SeaWorld-Ethical Question ??

[PoppyAnna]

I watch this thread with interest.
We visited Seaworld in 2001 as a couple and enjoyed the day, I felt the message re: conservation and rescue were strong and I came away with a good feeling. On all honesty we were there more for the rides.
We visited Seaworld this year in May with our two DD's and my Mum, I felt during the "I believe" show "Shamu" was sluggish, bored and reluctant to perform. How did I feel this about a killer whale, you may ask? I can't explain it rationally it just seemed he needed lots of coaxing by the trainers, too many fishy treats to do the next trick and so on.
The Dolphin pool was the same, I felt there are too many Dolphins in there for the size pool and swimming around in the same circular motions to "interact" with these people shoving their hands in the water just didn't feel right.
We don't visit Zoo's in this country, I prefer to take my children to farms to witness animals up close in a more familiar environment - I know there aren't too many Dolphins at my local zoo but I would rather try to explain to my children that the farm animals there on a farm for a reason (milk, meat etc) and that they will have to wait until they are lucky enough to see other animals in their proper environment.
I came away from Seaworld feeling uncomfortable thinking that I'll never go back again.
As we are going back to Orlando next month we will not be going to Seaworld or AK but we will be going to Busch gardens which I am a little nervous about, we'll wait and see how it turns out and how I feel about it.

 

[mama4321]

When we swam with the dolphins at Discovery Cove a couple of years ago, the trainers talked to us about how and where to touch the dolphins. It was all very controlled and we felt happy that the dolphins were ok and that there welfare was treated very seriously.

The next day we went to Seaworld and encountered the dolphin pool where crowds of people were putting their hands in and touching the dolphins anyway they wanted with no controls at all. That left us feeling very sorry for the dolphins who were just looking to get fed and so needed to come near the edges of the pool.

I'm afraid we felt very uncomfortable with this and some of the other aspects of Seaworld. We won't be rushing back.

 

[Girlsontour]

And what about Barney, the only living dinasour, expected to perform every half and hour day in day out.........

Everyone seems to have forgotten about the recently captured Yeti....he seems to have to hang about the roof of a cave, hardly seeing any daylight

 

[Lizzybear]

I have to say I feel a bit like this, I still don't like the idea of Discovery Cove for partially the same reason (also swimming with a dolphin just isn't something that appeals to me in the least..) I didn't really enjoy any of the SW shows, I prefer to go for Kraken and to look at the non performing animals. This year may be the first (together) last time me and bf go to SW unless (thinking into the future here *lol*) we go with kids one day and they want to go. I just wanted him to go as he's never been and it didn't cost much extra as a combo with a BG ticket. When I went last time I didn't even spend a full day there.

 

[SimonV]

The other big factor in this debate is that so many animals are now born into 'captivity', that the only option is to keep them at places like SW and BG (and use them as great examples of how we need to do better with conservation and environmental issues). Animals born at places like SW and BG simply cannot be released back into the wild as they would never be able to fend for themselves, while there are actually fewer and fewer areas for some animals (like the African Highland gorillas at BG) to be realsed back to. Therefore, you either have to stop animals breeding in captivity so they don't perpetuate the zoo system - or you have to use the zoo system to educate people about what is happening in the rest of the world. Provided zoos like SW and BG do the latter, I am very comfortable with what they do. The alternative, to my way of thinking, is a much less caring society where we go on destroying animal habitats at a frightening rate

 

[cleo]

I was going to say something along the lines of what DCDMarkyG mentioned regarding family pets. Although they are domesticated animals now, cats, dogs, horses, etc, were not always domestic animals. They no longer live in environments natural to their species, no longer act in ways natural to their species and survive because people provide the means for them to survive. Are we wrong to do this? Does the mutual love, care and devotion to and with our pets (abuse cases aside; no one could argue that is the typical 'family pet' experience) have any merit, or should all pet ownership end? I would argue most family pets live a far better, more enriched, more secure life than if they remained wild. After all, wild dogs sought out human companionship, to their benefit, and vise versa. It was not a one way street. There a similar behavior in wild dolphins, even when left to their own devises.

