School now banning all "out of term" holiday leave

[howlongtillsummer?]

Yes I teach P6. At least I know I have done my best, my class will sit transfer tests in autumn which determines their choice of secondary school. But I have always made the packs even when I taught P1s. I had a better return rate for those

 

[UKDEB]

In relation to Deb's earlier comment - and I'm a Headteacher - it is not a right to take your child out of school. If you take your child out of school without the HT's permission, it is illegal and, whilst unlikely, you could be risking prosecution.

Unsurprisingly, the whole subject is complex, but in simple terms it isn't illegal for me to take my child out of school for legitimate reasons. There's a not-so-subtle difference between that and claiming I have a right to do so (which are your words, not mine). If I ask my Head for permission to take my child out for a holiday and such permission is declined, the absence should be recorded as unauthorised, but as I've already mentioned, this isn't in the interests of the school, so many will choose to record it as authorised. Of course, if it is recorded as unauthorised, I run the risk of my child losing their place at that school, but there would need to be other extenuating circumstances for such an action to be enforceable. Simply taking my child out of school for a holiday because my husband and I can not get time off in school holidays (which was our reality for many years), would not be sufficient justification for a school to exclude my child. nor for an LEA to bring a prosecution.

 

[janiebubble]

I'm sticking my nose in here, probably unwanted/unnecessary ... I teach in a sixth form college, and I would just point out that the situation is different - a holiday is never counted as an authorised absence, we don't HAVE to educate your child (so we could exclude - although it is unlikely) and I know this may sound incredibly obvious, but the vast amount of testing (which does take place twice a year - january and summer) CANNOT be moved. You wouldn't believe the fact I've had conversations with parents who've said 'this was the only time we could take our holiday can't you move the exam???' when the child was due to take an A level or equivalent (or who have let their child MISS an A level exam to attend a football match!!!)

 

[UKDEB]

You should see school as a job - would you just walk out on your job for two weeks without permission. No you wouldn't.

You know, I can totally understand that, as a teacher, you would feel this way. I've absolutely no doubt that if I were a teacher, I would think that way, too. But please understand that I have an entirely different point of view. For me, school is a part of my child's life; a big part of my child's life (and, thus, mine, too), but our lives do not revolve around it in the way that teachers imagine it does/should. I have huge issues with our education system - far too involved for this thread - and other separate issues with schools themselves. As a former co-opted governor, I felt I brought a balance to the board I served on. The Head Teacher was a truly exceptional individual - committed and passionate, but unbelievably blinkered in some respects. She knew I admired and respected her and would never have dreamed of undermining her authority. In turn, I knew she valued the fact that I wasn't afraid to challenge and to think laterally.

All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job. I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, the night before. This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us. We have school and jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same. That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble. I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.

 

[UKDEB]

You wouldn't believe the fact I've had conversations with parents who've said 'this was the only time we could take our holiday can't you move the exam???' when the child was due to take an A level or equivalent (or who have let their child MISS an A level exam to attend a football match!!!)

Well, isn't this precisely the problem? As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator. I refuse to accept that I have to be bound by others' lack of intelligence.

 

[2Tiggies]

Well, isn't this precisely the problem? As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator. I refuse to accept that I have to be bound by others' lack of intelligence.

Well, isn't this precisely the problem? As a society, we're adopting blanket policies to deal with the lowest common denominator. [/QUOTE]

And that, dear friends, forms the basis of the debate on this thread! This is just another example in our modern society where rules and regulations are imposed generally, but leave no room for flexibility. Let's face it, black and white may be pretty clear, but individuals you cannot confine everyone's circumstances and lives to fit the little boxes we are supposed to live in. Somewhere in all this legislation there should surely be allowances made for those who do not have "the appropriate level of authority to make certain decisions" to, at the very least, be permitted to apply basic common sense when assessing a situation. Part of the problem is that those who make these rules are not the ones who deal with the people on a daily basis.

 

[2Tiggies]

All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job. I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, the night before. This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us. We have school and jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same. That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble. I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.

Now there is something I can relate to - which I commonly refer to as our "Eleventh Hour Communications". After a full day at work, I have to go and collect my child and usually there is some activity/sport on. So after 8 pm when I have checked and gone over her homework with her, fed her, made sure she has had her bath and all the other daily tasks required, it is a somewhat inconvenient time to be presented with a letter requesting something which requires a minimum of a day's planning.

we don't HAVE to educate your child

But we HAVE to make sure our children are at school?

 

[joolz1910]

All my adult life, I've worked full-time in a demanding job. I've lost count of the number of times I received a list of equipment required for a school trip or the like, the night before. This, to me, is an example of teachers thinking that, because their lives naturally revolve around school, it's the same for the rest of us. We have school and jobs to consider; for teachers, it's one and the same. That simply isn't conducive to gaining an understanding of what is reality for those of us living outside the school bubble. I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.

I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.

Some teachers are parents too!

 

[scojos]

I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.

Some teachers are parents too!

hear hear!!

 

[scojos]

This is a really interesting idea! Until I read the return rate that it! At least you are trying!!! Are you Primary?

Scojos - I might want to tap into some of your expertise. We have a HFASD child (in Year 2) who we are really struggling with.....

