School violence

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

That's crazy that the district doesn't have to continue to educate students who are expelled. So what happens to expelled students? They just sit at home the rest of the school year and then re-enroll the next year? Do they have to repeat the grade? I thought Kentucky was one of the bottom states in education, but at least we don't just kick kids out of school with no back up plan for their education.

Honestly I don't know on that. I'd like to think that because of the hearing process the number of students who are expelled are lower but I really don't know. I also like to think that with the hearing process to get to that level it would be pretty egregious for an expulsion to be given.

Like I said in my other comment the state has a tradition of school districts having more say for their own students, the education here isn't subpar because there's less state interference. That's also one of the reasons when the governor closed all the school buildings down at the very beginning of the pandemic it drew a lot of ire because it was a state-wide interference irrespective of the voice the districts have with consideration of their students.

You're going to find much more alternative school options in more populated area and likely that's due to $$$$ as well as characteristics. The school district my house is in the city that is also the county seat and thus the county courthouse is located here plus the juvenile detention center is located right next to the county courthouse, it's not a burden to have some of these places specifically set up within a criminal system. Also of note a prior governor in our not so distant past his two favorite places to cut funding was education and roads. It took years to build that back up but budgets were heavily impacted.

FWIW while there does seem to be a good amount of states that regulate alternative schools not all are like the school district has to or is the one to do it at least according to that link I shared. There are states that say "may provide" but don't say have to. Others say the parent has to do the searching (MI for one said that). Alaska is like KS where it doesn't show up as a statute or regulation. And then yes there are states where they are legally required to. In KY the link advises: "Yes. Boards of Education must ensure that expelled students are provided with educational services in an alternative program or setting." If you look at UT however "Parents are responsible for ensuring continuing education during a period of suspension or expulsion lasting more than 10 days. Designated school officials are available to assist parents in determining a course of action, which may include private education or alternative programs."

I'm going to guess it's like a lot of things where you don't really think about it until the topic of conversation comes up. I doubt many of us are thinking about if the state legally forces the school district to help my expelled student until it happens.

 

[wenrob]

What you posted doesn't say by law they have to find alternative schooling which is the comment I was referring to, of course there are alternative schools though within KS that's def. true. What you posted just sets up that it's within the law that they may create alternative schools. I'm not saying I couldn't be wrong but I found no information that upon expulsion a school is legally required to find alternative learning. I did find that no school legally has to take you once you've been expelled or suspended regardless if your residency qualifies you to attend there.

In the school district my house is in they have 4 alternative schools 1 under the county's corrections department, 1 under the juvenile detention center, 1 for those who are recommended under a high school counselor and 1 for suspended or expelled students.

However, the school district I grew up under has 1 alternative school and it's just for high school and it's for all students.


Here's a document regarding regulation by state: https://ecs.secure.force.com/mbdata/MBQuest2RTanw?rep=SD1805

Granted the document is from 2018 but it was a quick easy one. State law may have changed since then but assuming it's still accurate for KS under the question: "Are there alternative schooling options available for students who are suspended or expelled?" for KS the answer listed under that document is "Not specified in statute or regulation. Gifted children are not required to be provided with special education or related services upon suspension or expulsion."

For the OP they are in MO that document reflects: "Yes. School districts must pay toward per pupil costs for alternative education programs."

School districts across KS def. have alternative schools and options available but that varies where you live and at least from what I could find the state does not regulate that a school must find alternative. From the educational tradition of KS there's a preference towards allowing school districts to make their own decisions. There's laws like compulsory attendance and such so I'm not saying there isn't other laws that are required by the state just that in general schools are given a lot more decision making. This has for sure played out quite a lot during the pandemic.

To be honest, I don’t care to read all of that. We can play semantics all we want but the public school system is set up to educate kids whether it’s officially the law or not. I guess the only way we’ll know 100% is if you get on the phone with your board of education and find out. I’ve never known the system to just completely wash their hands of a kid and I find it hard to believe any would.

I agree. It swung hard that way after Columbine - in the district I came up in, one student was expelled over a forgotten Swiss Army knife and another was suspended because a parking lot patrol noticed a paring knife on the back seat of her car. Then, around me at least, it swung back toward more reasonable case-by-case policies for a while. But after Oxford, which is <50 miles from me, everyone is on edge and taking things more seriously again.



