See it can be done...I found Ei$ner's replacement

[HB2K]

Crusader-

I was unaware of the ABC news...and that's a good sign. But as I said with Scoop, it's only that...as sign. It's not time to declare the problem solved. It will be interesting to watch to see if this continues.

As for retail, I don't know as I agree with you 100%. The stores could co-exists with the discount retailers....not everyone wants the cheapest product they can find. If the stores were more focused on niche marketing (arts, adult wear, exclusive children's products) and not on competing with the Walmarts & Targets of the world product for product, then the stores could thrive instead of a full out liquidation.

As for the movies, do you not think that putting out a glut of cheap movies such as RTN, JB2, etc waters down the brand name and hampers the "good stuff" from doing better at the box office? Is it just people not liking Disney's films, or is it a larger issue. Me personally I think it's a larger issue...Disney used to be able to produce hit after hit in the same manner that Pixar is today....why did that change? Surely Pixar doesn't hire a psychic to determine what the public wants to see before making a movie...and if they do, why doesn't Disney? Is it all blind luck?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Anyway scoop...as much as you want me and everyone else who doesn't see the world as you do gone...I don't plan on going anywhere.

HB - I think it was pretty clear from Scoop's post that it is he who has made a change, rather than him wishing the "element" would go away.

I'm with you Scoopster. I don't have too much desire to dabble in many of the R&N Board debates any longer. They've become stale and predictable............and ultimately lead nowhere. However, don't let that dissuade you from sharing that which this board is most about..............rumors and news.

Anywho............maybe it is because I have a trip coming up in a couple of weeks, or maybe it is because the R&N board doesn't draw me as it used to, but I've gotten back to spending more time on some of the other boards. I like seeing other people excitement for Disney and have a lot of fun helping others. Kind of refreshing. Most out on the other boards aren't blind...........but they are not so focused on the negative.

As for your topic HB, I agree that Disney shold be more customer focused the way Costco is trying to be. I know you weren't trying to say Disney should be Costco..................it should just have customers and service at the top of the list of priorities as opposed to this quarter's earnings.

 

[crusader]

Actually we may not be as far apart on this as you think. I don't view ABC's progress as the final solution either. I do look at television as extremely competitive and actually feel two of the fall lineup additions - Karen Cisco and Hope and Faith are welcome improvements to last season. I happened to catch an episode of the Practice with James Spader and Sharon Stone which was outstanding!

Too bad ABC couldn't get their hands on that Charlie Sheen sitcom - Excellent comedy!

The network has the potential to excel. It really is timing in my opinion. Right now they are performing better but considering where they were, this ain't no quantum leap.

Stay tuned.

The niche retailing does have some merit but high end products in a retail slump are a difficult sell. I don't recall if they are attempting to sell off the remainder of their stores or retain a portion but I do know the one in my area is continuing to do well and was not slated to close.

The licensing issue hurt their ability to competitively offer the same products as the chain retailers. That doesn't mean they couldn't revamp the operation. WDW has some exceptional merchandise I'd love to obtain elsewhere.

Also in our area two local malls are failing as a whole. This is the direct result of recent commercial development projects designed to bring specialty shops directly into towns, in a strip mall setting.
The success has everything to do with convenience shopping which pulls consumers away from indoor malls.

As for the movies, do you not think that putting out a glut of cheap movies such as RTN, JB2, etc waters down the brand name and hampers the "good stuff" from doing better at the box office?

No - despite the criticism the company has received in this regard.
There is a recent article which touches on this issue and supports many of the statements I've read here. Personally, I don't believe it is simply a matter of the story. http://www.investorguide.com/cgi-bin/browse1.cgi?tick=DIS&site=http://quote.yahoo.com/q?s=DIS&d=v1 Scroll down and read the recent article titled: "Disney's Dwindling Draw".

This season, sales of Barbie Swan Lake on DVD are going to be topping the charts for the 5yr old. If you can answer the question: WHY?? Then you may have a bright future in retail forcasting. To me it has to do with CGI Barbie on film - and the story only has to deliver on the "fairly ok" scale. Disney can also create a number of these direct to video features without harming the theatrical releases because the consumer doesn't view the markets on the same caliber.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***", or maybe it is because the R&N board doesn't draw me as it used to, but I've gotten back to spending more time on some of the other boards. I like seeing other people excitement for Disney and have a lot of fun helping others. Kind of refreshing. "***

So that's why I've spotted you over on the DVC board recently. Heading home in a couple weeks ? When & where ? We'll be at VWL the first week of Dec.

