that you make choices as to whom to believe..probably the person telling you what you want to hear. If I go to WDW, and I have a question, I have to assume that the CM I speak to has the correct, official Disney answer. Sadly, there are many times that a CM may be incorrect. But, until proven otherwise, a guest will choose to believe what a CM says. After all....that CM is the official spokesperson for Disney. It is, in fact, what Disney wishes us to do....ask a CM to get the official, Disney answer.

There really seem to be a lot of board newcomers here that are really 'debating' stuff. And having an issue with everything others say...even though those 'others' pretty much have researched these same things. So, again, done sparring. Not a good use of my time. Off to deal with the whacky Transportation folks.

 

[mill4023]

For those of you that are strict black or white rules followers remember that transferring your Fastpass to a family member is still transferring it. )

Very good point.

UNCFanatik,
Have you ever gotten FP's for yourself and a friend or family member?
If so, you just VIOLATED Disney policy.

 

[t_catt11]

Can you point to that operational documentation you are referring to? Can you provide a link that we can verify?

Here we go. Not the text version I was so used to seeing, but a screenshot. Of course, you will go all tinfoil hat on me and claim conspiracy, or that I photoshopped this in 2.5 minutes, but here it is. It's the third bullet point on the list that addresses your issue.

Note that this information is no longer correct. This is the OLD operational policy, effective up until the March change. As an aside... why make a public announcement changing a policy, if said policy never existed, hmmm?

 

[Wadecool]

yes, I agree but late FP users added to that problem.

Do you have any documentation to back this statement up?

 

[mjp12831]

How? A fastpass is a spot in a virtual line. If I use it late, all I have done is let people go in front of me.

Let's use little numbers to figure this out.

I get a fastpass at 9:00 AM (park opening) for a return time of 10:00-10:30 AM. Let's say my ride can service 100 people an hour.

You get into line at 11:00 AM. 200 people should have ridden by the time you get into line, right? This counts the fastpass holders.

Only I was a bad boy and used my fastpass at 10:45. This means that 25 people got to go one person sooner than they would have if I had used my pass on time. You still get to go at 11:00, I'm still one of those 200 people in front of you. It made no difference to you in the least what order we went in. We call this a zero sum event.

I've been through this logical argument with this poster more times than I should have - don't bother using math and logic - it's pointless.

 

[mill4023]

do you have any documentation to back this statement up?

lol!

 

[UNCFanatik]

How? A fastpass is a spot in a virtual line. If I use it late, all I have done is let people go in front of me.

Let's use little numbers to figure this out.

I get a fastpass at 9:00 AM (park opening) for a return time of 10:00-10:30 AM. Let's say my ride can service 100 people an hour.

You get into line at 11:00 AM. 200 people should have ridden by the time you get into line, right? This counts the fastpass holders.

Only I was a bad boy and used my fastpass at 10:45. This means that 25 people got to go one person sooner than they would have if I had used my pass on time. You still get to go at 11:00, I'm still one of those 200 people in front of you. It made no difference to you in the least what order we went in. We call this a zero sum event

Adventures in missing the point. FP hoarders would pull FPs for use at their convenience for later in the day. Something they can not do now. These same people may not have pulled FPs if they had to use them in the printed window. Therefore, by pulling an FP you take FPs away from people that come in later in the day that would actually use them within the window. It is not a zero sum game when it comes to the amount of FPs available and how fast they are pulled.

Not at this time. We could Google it... it was reprinted, quoted, linked on the Dis dozens and dozens of times back in the days when late fastpass was allowed.

Thought so. So we will just chalk this up to another one of those vague and convenient justifications of a mysterious CM told me so. Amazing how many late FP users were told by CMs but long time park veterans never had CMs tell them about it. Convenient....

Be that as it may, you will never get a second glance for giving a pass away... unless a CM decides to applaud you for it. You will get in trouble for selling one. Look at the intent and apply some common sense.

The intent is for Disney to be the sole distribution point of FPs and not at the whim at guests deciding who should get one.

I was simply pointing out the factual fallacies of your arguments, much like the cabal of fastpass redistributing hoarders who apparently stop honest folks like yourself from riding TSM.

As I point out your fallacies of saying things are not on a ticket but actually are. And I am waiting for you to provide actual support for your position.

 

[t_catt11]

I've been through this logical argument with this poster more times than I should have - don't bother using math and logic - it's pointless.