SeaWorld and Busch Gardens especially, but also Disney, have a very strong moral and ethical philosophy when it comes to the animals entrusted to their care. However, if an individual is uncomfortable with animals in captivity, no amount of care or concern on the part of the animals owners or trainers will change the fact they are captive and will remain that way. They have great respect for the animal's desire to 'perform' or not, the work they do has (in my mind) huge benefit to the species as a whole and to people as a result, and that outweighs, for me, any concerns about captive-bred animals remaining 'captive'.

But it's a personal choice. There are other park choices if SeaWorld does not fit in with your own sense of right and wrong.

 

[PaulaSB12]

But killer whales are not domesticad nor can they be. They are bred and then shipped to other parks when in the natural state they stay with their family groups for life. Look at the pools, see how small they are this is for animals designed to travel for miles how deap are they? why is there no enrichment equipment or any cover to protect them from the elements like the sun?

http://cfhs.ca/wild/marine_mammals_in_captivity/


When Sea world opened some moron decided to do this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-I40PpmOY4

The killer whale was put down for someone's stupidity. There have been attacks on trainers by killer whales. New killer whales put in groups in other sea parks have been killed. One of the killer whales in Orlando was in a group of whales that about 15 years ago drowned a trainer. There has also been incidents of self harm by whales on them self probably down to depression and boredom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GozjUStn_wU

Come december I am going to see killer whales how they should be swimming in the sea at Norway, I will even be snorkelling with them. I am sorry but it past time to stop breading them let them die off and not replace them, with some animals groups do help to conserve them but not by doing unnatural tricks in small paddling pools!

 

[Obi Wan Kenobi]

the problem is that if you are going to be true to an "ethical" way of life, you would not go to Florida at all.

vast tracks of swampland have been drained and given over to building for humans and yes, that has to include Disney world and the other parks.
Many gators get found in peoples pools and on site at disney because their homes have been drained and they have nowhere else to go.

When we first went to Florida, Disney was half the size it is now, Kissimmee was a small cowboy type town and all along the 17/92 were orange groves (again, a produce that drained the swamps to allow these groves to be built)

The point is where do you draw a line without affecting any wildlife??

 

[cleo]

You make a very good point, Obi. Because Disney's development disrupted so many natural habitats, they were required to 'minimize the impact' by setting aside the land that is now Disney's Wilderness Preserve. But talk to the animals who lost their homes and their lives so we could have the Magic Kingdom & Co and I'll bet they don't feel the Wilderness Preserve is much compensation.

It's a pretty far stretch from captive whales, I supposed, but then again, not really.

I would argue that Killer Whales can be domesticated, in a fashion (they DO survive and thrive in captivity, as is evidenced by the fact they breed and their young also survive), and they certainly have their family group around them at SeaWorld. They also respond favorably to their handlers, which is further evidence they are 'domesticated'. There are loads of enrichement programs for them and they are protected from the elements, appropriate to their needs. You never see a sunburnt or otherwise weather-damaged whale at SeaWorld. Their health and safety is of paramount importance.

But again, if you're against any animal being kept from their natural habitat, regardless of the circumstances of their birth, that's where you draw your line. Nothing wrong with that, and in that case, visiting the other parks is the right thing for you and for your family.

 

[rickhasco]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone on both sides of the divide for their contribution is this emotive subject.
As mentioned previously, I had the pleasure 16 years ago of swimming with Dolphins in the sea in Israel and I honestly do not think anything could equal that experience. Likewise, when I last went to Orlando, I visited Gatorland which gave a clear indication of how the Tourist Industry has taken away animals natural habitats. I think in all honesty, I will probably give Seaworld a miss for although they do a great deal for Conservation, in my mind, animals like Shamu should exist in their natural environment.
Thanks again
Rick

 

[DCDMarkyG]

This is a fascinating debate and I can understand both sides.
Snorkling with wild killer whales is not something I would sign up for unless its after they've had a huge meal first !

