Security Threat?

[Hazzard101]

If I remember correctly, they can use the fingerprints. They store the fingerprint in software that really isn’t a fingerprint. If they need to construct the finger print and then search for an identification, they can do that within the ticket life plus thirty days. They might have to get approval from a judge?

If this is true than they lied to the public in the article I read. I am not trying to argue I am really telling what I read. If that is the truth I am a bit unnerved that they have this ability.

 

[DVCPAT]

If this is true than they lied to the public in the article I read. I am not trying to argue I am really telling what I read. If that is the truth I am a bit unnerved that they have this ability.

Technically, Disney isn’t lying. They don’t have your finger print.

Disney states….

Kim Prunty, spokeswoman for Walt Disney World. The new scanner, like the old finger geometry scanner, "takes an image, identifies a series of points, measures the distance between those points, and turns it into a numerical value." She added, "To call it a fingerprint is a little bit of a stretch."

The biometrics manufacturer states….

Raul Diaz, Lumidigm’s vice president of sales and marketing, said it is "easy" to change a system from capturing numerical information to storing an entire fingerprint image. "It's a software option," Diaz said. "It's changing just one command." Diaz said few, if any, companies store the fingerprint images due to privacy concerns.



I’ll try and find the article that says how the information is stored.

 

[Hazzard101]

I'm truly happy to see many people believe the bag check is a good system. That is what they are banking on... Making people feel good, and the "word on the street" that security checks bags.
It does sound scary to the bad guys when they first hear it, and that may initially stop them from trying... until they see what a farce it really is.

MG

I don't believe I ever alluded to this..??
See above quote!

I had a lengthy discussion with the CM at the International Gateway. Together we discovered I could use any finger.

The cast member was obviously unaware that the finger print system was not enabled at the time seeing it is done through the system and not by individuals. and seeing the CM learned this at the same time you did it would lead me to believe they had no clue to how the system worked

MG

I have replied to the quotes in red.

I do train a fair amount on security.. seeing as though I make my living as a pilot.

I don't claim to know how to fly a plane and don't make comments about things I really don't know much about. That was my point.


Besides, I'm not really sure how that relates to the finger scan??

I was talking about the fact that you believe that the bag check point was a complete joke.

MG

 

[Hazzard101]

Technically, Disney isn’t lying. They don’t have your finger print.

Disney states….

Kim Prunty, spokeswoman for Walt Disney World. The new scanner, like the old finger geometry scanner, "takes an image, identifies a series of points, measures the distance between those points, and turns it into a numerical value." She added, "To call it a fingerprint is a little bit of a stretch."

The biometrics manufacturer states….

Raul Diaz, Lumidigm’s vice president of sales and marketing, said it is "easy" to change a system from capturing numerical information to storing an entire fingerprint image. "It's a software option," Diaz said. "It's changing just one command." Diaz said few, if any, companies store the fingerprint images due to privacy concerns.



I’ll try and find the article that says how the information is stored.

That is what I read. I understood that this meant that they have changed the software to only store partial prints. This is the info I was referring to.
Cool beans. I figure it would take an act of congress to get the info from the computer. I understand what you were saying now.

 

[DVCPAT]

That is what I read. I understood that this meant that they have changed the software to only store partial prints. This is the info I was referring to.
Cool beans. I figure it would take an act of congress to get the info from the computer. I understand what you were saying now.

The BBC had an article describing how Disney monitors new shows with employees using night vision goggles. People take cameras inside and make boot leg movies. The cameras emit light which can be easily detected through night vision goggles. If Disney takes these measures for copyright infringement, imagine the technology securing the happiest place on earth. I think they want to portray Disney as a place to escape reality….that’s why they don’t have overt security measures.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Hazzard, I don't claim to be a security expert, BUT..
My point is if the Disney security bag check is so great, than why doesn't the TSA do a cursory glance in your bag and call it complete?

I think the bag check is a farce, but that doesn't mean I "believe that Disney is an unsecured place that has no control over who gets in and what they bring".

I never said Disney security does a poor job overall.
I did say the bag check is a joke, and one year the finger scan didn't seem to work properly. I stand by those statements.

There are other weak areas that I will not mention, most of which are a matter of policy, not implementation.

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Actually, this whole thing is silly. All because someone had the gall to take pictures at Walt Disney World.

MG

 

[smjj]

Easy out? I would rather over zealous than not. I would rather one irrational guard over-reacting instead of a force not trained enough.

I would guess if you had a problem, you would not call security?