I think a lot of the regular posters on the board have taken a break from it for awhile. Just checked out the page one threads.... not much new to going on.

As for the OP....... If I'm not mistaken, the CEO's comments are in reference to a bad last quarter. Let's just wait and see if he changes his tune if the next couple quarters are also bad. Maybe when there is more "**** then sugar" he won't talk with such bravado.

 

[raidermatt]

Media Week

For the week of 11/3, ABC was 3rd in viewers, tied for third in 18-49.

Did Sweeps start on 10/27 or 11/3?

Anywho, its important to note that ABC also did not finish last in the November Sweeps last year. However, with no MNF, they dropped in Feb and May.

While I'm sure there are specific cases where individual Disney Stores are succeeding, or where ones that stuggled did so because of a Mall becoming less popular, that has had little to do with the Disney Stores' overall troubles.

To me it has to do with CGI Barbie on film - and the story only has to deliver on the "fairly ok" scale. Disney can also create a number of these direct to video features without harming the theatrical releases because the consumer doesn't view the markets on the same caliber.

The "direct to video" quality stuff HB2K referred to WERE theatrical releases. All the consumer really knows is that they are Disney films being released at the theater. As has been pointed out so many times around here, few are savvy enough to know that Disney intends them for different markets. They are priced the same, are released in the same outlets, and carry the same Walt Disney Pictures banner.

It seems that most people who saw Atlantis and Treasure Planet were baffled that Atlantis did so much better at the box office than Treasure Planet. What happened was the public saw Disney's attempt at an animated adventure film and thought it stunk, and weren't about to try the next one.

The Little Mermaid followed a string of disappointing efforts. While it did well, it hardly "blew-up" at the box office. Yet it created postive momentum for the next film Aladdin. Likewise, Pocahontas has proven to be a far less liked film than Mermaid, but because it followed Aladdin and The Lion King, it had momentum.

All of that is not to say that CGI means nothing in the equation. It probably does right now. But as more get into the CGI racket, there will need to be differentiation, and that will occur through the other elements of the films, like story. Further, there is clearly a difference between the success (and franchise appeal) of Monsters and Jimmy Neutron, and since both are CGI, there must be something else the public cares about.

On the issue of the CEO... of course he is not personally responsible for every issue that arises, and even with the perfect CEO, there will be less than perfect people in the organization. However, he is still responsible for providing direction, and if he is not providing the right direction, things are more likely to go wrong than they otherwise would.

Mr. Bear, you should not be confused for there exists an element within the Disney internet community that will always find a reason to complain no matter how many attractions are added, cuts reversed, stock prices increased, or any other indication of renewed success.

C'mon now Scoop-man, I could reverse most of your statements 180 degrees and they would be just as true. What's the point?

How does contributing to the hyperbole foster the kind of discussion you desire? All its doing is making it worse. Its no different than accusations of rose-colored glasses in response to an "Isn't M:S great" post.

I know where you are coming from, as I sometimes get frustrated as well, with BOTH ends of the spectrum. But again, what's the point in adding to it?

 

[crusader]

Matt'

ABC moving up is not because of sweeps week. FOX has held the last place standings for much longer than that due to a rough season.

You make it sound as if Disney had a problem retailing due solely to its' management. Then how do you explain WB's fate? Here is an example of two competitors offering brand merchandise tied predominantly to animation who struggled miserably when the economy tanked.

What are you saying? Disney supersaturated and cheapened its' merchandise (which is true to a certain degree) but WB didn't? The problem I see with your theory is that the degradation of quality within the DisneyStores did not occur over a prelonged period of time and did not detract many consumers from buying Disney products. They just stoped paying the mall prices for the toys.

Don't kid yourself into thinking the popularity of a mall is not diminishing in suburbia. It is. Department Stores are the first casualties. Retail outfits fall right behind them. We live in an instant world and purchase many products based on convenience. People rarely make the effort to drive the distance anymore.