He he - we did all the language stuff around WS too!!!

if i can help in anyway with your asd student id be honoured, i taught in a school with an asd "attachment" so whilst not an expert, having josh has made me very aware
you might want to post a general thread, several of us on here have asd kids - there is also the disabiliites thread which is a hive of info where asd is concerned (obviously wdw themed, but the info could be useful in the class too...
HTH
tracy

 

[melly]

I am a teacher and I don't think like this! I have 3 kids and it drives me mad too when I am asked for yet another costume etc. I believe that I live outside the school 'bubble' and have a reasonably firm grip on reality. I too have a job and my children's school to consider. Education is (obviously) a big part of my life but it isn't the most important thing in my life! My life does not revolve around school - my job will never be as important as my family.

Some teachers are parents too!

The bubble that people refer to isn't about whether you have a family or not, its about if you've experienced the big wide working world outside of school. For so many teachers they have spent their entire life at school. It starts at nursery then infant school. Then primary school. Then high school. Then 6th form. Then uni. And when it comes to work [you guessed it] back to school.

For this reason it is a bubble and many many teacher have no grasp of things external to that something I've seen with numerous teachers I know

 

[luke]

Do you really think teachers have no experience of 'the real world'?
Although that 'career arch' that youve pointed out does fit me, plenty of teachers joined the profession from other careers.

Also how does that not give you experience of 'the real world'? Sure it gives you a lack of understanding of other jobs, but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts

 

[scojos]

Do you really think teachers have no experience of 'the real world'?
, but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts

god, i wish it was

i myself had a career outside of school, i trained in nutrition/catering and worked in hotels (and i challenge anyone to find a harder job, both physically and mentally) and then retrained to teach following the arrival of my children (i actually recived a credit card bill for £100 which i couldnt pay OMG if my bills were that small now
i totally agree that some teachers have done that school-uni-school thing but in general they are the worst teachers and kids do pick up on this, the ability to manage 30 unruly kids is alot easier when you have managed a drunken stag do - trust me
life skills make teachers human, and i am glad that i have a life outside of the classroom.
are we not drifting off subject again?

 

[2Tiggies]

Also how does that not give you experience of 'the real world'? Sure it gives you a lack of understanding of other jobs, but we don't live in the school you know, it's not Hogwarts

WHAT????!!! You mean you actually live in a house? In a street, where other people live too?

 

[2Tiggies]

are we not drifting off subject again?

It seems so. Should we get back on track and keep this open? At least we are getting to know each other pretty well on here!

 

[scojos]

It seems so. Should we get back on track and keep this open? At least we are getting to know each other pretty well on here!

this is true, hey id rather chat with you teachers about disney than watch dr who

 

[janiebubble]

Now there is something I can relate to - which I commonly refer to as our "Eleventh Hour Communications". After a full day at work, I have to go and collect my child and usually there is some activity/sport on. So after 8 pm when I have checked and gone over her homework with her, fed her, made sure she has had her bath and all the other daily tasks required, it is a somewhat inconvenient time to be presented with a letter requesting something which requires a minimum of a day's planning.



But we HAVE to make sure our children are at school?

no I think you missed my point, I teach at a sixth form college, and at present once your child is 16 they don't HAVE to be in education, so just in the same way we don't HAVE to educate them. It is post compulsory education ... all I was trying to say was be careful if your children reach 16, at this age you may find that a) there are more 'unmovable' dates such as national exams, and b) because attendance isn't compulsory you may find your child either disciplined/asked to attend holiday catch up (in our college's case) or if the absences were excessive - ultimately excluded.

 

[mickeyforpresident]

I have huge issues with our education system - far too involved for this thread - and other separate issues with schools themselves. QUOTE]

I think you'll find that most teachers do too!!

 

[mickeyforpresident]

I don't mean that to come across as condescending, but I have seen enough in my time to believe it's a fair assessment.

I don't believe you have been condescending, but have just put your point across.

 

[mickeyforpresident]

Unsurprisingly, the whole subject is complex, but in simple terms it isn't illegal for me to take my child out of school for legitimate reasons. There's a not-so-subtle difference between that and claiming I have a right to do so (which are your words, not mine). If I ask my Head for permission to take my child out for a holiday and such permission is declined, the absence should be recorded as unauthorised, but as I've already mentioned, this isn't in the interests of the school, so many will choose to record it as authorised. Of course, if it is recorded as unauthorised, I run the risk of my child losing their place at that school, but there would need to be other extenuating circumstances for such an action to be enforceable. Simply taking my child out of school for a holiday because my husband and I can not get time off in school holidays (which was our reality for many years), would not be sufficient justification for a school to exclude my child. nor for an LEA to bring a prosecution.

You are both right and wrong. You do not have a right (yes, my words) to take your child out of school. You can of course for legitimate reasons (e.g medical appts). Term Time Holidays are not a right and should be marked as unauthorised. You clock up "x" (in my authority it's 12 days - so more than two weeks) the school can issue a penalty notice. You could also lose your child's place and I don't know of any extenuating circumstances if it were a holiday you took when you weren't given permission to do so. This wouldn't be a exclusion. You would have failed to bring your child into school and therefore lost the place. Probably over subscribed schools would be able to do this.

Also, persistent unuthorised absence, for example, the failure to bring your child to school could (but a VERY BIG could) lead you to prosecution which could (again a VERY BIG COULD) lead the parents to being imprisonned.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm just outlining the facts (from my point of view / professional standing). I don't agree with it fully.