So, if I read your statement correctly, you are saying they can do whatever they want to guest so long as they state it is in the name of safety and security?? That gives them free rein to be as overzealous and irrational as possible and if that is the case, then let them do whatever they want and don't worry about procedures and training. Just turn them loose. Your OK with it as long as they tell you it for your own safety??..smjj

 

[Hazzard101]

So, if I read your statement correctly, you are saying they can do whatever they want to guest so long as they state it is in the name of safety and security?? That gives them free rein to be as overzealous and irrational as possible and if that is the case, then let them do whatever they want and don't worry about procedures and training. Just turn them loose. Your OK with it as long as they tell you it for your own safety??..smjj

My thoughts on the OP are simply this, We don't know how the OP was taking pictures and how they were acting while doing so. The officer seemed to have reason to think they were out of the ordinary. Maybe he just got out of training and misunderstood the policy and if that is the case the OP did the right thing and discussed this with the supervisor. The supervisor will no doubt clarify the policy with the officer. Besides mis stating the policy I cant see anything else this officer did that was too over the top.
The questions he asked are standard and not too probing.

As for no training, Disney has one of the most comprehensive training procedures I have ever heard of. Other huge corporations come to them for training. I would have to believe they hold the same standards when it comes to training security personnel.

The rest of your statement seems a bit unsubstantiated. What the officer did was not overzealous and irrational IMHO. He may have been unclear about a policy but no actions described by the OP seem irrational.

I have had a few encounters with security and they have always been professional and helpful. I have encountered CMs who were very rude and unprofessional this is not the norm and if you think about the number of employees at Disney you would expect a small number of situations.

For the most part, the overall lesson I will take from this discussion is Disney is a great place to take your family and I am happy to know that the people in charge of security are willing to step up and check something out that they believe may be a risk. He could have seen something and said, "they don't pay me enough to check that out, and what if I am wrong?" He would have avoided the confrontation and the supervisor but it also could have been someone doing something wrong and we would never have known until it was too late.

 

[Hazzard101]

I also wonder about this system.. Last year I was able to enter using any of my fingers, including my thumb.
I'm not exactly sure how the system works. Perhaps that's normal?? If not, perhaps it was just a one time glitch.

MG

BTW did you try it with no finger?

 

[DVCPAT]

So, if I read your statement correctly, you are saying they can do whatever they want to guest so long as they state it is in the name of safety and security?? That gives them free rein to be as overzealous and irrational as possible and if that is the case, then let them do whatever they want and don't worry about procedures and training. Just turn them loose. Your OK with it as long as they tell you it for your own safety??..smjj

I think you might be exaggerating just a bit. The security guard had a conversation with Bill…..

“The conversation goes on for about 5 minutes and he asks us things like where are you staying, are you a Guest staying at WDW, When did we arrive, when are we leaving. The whole thing was really weird.”

Maybe some type of threat was made in the area. When I witnessed Disney bring a bomb sniffing dog in the AKL lobby, I assume they had good cause. Disney can’t win either way. If they use overt security measures, people get worked up about a few questions. When Disney uses covert security, people say security is a joke.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

BTW did you try it with no finger?

It wouldn't spit out the ticket until I used a fingure.

MG

 

[Geoff_M]

That is what I read. I understood that this meant that they have changed the software to only store partial prints. This is the info I was referring to.
Cool beans. I figure it would take an act of congress to get the info from the computer. I understand what you were saying now.

To understand the issue, you need to look at the "why" of the situation. The reason that WDW does the "finger scans" is to prevent ticket sharing. To accomplish this effectively Disney doesn't need a foolproof system that locks things down to the fingerprint level... or anything close to it. If they can use a system that only gives a 1% or 2% (or even a 10%) chance of Person A being able to pass themselves off as Person B then they've succeeded in effectively stopping ticket sharing. Disney's systems take length measurements of two of your fingers, drops those numbers into a formula and the result is a single number that's stored with your ticket information. That's it. Information about your fingers cannot be reverse engineered out of the number as more than one set of differing lengths of fingers can result in the same end result "number".

It's like the check digit on the end of a UPC bar code. If you look at a consumer package's bar code you'll normally see a single number set apart on the right from the rest of the numbers. That number isn't actually part of the UPC, it's the UPC "check digit". Here's the explanation of how they compute the number. UPC check digits are used to help ensure that the barcode scanner read the right number. If the cash register looks at the full bar code read with each scan and sees that the read check digit matches the one expected based on the other digits read to the left of it, it calls the code "good". Since there's only ten different check digit possibilities (0 - 9), the system offers a 90% chance of catching a bad reading of a bar code. However, if they used a formula that utilized 2 check digits, the rate would go up to 99%. Note that the check digit doesn't help you determine the UPC code in reverse because in theory 10% of all UPC codes have the same check digit. But the retailer association that designed the UPC code system felt that a 90% chance of catching an incorrectly read bar code, when it happens, was good enough for their needs.