Oh, I've used it before, too... with precious little success.

The issue isn't the logic (which is solid, and part of how fastpass ratios are developed). It's the perception of "I thought I was going to be rider #199, but that jerk used his fastpass late and cut in front of me, making me #200!" When in reality, you were #200 the entire time.

 

[Glennie5]

You are right not hard to understand. Dont know why it is for you though. If people hoarded FPs just because they "might" use them later in the day or "just in case" or because they wanted to spread "pixie dust" then it would stop people from getting FPs at TSMM or Soaring because of the actions of these hoarders by taking some of the limited supply of FPs. It was an issue for guests that couldnt get FPs for TSMM and Soarin.

So let me get this straight you are upset because you think people are hoarding fastpasses but when these people you think are hoarding the fastpasses decide to give them to someone who didn't get a fastpass you are upset by that too?

 

[t_catt11]

...
Thought so. So we will just chalk this up to another one of those vague and convenient justifications of a mysterious CM told me so. Amazing how many late FP users were told by CMs but long time park veterans never had CMs tell them about it. Convenient....

...

As I point out your fallacies of saying things are not on a ticket but actually are. And I am waiting for you to provide actual support for your position.

Sorry, I made another post already with said document - please see #110 in this thread, four up from yours. I know that you'll ignore it, but it's there.

Also, do note that I pointed out the TSM CMs *loudly* telling the crowd that the passes were good all day long. I've been personally told the same at Kali River Rapids, Everest, Kilimanjaro Safari, Space Mountain, Soarin... an have asked (an had confirmation) on other rides, as well (this used to be THE big hot button issue on the Dis). Also, I consider myself to be a WDW vet.

So let me get this straight you are upset because you think people are hoarding fastpasses but when these people you think are hoarding the fastpasses decide to give them to someone who didn't get a fastpass you are upset by that too?

Psh, obviously!

 

[Wadecool]

Thought so. So we will just chalk this up to another one of those vague and convenient justifications of a mysterious CM told me so. Amazing how many late FP users were told by CMs but long time park veterans never had CMs tell them about it. Convenient....

As I point out your fallacies of saying things are not on a ticket but actually are. And I am waiting for you to provide actual support for your position.

Silly rabbit.

You might want to take a gander at post #110 and reassess your position.

 

[SnowWhite607]

You have discoverd my motive - I went to the park specifically to obtain as may FP as I could so that you weren't able to get as many.

I can only hope to one day be as rightous as you are, but until that day I will continue to be a sinner and give away FP that I won't use because my daughter got a migrane and needed to go back to the resort. To me that is the essence of what WDW is about and what makes it special.

 

[vicki_c]

Thought so. So we will just chalk this up to another one of those vague and convenient justifications of a mysterious CM told me so. Amazing how many late FP users were told by CMs but long time park veterans never had CMs tell them about it. Convenient....

Can you not see the evidence you requested posted 10 minutes before your comment above? That's been posted here on the boards many times, just because you didn't see it, there's no need to make such snide and rude comments.

 

[chuckml]

Here we go. Not the text version I was so used to seeing, but a screenshot. Of course, you will go all tinfoil hat on me and claim conspiracy, or that I photoshopped this in 2.5 minutes, but here it is. It's the third bullet point on the list that addresses your issue.

Note that this information is no longer correct. This is the OLD operational policy, effective up until the March change. As an aside... why make a public announcement changing a policy, if said policy never existed, hmmm?

What say ye now, Officer FP--AKA UNC Fanatik?

 

[UNCFanatik]

Oh, I've used it before, too... with precious little success.

The issue isn't the logic (which is solid, and part of how fastpass ratios are developed). It's the perception of "I thought I was going to be rider #199, but that jerk used his fastpass late and cut in front of me, making me #200!" When in reality, you were #200 the entire time.

Did you see me arguing the logic about FPs ratio or how they were developed? Nope. Nice try though. Only made the point of how the previous FP policy led to hoarding of FPs and caused the FP supply to run out quicker than it would have if people had to use FPs in their return window.

And nice chart but where is the context with it? What date was this issued? Who issued it? Who was it issued to? How long was this chart even used? Was it well published? still need context to support conclusions.

No where do i see where it encourages CMs to tell people to use late FPs only to take late FPs.

Was it part of a CMs training? If so, why were some CMs still telling people prior to March 7th that they couldnt use late FPs?