School now banning all "out of term" holiday leave

[Pegasus928]

When we spoke to my DD headteacher (primary school) about taking her out for a 2 week holiday he was very supportive and said he didn't have an issue with it. He also added that the rules regarding fining parents wasn't aimed at those of us who rarely do it, but - and this is the example he gave - more to those kids whose parents may have seperated and they go on one holiday with Mum, then another with Dad and possibly holidays with grand parents too. I could see his point on this where a child could potentially miss a minimum of 4 weeks schooling in a year - possibly more.
The other experience we had was last year when we asked to take DS out of secondary school. I was working away at the time - sometimes up to 6 weeks away from home - and this is clearly one of the criteria where they will authorise the abscence. Although they did authorise it they said it was a one off and wouldnt be authorised in the future My argument was that if we fell into the cirteria this time, and used the very same reasons next time we applied, why should one be authorised and one not.
It's these inconsistancies that frustrate people I feel.

Finally I would never seek to vent or blame the teachers for carrying out the rules that are laid down by the LEA. The majority of teachers I know do a fantastic job and thoroughly earn their money. One of our closest friends is a teacher and they couldn't come out for a drink with us the weekend before I came away recently because she had to stay in marking books and preparing lessons for the following week. I love the fact that when I leave work I can switch off. Unfortunately for them teaching is one of the many professions in this world where that is a little harder to achieve.

 

[Cyrano]

You came across very clearly - I was just confused by Reid's analogy that, as managers in the LEA might once have been teachers, therefore they are still teachers - it seemed that he was using this argument to justify blaming the teachers

I think your post was very fair as well

Where did I say I blamed teachers? My remark was that I find it interesting that Education service and schools think of themselves seperate from the local authority.

Thankfully there are plenty of teachers and head-teachers that know that if they work with parents, that parents will work with them

 

[joolz1910]

Unfortunately for them teaching is one of the many professions in this world where that is a little harder to achieve.

This is very true of the good teachers. I teach more than 200 students every week - and I work part-time! I take time to get to know all of my students and I try to do my best by each of them. I can't just switch off at the end of the day (I'm not saying everyone else does!) or at the weekend. The kids I teach are really important to me.

....but I still support a parent's choice to take their child on a carefully considered holiday during term-time. My Headteacher would disagree and doesn't authorise any term-time holidays but, hey, he makes the rules, not me.

 

[2Tiggies]

My Headteacher would disagree and doesn't authorise any term-time holidays but, hey, he makes the rules, not me.

And for anyone who found the point I was trying to make a little ambiguous: this sums it up in a sentence.

There is more than one right way to do things - we each just have to find our own.

 

[howlongtillsummer?]

Yes our head doesn't authorise any term time holidays either. Used to - on completion of a written form. But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.

 

[joolz1910]

Yes our head doesn't authorise any term time holidays either. Used to - on completion of a written form. But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.

Although I think it's draconian, I can see why my Headteacher refuses to authorise term-time holidays. We have about 1700 kids and he must get loads of requests from parents - it would be time-consuming to investigate each request and grant permission on that basis.

Perhaps a fairer system would be to automatically authorise 10 days for students with 95% + attendance in the previous year. It would be easy to get those figures with SIMS registers, then anyone who didn't qualify could appeal and be authorised/declined individually.

 

[UKDEB]

But a memo went round last year to say that all holidays must be marked as unauthorised. As far as I know they now just add to absence quotas and when they reach a certain percentage (90% or lower present I think) they will be investigated by welfare.

As I've said in the past, whether an absence is registered as authorised or unauthorised matters not one jot to parents who just take their children out of school for one holiday a year. It matters to the school as they are measured on it, and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school (in as much as they can then be investigated by the authorities), but not to the likes of people posting here. My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent. It's your call, not that of the school. They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction. Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time. If you get a "fine" letter, either ignore it or challenge it. Unless your child plays truant, or you willfully refuse to send them to school having entered them into the system, you're doing nothing wrong. I've no doubt it must be infuriating to teachers and Head Teachers, but that's no reason to feel intimidated.

 

[wideeyes]

I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5 which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.

All are Flordia holidays were authorised though

 

[Cyrano]

My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent. It's your call, not that of the school. They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction. Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time.

I agree Deb that is exactly how I have played it

I know that in our case the Head-Teacher will only authorised term time leave in exception circumstances. Actually the head-teacher neither authorises nor refuses. They are given instructions from the Director of Education from the policies that the Councillors have approved.

 

[UKDEB]

I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5 which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.