Also, keep in mind that the more complex system that Disney uses at the turnstiles, the more the chance for problems and the more data "overhead" they will have to deal with. Accordingly, fingerprint reading will take up more system storage and more processing time to compare. Since Disney doesn't need a system that's 99.99999999% accurate, they aren't going to make any more grief for themselves than they have to.

As to the OP's comments about the security guard's stated prohibition, photographers (pro and amateur) have been putting up with this sort of hassle from police and private "Barney Fifes" ever since 9/11. In almost every case, the official has been 100% wrong about the supposed prohibitions that they state. Unless your taking photos of something like a military facility protected by an Executive Order, the exterior of a prison, or something similar, then you're OK. And while it's true that the owners (or their representatives) of private properties and eject you from their facility if you do not honor their request to not take photos, that doesn't stop their guards from making up such stuff either.

 

[DVCPAT]

Actually, this whole thing is silly. All because someone had the gall to take pictures at Walt Disney World.

MG

Have you ever flown into Israel’s airport in Tel Aviv? EI LI Airlines is the safest in the world. How do they do it??? They have a simple conversation with suspicious people. Israel does the following………..

Of course the Israelis check for bombs and weapons too, but always with the understanding that things don't hijack planes, terrorists do -- and that the best way to detect terrorists is to focus on intercepting not bad things, but bad people. To a much greater degree than in the United States, security at El Al and Ben Gurion depends on intelligence and intuition -- what Rafi Ron, the former director of security at Ben Gurion, calls the human factor.
Israeli airport security, much of it invisible to the untrained eye, begins before passengers even enter the terminal. Officials constantly monitor behavior, alert to clues that may hint at danger: bulky clothing, say, or a nervous manner. Profilers -- that's what they're called -- make a point of interviewing travelers, sometimes at length. They probe, as one profiling supervisor told CBS, for ``anything out of the ordinary, anything that does not fit." Their questions can seem odd or intrusive, especially if your only previous experience with an airport interrogation was being asked whether you packed your bags yourself.
Unlike in US airports, where passengers go through security after checking in for their flights and submitting their luggage, security at Ben Gurion comes first. Only when the profiler is satisfied that a passenger poses no risk is he or she allowed to proceed to the check-in counter. By that point, there is no need to make him remove his shoes, or to confiscate his bottle of water.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Have you ever flown into Israel’s airport in Tel Aviv? EI LI Airlines is the safest in the world. How do they do it??? They have a simple conversation with suspicious people. Israel does the following………..

Of course the Israelis check for bombs and weapons too, but always with the understanding that things don't hijack planes, terrorists do -- and that the best way to detect terrorists is to focus on intercepting not bad things, but bad people. To a much greater degree than in the United States, security at El Al and Ben Gurion depends on intelligence and intuition -- what Rafi Ron, the former director of security at Ben Gurion, calls the human factor.
Israeli airport security, much of it invisible to the untrained eye, begins before passengers even enter the terminal. Officials constantly monitor behavior, alert to clues that may hint at danger: bulky clothing, say, or a nervous manner. Profilers -- that's what they're called -- make a point of interviewing travelers, sometimes at length. They probe, as one profiling supervisor told CBS, for ``anything out of the ordinary, anything that does not fit." Their questions can seem odd or intrusive, especially if your only previous experience with an airport interrogation was being asked whether you packed your bags yourself.
Unlike in US airports, where passengers go through security after checking in for their flights and submitting their luggage, security at Ben Gurion comes first. Only when the profiler is satisfied that a passenger poses no risk is he or she allowed to proceed to the check-in counter. By that point, there is no need to make him remove his shoes, or to confiscate his bottle of water.

Yes... But... We're not talking about someone acting suspicious while flying to Israel.

We're talking about a guest taking a picture AT WALT DISNEY WORLD! I don't understand how that is out of the ordinary in any way, shape, or fashion.

MG

 

[Maistre Gracey]

To understand the issue, you need to look at the "why" of the situation. The reason that WDW does the "finger scans" is to prevent ticket sharing. To accomplish this effectively Disney doesn't need a foolproof system that locks things down to the fingerprint level... or anything close to it. If they can use a system that only gives a 1% or 2% (or even a 10%) chance of Person A being able to pass themselves off as Person B then they've succeeded in effectively stopping ticket sharing. Disney's systems take length measurements of two of your fingers, drops those numbers into a formula and the result is a single number that's stored with your ticket information. That's it. Information about your fingers cannot be reverse engineered out of the number as more than one set of differing lengths of fingers can result in the same end result "number".