Just to add another twist to the debate, would you let your kids watch Free Willy or Flipper ? The revenue for these films perpetuates the training of killer whales and dolphins and portrays a cartoon image of predatory species. However the false image of these creatures also helps them survive because of the romantacised image promoting conservation.

Like most things in life, there is no black and white, you just pick the lightest shade of grey you are comfortable with.

 

[T16GEM]

Another side of it, is that it does allow people to see animals that they would probably never see which may help more people understand about animals and their needs.

I must agree with this, it's important that you remember how much conservation work the parks do, as do the UK Zoos etc. We took our kids to Twycross recently and while I do feel sometimes that the enclosures could be bigger etc they kids are never going to get a chance to go into the jungle to see some of the monkeys and other primates that they have there so they would miss out on seeing them. I feel that it's important that my children are made aware that we have endangered species and exactly what they look like, the internet is a great thing but it's not the same as seeing them swinging through the trees. I know some animals look like they are unhappy, but I am sure that they would be even more unhappy if they were released into the wild and didn't have their daily bucket of meat bought to them - they would never fend for themselves.

However, I don't agree with keeping Barney in captivity - poor thing!

But each to their own, it's up to you whether you visit the parks or not.

 

[rickhasco]

I thought I would re-visit this thread with our eventual "outcome" as it was such an interesting debate.
We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??

 

[JohnnySharp2]

Thanks for the update and I see you kind of found your own answers.

It's always going to be something that attracts differing opinions, the one thing they do always emphasise is a number of the dolphins, manatee's etc they have simply wouldn't survive in their natural habitat.
Many are recovered and cared for at Sea World.

 

[PoppyAnna]

I thought I would re-visit this thread with our eventual "outcome" as it was such an interesting debate.
We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??

Thanks for the interesting update.
Couldn't agree more

 

[Grumpy John]

On a lighter maybe they should finally release the dinosaurs in the Animal Kingdom and all those poors things at Jurassic Park in IOA

 

[disneyholic family]

thanks for the follow up!!

 

[paulh]

thanks for the folow up,did you visit AL and if so did disney hold up better on the animal welfare front? as i find then beter than seaworld
Paulh

 

[orlandothebeagle]

What a interesting thread, this always bothered me, but they do seem to do good, but ultimatly they do it to make money, I do believe though if they are in captivaty it is better they do stuff and be stimulated, like ineract with people, I know it is not ideal, in an ideal world they would be out there in the ocean not being fished by certain countrys(not even going to go there)
Mum went on a dolphin adventure thing in Jamacia and said it was a disgrace, but discovery cove she was happy with
I dont know.That said I did enjoy discovery cove.

 

[PudseyChancer]

We decided in the end to visit Seaworld in December and judge for ourselves. We really wanted to see Kraken (closed for maintenance...grrr) and Journey to Atlantis (ride broke down whilst we sat in queue for 30 mins...double grrr)
We watched the performing SeaLion show which in all honestly, though funny, left a bitter taste in our mouths. We also saw constant repetitive behaviour of the Walruses swimmiing in circular loops and the "petting" Dolphin area. At this point, after 2 hours in the Park, my wife and I decided we'd seen enough and left before the Shamu show.
We've just come back from a family holiday/wedding in Newfoundland Canada and as part of the trip, we managed to go Whale Watching in the Sea. The experience of seeing a Whale's fin rise out of the sea is indescribable and I for one will never forgot 2 amazing hours of my life. I'm glad I saw things this way in a natural environment rather than a manufactured one.....each to their own I guess ??

Whilst this thread is indeed interesting, it's hardly a fair comparison. I don't know how you can have expected to have had your previous experiences of interacting with dolphins and whales in their natural habitat, repeated with those in captivity. Perhaps you may have enjoyed going to the various parts of Seaworld that relate their valuable work in helping treat injured dolphins, manatees, etc, more than visiting the areas that you had considerable concerns about before you travelled.