Precisely what I was alluding to - it matters far more to the school that they don't have unauthorised absences (which is why your daughter's unauthorised absences miraculously appeared on her report as authorised). I don't care what they call them, as long as they don't try to make me feel guilty about it. They play on our fears as parents, but now my children are adults, what difference does it make to me or to them what the computer churned out as authorised or unauthorised on their reports?

 

[2Tiggies]

A
Perhaps a fairer system would be to automatically authorise 10 days for students with 95% + attendance in the previous year. It would be easy to get those figures with SIMS registers, then anyone who didn't qualify could appeal and be authorised/declined individually.

Now that makes good sense!

and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school

Sadly, this is where many of the stricter measures have stemmed from. It happens often. There are a couple of kids in DDs year who take term time holidays every term. Not a few days - I am talking 2 weeks and sometimes more.

What is sad is that both of these children have recently been moved into another class where they can work at a slower pace as they were no longer able to keep up in the class they were in. Do I think absences had something to do with it? Absolutely! While there is no black and white, there is a sensible balance in the approach and you can't assess it when the child is 5 years old and apply it throughout their school years. Things change and you need to review regularly.

I took out my DD for 5 days for DLP when she was 5 which was not authorized by the head teacher, however when we got her report she had 0 unauthorised attendance.

I had the same thing last year. Although I did write to the head teacher as to be fair, I had booked a year ahead and phoned the school to confirm the holidays for the dates of our trip. Having done so, I amended our booking to fall into what I was told would be the holiday period. Only to discover a few months later that it was incorrect, by which time I would have incurred an amendment fee. I raised this with her at the time. I got the usual letter, but her attendance record reflected 0 days absent.

All are Flordia holidays were authorised though

Serioulsy?

 

[wideeyes]

Serioulsy?

Yeah

 

[UKDEB]

Sadly, this is where many of the stricter measures have stemmed from.

Of course. I guess what I'm saying is that I neither seek, nor legally require, a school's approval to take my child out in term time. I understand why this is undoubtedly an unpopular stand-point from a teacher's point of view, but I feel equally as strongly about my right to decide, as a Head's desire for me to comply. If the law changes we have a whole different argument on our hands, but as things stand, it's my choice. People get confused between the law and this whole authorised/unauthorised absence thing. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, that's only an issue for the schools in the context we're talking about here.

 

[2Tiggies]

Of course. I guess what I'm saying is that I neither seek, nor legally require, a school's approval to take my child out in term time. I understand why this is undoubtedly an unpopular stand-point from a teacher's point of view, but I feel equally as strongly about my right to decide, as a Head's desire for me to comply. If the law changes we have a whole different argument on our hands, but as things stand, it's my choice. People get confused between the law and this whole authorised/unauthorised absence thing. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, that's only an issue for the schools in the context we're talking about here.

..... and I cannot argue any of the points you make here! I always find discussions in text are interesting. Without body language, facial expressions and tone of voice, it can be all too easy to misinterpret the message in the way it is intended to be conveyed. I am not referring either to your post, or any others in particular here - just a general observation that I am constantly aware of on this and other similar threads (read: potentially contraversial ). I am so pleased that this one has remained open, despite one or two "wobbly moments".

 

[katytrott]

I've really enjoyed this thread. My son started reception last Sept, so this whole debate is quite fresh and new with us!

My auntie in law is a retired head and we have had many a heated discussion with her. I can remember her quoting some figure (someone posted it on here earlier) about the huge no. of days a child is not at school as an argument against taking out in term time, but I remember thinking that was a bit strange as a lot of those were weekends when the family could not go anywhere.

My take on it is this: I remember as a child having awesome holidays with my family. Some of them were eductional, some were not - looking back, I don't think it mattered as the memories now are of the only 2 weeks in the year when my father was totally relaxed, chilled and a great laugh - a joy to be with. I will always treasure those times and do feel now, after having two kids of my own, that childhood isn't just about education. I think I have that feeling from reading too much Tom Sawyer as a kid, but also because I think we live in a society in which we are defined by how succesful we are career wise.

It really is the same now with my husband - our kids only truly see a totaly relaxed father when he is immersed in a different world, away from home. Also, I am starting to feel that our family is not going to run around our children's lives and their education. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to excuse them how ever much I want from school - but the odd few days at the end of term when they are young, to ensure my husband gets the break he deserves (I have just given up my nursing career to be with my kids), I do not have a problem with. The rest of the year will be spent running around them!