It's like the check digit on the end of a UPC bar code. If you look at a consumer package's bar code you'll normally see a single number set apart on the right from the rest of the numbers. That number isn't actually part of the UPC, it's the UPC "check digit". Here's the explanation of how they compute the number. UPC check digits are used to help ensure that the barcode scanner read the right number. If the cash register looks at the full bar code read with each scan and sees that the read check digit matches the one expected based on the other digits read to the left of it, then calls the code "good". Since there's only ten different check digit possibilities (0 - 9), the system offers a 90% chance of catching a bad reading of a bar code. However, if they used a formula that utilized 2 check digits, the rate would go up to 99%.

Also, keep in mind that the more complex system that Disney uses at the turnstiles, the more the chance for problems and the more data "overhead" they will have to deal with. Actually fingerprint reading will take up more system storage and more processing time to compare. Since Disney doesn't need a system that 99.999999% accurate, they aren't going to make any more grief for themselves than they have to.

As to the OP's comments about the security guard's stated prohibition, photographers (pro and amateur) have been putting up with this sort of hassle from police and private "Barney Fifes" ever since 9/11. In almost every case, the official has been 100% wrong about the supposed prohibitions that they state. Unless your taking photos of something like a military facility protected by an Executive Order, the exterior of a prison, or something similar, then you're OK. And while it's true that the owners (or their representatives) of private properties and eject you from their facility if you do not honor their request to not take photos, that doesn't stop their guards from making up such stuff either.

I was under the impression the finger width biometrics was the old "squeeze" type thing of the past, and the new system scanned a couple points of your prints. Not the whole print, but just a couple points.

MG

 

[Geoff_M]

I was under the impression the finger width biometrics was the old "squeeze" type thing of the past, and the new system scanned a couple points of your prints. Not the whole print, but just a couple points.

MG

Regardless of what they're measuring (length, width, or a couple "points" on your print), the end result is the same. They're using a "check digit" type scheme that does a reasonably good job of determining that the ticket inserted is yours, but doesn't provide information that can be used to point to you in a vacuum of other facts. It's like the PIN on your ATM card. Your PIN code only provides a 99.99% rate of protection (assuming a single random guess)... but if someone says "Well this dude's PIN is 1234, who is it?" you can't answer "Hey, that's Geoff_M!!!" since approximately 100 people in a million have the same PIN as me.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

Regardless of what they're measuring (length, width, or a couple "points" on your print), the end result is the same. They're using a "check digit" type scheme that does a reasonably good job of determining that the ticket inserted is yours, but doesn't provide information that can be used to point to you in a vacuum of other facts. It's like the PIN on your ATM card. Your PIN code only provides a 99.99% rate of protection (assuming a single random guess)... but if someone says "Well this dude's PIN is 1234, who is it?" you can't answer "Hey, that's Geoff_M!!!" since approximately 100 people in a million have the same PIN as me.

Got it... Agreed.

MG

 

[Geoff_M]

Got it... Agreed.

MG

Here'e the relevant quote from a Disney official on the "controversy":

"We are not collecting fingerprints," Disney representative Kim Prunty said. "We are not collecting personal information. The sole purpose is to create a numerical value that links out guest with their Magic Your Way tickets.

...

"The system takes an image, it identifies points on that image and measures the distance between those points and immediately creates a numerical value on the blink of an eye," Prunty said. "And it's the numerical value that's stored in our system and recalled when a guest reenters our turn styles using their Magic Your Way tickets."

 

[DVCPAT]

Regardless of what they're measuring (length, width, or a couple "points" on your print), the end result is the same. They're using a "check digit" type scheme that does a reasonably good job of determining that the ticket inserted is yours, but doesn't provide information that can be used to point to you in a vacuum of other facts. It's like the PIN on your ATM card. Your PIN code only provides a 99.99% rate of protection (assuming a single random guess)... but if someone says "Well this dude's PIN is 1234, who is it?" you can't answer "Hey, that's Geoff_M!!!" since approximately 100 people in a million have the same PIN as me.

The biometrics manufacturer says it’s a simple software option…...

Raul Diaz, Lumidigm’s vice president of sales and marketing, said it is "easy" to change a system from capturing numerical information to storing an entire fingerprint image. "It's a software option," Diaz said. "It's changing just one command." Diaz said few, if any, companies store the fingerprint images due to privacy concerns.