The "direct to video" quality stuff HB2K referred to WERE theatrical releases.

I don't view the theatrical release of JB2 as meant to succeed at the box office in the same manner as the Lion King or Aladdin. I view it as a promotional campaign used to launch the video. Universal did the same thing with the rerelease of Scarface. It was used simply as a publicity tool.

This practice does not cheapen the brand. Consumers view Disney as the leader with good reason. They have sustained longevity and proven quality. Consumers are also much more price conscience and purchase savvy than you may think. They carefully consider all factors and comparative shop especially when it comes to buying merchandise for their children.

 

[HB2K]

Crusader-

As for ABC I can definitly agree with this statement:

Stay tuned.

That's my feelings exactly. Let's see if this is the start of a trend or just a minor blip on the radar.

I don't view the theatrical release of JB2 as meant to succeed at the box office in the same manner as the Lion King or Aladdin. I view it as a promotional campaign used to launch the video

The problem with this theory is that the movies aren't marketed the way you claim....they're sold in the same movie theaters as the larger "feature, FEATURE" animated films...at the same cost...and Disney doesn't announce a DVD release date when marketing these movies...it's a push to see Disney's latest film in the theaters...and the more people see these, the less likely they are to run out to Disney's "event" films based soley on the brand name...whereas after the Lion Kings, etc they might have run to the theaters based on the film having the Disney name.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop! You brought me out of ‘lurk’ mode. How dare you!! And I was just getting comfortable doing a “read-only” thing!

Mr. Bear, you should not be confused for there exists an element within the Disney internet community that will always find a reason to complain no matter how many attractions are added, cuts reversed, stock prices increased, or any other indication of renewed success.

WOW!! What a cute way to “SLAM” HB2K with your usual dismissive, pedantic, patronizing, disingenuous style, but without really naming a name! Congratulations! You used to be much more direct!

And as usual you missed the point!! (just read on. I will explain… conversationally)

If this elements complaint du jour is addressed by Disney, the same element will simply find a new focus of its ire.

You still don’t get it, do you!? The ‘complaint du jour’ doesn’t matter. The philosophy behind the fix (or cause) does. And this is what HB2K was trying to say in the original post. Surely you didn’t skip that post, did you? And even you should be able to tell he was talking philosophically.

It is a process that I've repeatedly seen occur since being on these boards circa 1999. Do some problems, even serious ones, still exist? Sure. No doubt.

You still don’t get it, do you!? There are not problemS. There is only one problem. The Disney PHILOSOPHY is no longer alive!! It is the same problem that has plagued this company for the past eighteen years!

But, Disney has begun to address some of the more prevalent problems of late. However, the element at issue is prepared for this. They have canned phrases like "band-aid" or "wait 'til next year" or a variety of other ways to keep anything negative at the forefront.

You still don’t get it, do you!? There can be no other answer to the ‘fixes’ because the root problem has never been addressed! You remember what that one singular problem is, don’t you? Yeah! That’s right! PHILOSOPHY!!!

One reason that I've reduced my posting is because this element takes that joy out of discussing Disney much more quickly than even Eisner ever could. It simply becomes an exercise in what new to complain about today.

You still don’t get it, do you!? These exercises ‘in what new to complain about today’ are really just symptoms of that greater ‘single’ problem. Remember, the PHILOSOPHY!!

Granted, there are some folks such as Mr. Jewell who has been very consistent in his frustration rather than just being an ad hoc complainer. And, I commend that for it can well be a important and helpful tool. He does not fall within what I'm terming "the element".

However, he and a few others are the exception to the general approach of complaining at minutae in many cases.

And everyone else who ‘dares’ to complain about something that the great Scoop does not deem a problem is “the element”? That’s got to be the widest brush I’ve ever seen!!

For every list of 4 or 5 things Mr. WTG can post in this thread, I can name twice the improvements, enhancements, etc. But, making lists has long since ceased to be constructive around here.

You still don’t get it, do you!? Lists have never worked. Why? Because lists ignore the philosophy. And we all know that that is the underlying, single problem with Disney today.

So, what are we left with?