I think someone posted on here earlier about having a hunt around the dates and being flexible, meaning you can find something cheaper. I don't know about any other year as this is our first, but that has not been our experience this year. We have hunted with every possible company on every possible date during summer hols, and the price is still rediculous. That is just for flights as well, as we have parents in law villa for free. Last week, we were quoted 8 thousand pounds for 4 of us, with Virgin, in Aug, to Orlando, for flights alone!!!

Actually, hunting around different destinations (Europe) in Aug, didn't bring the price down that significantly, particularly when you price in accomadation which we don't normally have to pay.

My main beef is with the holiday companies who wack the prices up so high. This just seems so unfair - I mean, triple the price - crazy! It never used to go up so drastically when I was a kid (according to my father!) and what with them and the education authority, we could end up with a generation of kids who miss out on special family memories and the education of being in a different culture. Very sad!!

 

[wayneg]

My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent. It's your call, not that of the school.

Unfortunately not kept up with this thread as I am away but just spotted this comment, exactly what we have done when we took Matt out for 2 weeks each October. Sent a letter advising them of dates he would not be there. Always been given authorized absence. Glad we have had headteachers & teachers fully backing our trips.

 

[2Tiggies]

I saw Wayne's name on the right of the thread and thought "Oh no, he had to close it - and from all the way in the US ....."

 

[team harris]

I work in a school and have 2 DS of my own, so I see both sides of this.

Before I started working in a school, we did take DS' out of school for two weeks in October - they were then in Yrs 2 & 5. Our boys kept a diary whilst away and yes, you can argue that it is an educational trip.

Someone has said that your child can be ill and miss a few days from school - this happened to us, as our youngest DS had a herniotomy the following February, meaning he missed a total of four weeks school that year, which is over 10% of that year - not ideal in any situation.

I always thought that Yr5 was not really that important (SATs and 11+ a year away), but now seeing the changes in children that take place EVERY year, I would really think long and hard about this.

As said before too, do not ask your child's teacher for extra work, as 1). The child will not really be in any fit state to concentrate on school work and 2). Why should the teacher mark it, when it is additional work for them?

There is plenty for you to do out there where your child will learn without realising it, just don't put an educational label on it!

 

[iluvtot]

As I've said in the past, whether an absence is registered as authorised or unauthorised matters not one jot to parents who just take their children out of school for one holiday a year. It matters to the school as they are measured on it, and it matters (quite rightly) with respect to the parents who just don't care whether or not their kids are in school (in as much as they can then be investigated by the authorities), but not to the likes of people posting here. My advice is not to ask for permission, but simply to write to the school advising them that your child will be absent. It's your call, not that of the school. They can posturise all they like (and some Heads really play that card to the max), but they have no jurisdiction. Neither does the LEA with regards to those who have legitimate reasons for taking their children out of school in term time. If you get a "fine" letter, either ignore it or challenge it. Unless your child plays truant, or you willfully refuse to send them to school having entered them into the system, you're doing nothing wrong. I've no doubt it must be infuriating to teachers and Head Teachers, but that's no reason to feel intimidated.

I so agree Debbie I have written to the school each time, explaining the situation, and giving our dates. I have received the 'fine' letter, and have always challenged it. It makes me laugh because after having told them our dates, do they expect me to say "sorry, OK we won't go" Yeh, right!!
I always feel it is better to be honest. I have friends who say they would NEVER take their children out for a holiday; but then think it's ok to take the odd Friday/Monday when they are away for a weekend, or if the kids haven't got an inset day, and they want to get away early before the school hols begin. They always phone the kids in sick/doctors/dentist app; but hey! That's ok! All those odd days add up aswell!
Another thing, (I know this is a bit off topic), but has anyone else with more than 2 children noticed the huge hike in prices an extra(or more) child makes?
We looked at going to Europe, but to be honest, the difference in prices, compared to going to Florida, didn't make it worth the compromise.

Jules x

 

[joolz1910]

Unfortunately not kept up with this thread as I am away but just spotted this comment, exactly what we have done when we took Matt out for 2 weeks each October. Sent a letter advising them of dates he would not be there. Always been given authorized absence. Glad we have had headteachers & teachers fully backing our trips.

Yes, this is what I did too. I wrote to my children's Headteacher and told her that my two eldest children would be on holiday and gave her the dates. It was a matter of courtesy, (especially as DD2 was only 4 at the time) and I didn't really mind whether it was authorised or not. I got the standard 'we don't really approve of this' letter but the absences were authorised.

As I've said before, a week or so in one academic year is not going to ruin a child's life chances. Life is too short to worry about things like this.