I think that last line is a lot of it. And I don't think, in places where knives are more likely to be tools than weapons, it would be unreasonable to treat children a little more like adults - DH is prohibited from buying nice pocket knives any more because he carries one on his hip daily and the list of places where he's had them confiscated/thrown out is so long it has become a family joke. But no one is calling police every time a man carries a Leatherman into a museum, airport, or concert. But we're expelling kids and getting the police involved if they forget to take their Boy Scout knife out of a backpack or jacket that is used for both school and camping/hiking/hunting. I'm not sure that kind of policy makes anyone safer (other than the school district from lawsuits, maybe).

Like I said, not for or against I just can see why they might not choose to take it case by case. The irony here is that my DD was required to bring knives to school, really big ones, bought through them. (It was a Magnet School and she was in Culinary)

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

To be honest, I don’t care to read all of that. We can play semantics all we want but the public school system is set up to educate kids whether it’s officially the law or not. I guess the only way we’ll know 100% is if you get on the phone with your board of education and find out. I’ve never known the system to just completely wash their hands of a kid and I find it hard to believe any would.

You know normally I quite respect you, we even seem to agree on a different subject about the original content of this thread, but if you're not going to bother to read my response and then comment about something, that which I spoke about already in my comment, that my state doesn't regulate this, then that's on you. The answer is in my comment, read it or not but please don't do me the disservice by claiming it's semantics.

We all know education systems are designed to educate. What the topic of conversation was laws surrounding this. If you had read the link at least you'd realize that other states do not legally require placement either, but they, unlike KS (and AK appearantly), do have regulation or a statute to back that up. What you initially posted about KS just sets up that it's legal within the state to create an alternative school. There are other states in the U.S. that do not legally require a school district to find placement for a student that has been expelled.

Regardless all this talk is clearly not what the thread was about.

 

[MomOfDisneyPrincess]

My friend's son bought a decorative pocket knife on vacation and even though he was warned numerous times by his parents NOT to take that knife to school, he did it anyway because he wanted to show his friends at middle school. Someone told on him and he was suspended for two days. That was 20 years ago! I can't imagine they would not take this seriously now.

A girl in my daughter's middle school gym class took a bow and arrow, pointed it at my daughter and said she was going to shoot her with it and she was suspended for two days. They also changed that girl's schedule because she could not be in class with my daughter anymore. The school volunteered that, but I was glad they did.

In retaliation for that incident, a friend of that girl told the principle that my daughter had a pocket knife in her backpack. DD was pulled into the office, her backpack was searched, nothing was found and then they asked her about it. She confirmed there was no knife and told them it was probably (named the girl) because she had been bullying her over the bow and arrow incident. I got called in and had to talk to the resource office and assure her that that there were no weapons of any kind in my home. I actually shared several bullying incidents with the resource office and my DD named some names and she said she would keep an eye on her and intervene if she saw any of these girls bullying my daughter. There was no disciplinary action against my child and she actually felt like the resource officer had her back after that.

In the op's situation, I think the children should all have been interviewed and all parents called. Once the school did their investigation, the children who broke rules should have received whatever consequence the school has set, which in my opinion should have included suspension for some period of time. Parents need to be involved in disciplining their children and if the offence is great enough, one way to be sure the parent/s get involved is to suspend the child.

A lot of posts are talking expulsion for this kind of thing - are we confusing expulsion with suspension? Maybe I read too quickly through the previous posts.

 

[tzolkin]

A lot of posts are talking expulsion for this kind of thing - are we confusing expulsion with suspension?

Nope, not confusing the two. Some school districts have a zero tolerance policy for weapons and drugs where the punishment for bringing any to school regardless of the circumstances is immediate expulsion.

This type of policy can be taken to the extreme and include things like plastic knives or Tylenol.

 

[lifesavacation]

I have a nephew that was kicked out of middle school for threatening to shoot up the school and kill people. He was living with his mom at the time, who ended up handing him off to his dad in another state. He's being homeschooled right now. He's a really strange kid and if I had little kids I would definitely not want them anywhere near him. Hopefully, he's never allowed to go back into a traditional learning environment.