A certain, loud-mouthed element that has a bizarre obsession with venting every frustration they might have (while still sticking around the party) to the point that the size of chicken fingers obtains some level of importance in whether Disney continues to be a magical place.

You still don’t get it, do you!? That chicken finger is indicative of the philosophy. I can’t make it any simpler for you. If you don’t see it by now, maybe you never will.

Standing on the street corner screaming that hell is near must sometimes certainly became a tired existence.

Almost as tiresome as trying to make you understand the Disney philosophy and how its absence is destroying the company.

Sorry Scoop. Nothing personal, but your coy post brought out some feelings that perhaps that wide brush might have included me if I had been posting lately. And I really did think you missed the point.


One little note to Mr. Bear.

I believe Alfredo's is privately operated by contract with Disney, so the decision to do away with the singer would have been theirs and not Disneys.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[crusader]

The problem with this theory is that the movies aren't marketed the way you claim....they're sold in the same movie theaters as the larger "feature, FEATURE" animated films...at the same cost...and Disney doesn't announce a DVD release date when marketing these movies...it's a push to see Disney's latest film in the theaters...and the more people see these, the less likely they are to run out to Disney's "event" films based soley on the brand name...whereas after the Lion Kings, etc they might have run to the theaters based on the film having the Disney name.

I quoted this because it really brings several issues to the forefront...............and is worth noting.

Movies have been marketed in the manner I described. It does not matter if the in-home version had a timed delay. I would need to research JB2's release to gain more insight. It all depends on the intent. I am not as convinced as you that Disney had intended to cover its' production costs within the theatres for these second tier type films.

The branding issue is an interesting concept here. I am not in agreement with the argument that a quick production series type release hurts the brand. I don't think the money is at the box office, though and these are best suited direct to video. An adult doesn't want to waste two hours sitting in a theatre with Jr. watching something which is only a slight grade above the cartoon network. (but they will buy it for 10 bucks - just like they'll buy CGI Barbie on DVD or Barney for that matter.)

Disney can successfully tap into this market without affecting their motion picture enterprise. The consumer does know the difference and will choose accordingly.

Oh and this one is a personal side note to Baron:

Philosophy lives my friend! You just can't seem to accept that.

 

[DancingBear]

Originally posted by HB2K
As for the movies, do you not think that putting out a glut of cheap movies such as RTN, JB2, etc waters down the brand name and hampers the "good stuff" from doing better at the box office? Is it just people not liking Disney's films, or is it a larger issue. Me personally I think it's a larger issue...Disney used to be able to produce hit after hit in the same manner that Pixar is today....why did that change? Surely Pixar doesn't hire a psychic to determine what the public wants to see before making a movie...and if they do, why doesn't Disney? Is it all blind luck?

In the 1960s, Walt Disney produced Jungle Book, Mary Poppins and 101 Dalmations. He also produced The Gnome-Mobile, FreewayPhobia#1, Goofy's Freeway Trouble, and Son of Flubber.

 

[DisneyKidds]

So that's why I've spotted you over on the DVC board recently. Heading home in a couple weeks ? When & where ? We'll be at VWL the first week of Dec.

Believe it or not Vike, I spent over a year on the DIS, navigating the other boards and using the DVC board to assist in my decision making process, before I even discovered the R&N Board and it's colorful set of characters . I have noticed lately we seem to be posting in a lot of the same places.

Yep, we are headed home the day after Thanksgiving, until the 6th of Dec. We are stayig at the absolute best place to stay during the holidays................the VWL! Well, 6 nights there before we head over to the Poly for a change of scenery. What are you doing for Monday Night Football on the 1st of Dec? This will be the second year I get to watch my J-E-T-S, Jets, Jets, Jets on Monday night at WDW. Last year I watched in the Territory Lounge (damn your Raiders Matt........they beat the Jets then and in the playoffs. Not much satisfaction in beating them this year as it likely didn't mean much). Perhaps a meet is in order? There are a plethora of places to watch the game. If not that, let me know what your schedule looks like and maybe we can arrange to cross paths somewhere else.

And as usual you missed the point!!

Hi, Baron . You know what....................I don't think Scoop misses the point you so eloquently (as usual ) point out. I get the Philosophy thing, Scoop gets the Phhilosophy thing............by now everybody gets the Philosophy thing. Unfortunately it seems there is one point that some don't get......................and that is that the Philosophy of which you speak just ain't coming back. Bet your bippy it would be best if it did, but the World will survive if it doesn't. Maybe that is acceptable to some, to others it may not be. But what does it leave us to talk about? Not much sense in rehashing the Philosophy arguments that most don't disagree with. No, we are left to talk about what WDW is today, what they are doing today, how they are dealing with symptoms today (because THE problem ain't going anywhere).......and what all that means to WDW today, tomorrow, and in the future. On that subject there are likely those of us who are just way too far apart. Some can still find Magic, enjoyment, and incredible value (both in terms of dollars and time) in what the current situation provides............other's can't. Beating each other up over that gap just doesn't seem to accomplish much. It isn't wrong that there are those who will never be happy until the Philosophy comes back, who will never be able to see the positives as any type of elixir at all, who will always find fault with anything done out of motivation that comes from anything other than the one, true Philosophy...................but that is never going to happen, and focusing on what to some will be an ever-present negative just doesn't seem to get us anywhere. Perhaps it is time to stop talking about the Philosophy, to stop judging everything against the Philosophy, and start talking about just what it REALLY means to the company and the future that the Philosophy is a thing of the past. Given my goals (when it comes to Disney) and what I look for from the Walt Disney Company I don't think it means as much as you or others. Sure, Disney would be 1,000 times better with the Philosophy, but even without they will still survive, thrive, and provide my family with entertainment and experiences that satisfy my goals. I'm truely sad for those that can't say the same........................but given that we all hang (or now lurk) around these boards and make the pilgrimage at least once a year, deep in your heart you know there are a lot of people who have my view .

 

[raidermatt]

This board has never been on the leading edge of true rumor posting. Its always been more of a place for educated discussion than simply "I heard this on a bus".

Most of the rumors are found on other sites, and the discussion starts here when somebody links to it. (Yes, there have been a few exceptions.)

We tend to look for what the rumors might actually mean, as opposed to saying "yipee" and picking up the phone to make a ressie for 2006 so we can ride Fire Mountain in MK.

Sure, there are those who do not want any part of such discussion, and there is nothing wrong with that. Its simply a matter of deciding what interests you.

This board has never been a prominent source for news and information. There's a half-dozen other sites that are better at that than this board ever was. It was, however, and sometimes still is, a prominent place for discussion.

Different strokes...

Crusader-

ABC moving up is not because of sweeps week. FOX has held the last place standings for much longer than that due to a rough season.

Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view I guess), when it comes to the business of network TV, the sweeps periods are all that really matters. That's how ad rates are set.

Disney has not deteriorated as much as the competition this year, but that's simply not good enough, considering where they have been for the last few years.

Of course I'll stay tuned, as who knows what the future will hold, but ABC's progress has been less than what could be reasonably expected, considering the amount of time that has gone by since the Millionaire fiasco. Further, it never should have come to this in the first place.

You make it sound as if Disney had a problem retailing due solely to its' management. Then how do you explain WB's fate? Here is an example of two competitors offering brand merchandise tied predominantly to animation who struggled miserably when the economy tanked.

Honestly, I don't know as much about WB's problems, other than they failed. Regardless, the failure of another retailer does not give Disney a free pass to do the same. Disney's stores were struggling long before the economy tanked, its just that the economy made it worse. That's what happens in tough times... survival of the fittest.

Perhaps WB was managed poorly as well. Certainly Disney has not cornered the market on making mistakes.

I've stated many times that there have been a variety of factors that have contributed to Disney's issues, both in the parks and in retail. Some of those, like the economy, are out of their control.

Some, like poor decision-making, are within their control. That includes anticipating, or at least reacting to, changes in the marketplace.

Really, I'm not of the opinion that Disney as a whole is run all that much worse than a lot of other companies. I think their decision-making has been less than average, but they benefit from having one of the top few brand names in the world.

However, Disney being less than average, or even average, is not what brought us here. It didn't hook millions of fans, and its not what created a demand for websites like this one.