 

[MrsPete]

Some school districts have a zero tolerance policy for weapons and drugs where the punishment for bringing any to school regardless of the circumstances is immediate expulsion.

Being kicked out of your local high school doesn't mean being excluded from the public school system altogether:
- Often the student is allowed to enroll at a different school -- that one's always confused me.
- Sometimes the student is allowed to return at the beginning of the next school year -- often with a behavior contract in which the student and his parents agree to stricter rules than the rest of the students /show that they understand they have no second chances.
- Often the school system has a "alternative school" or a "second chance school" or an "opportunity school" -- possibly online. These are usually second-rate institutions, but they DO allow the student to continue his education.
- Kids who are over 16 have the option to enter a GED program at a community college.

Think about it: even kids who are sent to Juvenile Detention Centers (kid jail) are entitled to continue their education.

 

[pigletto]

Being kicked out of your local high school doesn't mean being excluded from the public school system altogether:
- Often the student is allowed to enroll at a different school -- that one's always confused me.
- Sometimes the student is allowed to return at the beginning of the next school year -- often with a behavior contract in which the student and his parents agree to stricter rules than the rest of the students /show that they understand they have no second chances.
- Often the school system has a "alternative school" or a "second chance school" or an "opportunity school" -- possibly online. These are usually second-rate institutions, but they DO allow the student to continue his education.
- Kids who are over 16 have the option to enter a GED program at a community college.

Think about it: even kids who are sent to Juvenile Detention Centers (kid jail) are entitled to continue their education.

My daughter is an EA in our “last chance“ school for all the kids they don’t know what to do with. Every expelled child goes there, anyone too violent, anyone severely mentally ill with unmanaged behaviours, undiagnosed behavioural disorders. The zero tolerance policy just means they all end up there. There is a primary and high school division. Nobody is kicked out.


( eta and I won’t get started on how awful I think it is that they are all lumped together or how terribly sad their home lives can be.. just wanted to agree with you that they don’t all just get expelled and never heard from again .)

 

[tzolkin]

Being kicked out of your local high school doesn't mean being excluded from the public school system altogether:
- Often the student is allowed to enroll at a different school -- that one's always confused me.
- Sometimes the student is allowed to return at the beginning of the next school year -- often with a behavior contract in which the student and his parents agree to stricter rules than the rest of the students /show that they understand they have no second chances.
- Often the school system has a "alternative school" or a "second chance school" or an "opportunity school" -- possibly online. These are usually second-rate institutions, but they DO allow the student to continue his education.
- Kids who are over 16 have the option to enter a GED program at a community college.

Think about it: even kids who are sent to Juvenile Detention Centers (kid jail) are entitled to continue their education.

I’m honestly not sure why this is a response to my post. A previous poster asked if people were confusing suspension with expulsion and I simply said no.

All the things you mention are for kids who are expelled, which is certainly different than being suspended for a few days.

I never said being expelled means that a child has absolutely no option for continuing their education. I’m familiar with all of the options you listed. I simply don’t believe they are the appropriate first step for a kindergartener who accidentally has a pocketknife in their backpack or a teen girl who forgot that she had some Tylenol in her purse.

 

[MrsPete]

My daughter is an EA in our “last chance“ school for all the kids they don’t know what to do with. Every expelled child goes there, anyone too violent, anyone severely mentally ill with unmanaged behaviours, undiagnosed behavioural disorders. The zero tolerance policy just means they all end up there. There is a primary and high school division. Nobody is kicked out.


( eta and I won’t get started on how awful I think it is that they are all lumped together or how terribly sad their home lives can be.. just wanted to agree with you that they don’t all just get expelled and never heard from again .)

Yes, school systems are required to provide something for the kids who are expelled. You're right about it not being a good place.

I’m honestly not sure why this is a response to my post. A previous poster asked if people were confusing suspension with expulsion and I simply said no.

All the things you mention are for kids who are expelled, which is certainly different than being suspended for a few days.

I never said being expelled means that a child has absolutely no option for continuing their education. I’m familiar with all of the options you listed. I simply don’t believe they are the appropriate first step for a kindergartener who accidentally has a pocketknife in their backpack or a teen girl who forgot that she had some Tylenol in her purse.

I was responding to the "no education for the expelled" concept in general. If you took offense at it being attached to your post, I'm sorry for that.