It all depends on what type of expectations we have. Sure, Disney can get by, and in good times even do pretty well, by capitalizing on all it has created in the past, and adding to it at an average level, just like everybody else.

I just think they have the opportunity and resources to do so much more than that, if only they had the right direction.

get the Philosophy thing, Scoop gets the Phhilosophy thing............by now everybody gets the Philosophy thing. Unfortunately it seems there is one point that some don't get......................and that is that the Philosophy of which you speak just ain't coming back. Bet your bippy it would be best if it did, but the World will survive if it doesn't. Maybe that is acceptable to some, to others it may not be. But what does it leave us to talk about? Not much sense in rehashing the Philosophy arguments that most don't disagree with.

Couple of things on this, DK.

1- Its clear to me that while some do get the philosophy thing to varying degrees, many really do not. With Scoop, at times it sounds like he does, and at other times, it sounds like he doesn't. An example is the "chicken finger" thing (or MHB, motorized vacuums, etc). If you get the philosophy thing, you can't just dismiss that stuff as minutae.

As Baron points out, they are symptoms of the philosophy problem. You can take the position that they are symptoms you are willing to accept, as you apparently have, but everybody else can't be expected to do the same.

2- I'm not sure why you think the philosophy can not come back. Nothing ever becomes exactly as it was before of course. But certainly it is within the realm of reason that a management team could be found that would have a vastly superior philosophy to the Eisner-led crew we currently have, isn't it?

3- As I said to crusader above, its not really about the "survival" of the company. Its about a continuation of excellence. Some maybe satisfied with Disney merely remaining in existence, and that's fine. It is after all, just a company. But some want more, and that's fine too. Very similar to us football fans. Some view 8-8 as "better than it could have been", and others view is as "not as good as it could have been". Neither is wrong, just different viewpoints.

 

[HB2K]

Whether you read this or not, I honestly don't care. But I would for one just like to say take your goodbye rant to it's own topic. Crusader and I (along with others) were having a discussion which I think was moving along quite well...heck I even admitted that the recent moves have at least given me a little hope for the near term future....and then you decide to crash it. I took personal offense at your post, and I'm even more disgusted with it now that you claim not to have even read what I was writing in the first place (which I don't believe...that rant was a little too personal).

Whether you had me on ignore or not it's kind of weird that you choose to try to paint some opinions, some of which you claim not to even read, with a brush...yet get all in a tizzy when others do the same thing. Hey at least I read other's posts. I may disagree, I may voice my disagreement, and heck I may totally blow off their opinion if need be...but before I critique anyone I at least read their stuff.

It's kind of like complaining who the president is but not bothering to vote.

So go on ignoring...but please either keep your un-informed attacks to yourself or keep your fingers still when others do the same....I'm not going to ignore you...but I'm not going to bother with the shell you've become. You seem to have gotten a little high on your horse as of late and take offense when someone DARES question your information (see the rumored new cruise ship's name for example)...or your direction for ANY topics discussed.

Now back to the original topic.

It's been pointed out that not every Disney movie is a full featured classic, and to that I agree. But I would also agree with Matt's example of Little Mermaid....How much money would that film have made if it came out AFTER Aladdin & Lion King? It was hurt by Disney's past offerings....as it seems Treasure Planet was. I mean from all accounts here it was a great film (I haven't seen it), but it got lost in the crowd....which is something that should not have happened with a Disney Featured Release if Disney's brand was still as strong as ever...

 

[raidermatt]

crusader, I wanted to touch on one of the other points in our last exchange.

Movies have been marketed in the manner I described. It does not matter if the in-home version had a timed delay. I would need to research JB2's release to gain more insight. It all depends on the intent. I am not as convinced as you that Disney had intended to cover its' production costs within the theatres for these second tier type films.

But you see, intent has NOTHING to do with the public's perception. They see what is put forth, and what is put forth is an animated filme that says Walt Disney Pictures, has the same castle logo up front, is in the same theaters, has the same admission price, etc, etc, etc.

Perhaps the marketing push is not as strong, but that just means it reaches less people. Those it does reach get the same message.

I'm not arguing that Disney expects to make $100 million at the box office with this stuff. Of course they don't. They're just looking for a different outlet to increase their revenue for the product. Nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. Its just that in this case, it puts in into the same outlet and in the same manner as a different type of product they make.

I honestly think even releasing them on home video, at least under the same banner, is probably not the best long-term idea. But I think its much more of a problem at theaters, where the public expects a little more than when buying something they know didn't even play in theaters.

I don't think the money is at the box office, though and these are best suited direct to video.

Sounds like we are in agreement on this?

The relatively small amount of extra profit made off of these at the theater is not worth the damage done to the brand.

Disney can successfully tap into this market without affecting their motion picture enterprise. The consumer does know the difference and will choose accordingly.

Assuming you mean direct to video, and not as theatrical releases, then, yes I agree.

 

[hopemax]

Because its very, very obvious that this forum's activity has dramatically decreased.

Your right. It has. You say the commentators have driven off the sources? Well, where are the commentators? Where is the group of so-called posters who apparently delight in listing a litany of minute problems? If that's where their fun comes from, why stop just because a few people have left? They'd all still be here, shouldn't they be lapping up the latest Al's column with their buddies if nothing else? None of the old regulars are posting regularly, NONE of them. Both sides have disappeared. You lament the loss of Safari Steve, I lament the loss of Another Voice. Was it the same minutae criticization that drove him away?

And I really don't understand this reaction to the lists. I seem to remember it was you, who requested that people do more than just say Disney was losing it's magic, you wanted lists of exactly why and where people thought it was happening. Now, making a list is a bad thing.

But, the saddest thing of all to me is that the element that continues to criticize every small "bad" thing (while dismissing nearly every small "good" thing as indicative of nothing

This is the second time you've made a comment of this type. The problem is that it assumes that every good thing is universally thought of as a good thing, so dismissing the good thing is unjustified. Take M: S and E:E, I assume these are on the list of your good things? But one of my big personal issues with Disney is what I perceive as a movement from purely a "choice not to ride" to a "forced not to ride." I'm talking about the height and physical requirements. I think the requirements detract from the Magic because 1. The bad feelings when someone finds out they can't ride 2. Bad choices get made so that they won't miss out on the fun. Bad choices like riding when you know you do have a back problem (how many times has someone tried to sue Disney for injury when they should have just stayed off the ride?) So knowing that *this* is a big issue for me, why are the addition of M:S and E:E good things? Do they address my concern in a good way? Or should I ignore my personal concern and go with the flow because people who can ride thinks it's cool?

The other thing is that as much as we do lists, I don't think they can be used to keep score. Ultimately, our reactions to the "state of the Magic" are emotional, and the emotional side of our brains don't weight good and bad equally. One important, unaddressed concern can outweigh a dozen minor, addressed concerns. And for me there are still a lot of important unaddressed concerns.

Personally, I don't post as much, because I have felt, like Landbaron that if anyone "‘dares’ to complain about something that the great Scoop does not deem a problem is “the element”?." The great Scoop doesn't refer to just you, there are others for whom I could swap in a name. After I got my computer back from the move, and I had an opportunity to read your report on DL, my first reaction was anger. I was angry because everytime I would bring up the state of DL as the backstory of why I felt the Magic was in the state it was in, it was dismissed. You couldn't see DL's problems, you couldn't comprehend the problems on the scale that was described, so therefore it must be hyperbole.

Seeing your post, crystalized something for me. Having something to substantiate your position in this forum, doesn't matter. If a person can't physically see the damage, it can't have occured. There is no, "since I wasn't visiting then, or I haven't visited there, I will consider that what you're saying is true." And crusader, early in this thread, basically spelled out that point too.

Now, I see you're complaining about the Costco quote. And since I'm the one who brought it up in the other forum, I'll state here why I did. How many times have we been told that Disney must operate in the manner it does, like opening Adventureland an hour later, because Disney has a fiduciary responsibility to it's shareholders? And how many times have we been asked to provide the names of sucessful companies who are placing shareholders behind customers and employees? So when someone does that, now THAT is inappropriate because the article doesn't say DISNEY anywhere, it's not an entertainment company? The requirements weren't that strict when the question was raised. This is the same type of twisting and dismissing that you accuse other's of doing.

The Costco quote could have been a springboard to talk about the benefits Costco has experienced and how they could help Disney. I know, there are no similarities, different industries. Certainly, the fact that Costco's employee turnover rate is only 23% compared to it's competitor's 45% has no business being part of the discussion. After all, it's not like if Disney were able to lower it's employee turnover rate that it would help the Magic? It's not like it would result in lower training expenses, greater familiarity with the machinery which would help deter serious mechanical failures, more familiarity with the park which would translate into better guest service. But no, Costco has nothing in common with Disney so bringing Costco up is ludicrious.

This is why I don't post as much, there is no interest in even knowing the thought process behind other people's postings.

 

[raidermatt]

I guess there are those that enjoy dramatic exits...

Scoop, I have no desire to see you "ride off into the Sunset", but on the other hand, if that's what you feel you need to do, so be it.

Yes, I get the irony in the statement that a "Rumors" board was never popular for breaking rumors, but its not like I was the first to point that out. You disagree, and that's fine, but I'm still pretty confident in my point. I have always been able to go to any of several other sites and find more actual rumors being posted. Of course with that comes more "I heard this from the guy who catches the gators in the Disney waterways", but that's to be expected.

On the other hand, this has always been the one place were folks could have a reasonable discussion about the bigger issues without being drown in pixie dust. Sprinkled, but not drown.

You say the Costco article was a reason to vent, and you also said you had HB2K on ignore. What's even more hard for me to figure out is that I don't see anyone venting anyway. HB2K was pretty clear that he was pointing out an example of a CEO who was not just following what some financial analysts want him to do.

You can disagree of course, but there was no venting.

As for why Steve doesn't post on the R&N board, there's no need to guess. He told us he didn't like the negative parts of the discussion, and that's his perogative. He wants to pass on info without having the info critiqued for deeper meanings, or pounced on by what he perceives as negative people. Again, his perogative, and I respect that, as I respect your decision to do the same, if that's your decision.

Again, no right or wrong, just different strokes...

 

[raidermatt]

Made my last post before I saw yours, Hope. Very good points.

 

[HB2K]

Scoop (and anyone else reading)-

I had a big long response posted...and I apologize for removing it...but Hope really crystalized my thoughts quite nicely.

One thing I will add...

Does anyone else think it's incredibly tacky (and probably a violation of this site's terms & conditions) to openly solicit posters to abandon this forum for another?

 

[crusader]

However, Disney being less than average, or even average, is not what brought us here. It didn't hook millions of fans, and its not what created a demand for websites like this one.

Disney the brand should not be used as the sole measurement to define Disney the Company. It is simply a representation provided through many outlets within the marketplace. One cheap plastic tinkerbell trinket does not dismiss the masterful works of art continually being designed within this empire.

I do not share your view that Disney is less than average. Mission Space is not an example of that. Neither is Brother Bear or Pirates of the Caribbean or the parks in Orlando. Disney reigns supreme because it continues to demonstrate the ability to satisfy the demands of its' customers through the extremely profitable sale of happiness and magical memories which are phenomenal enterprises.

The retail segment may sell everything from exceptional works of art to molded sugarcane. Why is it so difficult to accept the idea that these can all be marketed to the public without cheapening the quality of the entertainment?

It's called memorabilia and it is in high demand in our society.

What a wonderful world!!!

 

[HB2K]

Since we're apparently done with our goodbyes it looks like Crusader is ready to discuss again...and I'm all for it as well

Crusader...I understand what you're saying...that not EVERYTHING the company is producing is cheap or junk...and I agree there are some signs of quality and in general agree with your list.

But what about the areas you don't mention. Disneyland - Anahiem for one. How does the condition of that park inspire it's local guests to put their trust in the fact that WDW is in better shape? How does joe schmoe who saw the trailer for Disney's Jungle Book 2 and decided to go to the theaters only to be disappointed see a trailer for Brother Bear and make the destinction that Brother Bear is Disney's "Good Stuff"?

It's the ying to your yang. There are good products coming out of the company, but there are just as many bad ones as well...and all of that dilutes the brand name (which is synonomus with the Disney company itself)...which in turn causes people to miss out on some of the "good" products put out there (i.e. Treasure Planet).