School choice

That is ridiculous!
I personally believe that if you don't take part in the effort of the fundraising then you don't get the benefit of it.
To say I'm too busy so I want you to sort out our school too shows a very entitled attitude.

It isn't about entitlement. Some parents are indeed just too busy. The single mom working 3 jobs with no family around her is going to unfortunately too busy. The mom and dad working alternate shifts to make sure someone is always home but that the bills are also paid are going to often be too busy. We aren't talking parents who are too busy because they would rather go to yoga and book club then advocate for their kids. We are talking about the parents who desperately want to advocate and be there for their kids but can't if they also want to put food on the table, a roof over their head, and utilities running. There are a ton of these families all across America. They don't want someone else to fix their problem they just need a system that understands their problems and doesn't fault their kids for it.
 
It isn't about entitlement. Some parents are indeed just too busy. The single mom working 3 jobs with no family around her is going to unfortunately too busy. The mom and dad working alternate shifts to make sure someone is always home but that the bills are also paid are going to often be too busy. We aren't talking parents who are too busy because they would rather go to yoga and book club then advocate for their kids. We are talking about the parents who desperately want to advocate and be there for their kids but can't if they also want to put food on the table, a roof over their head, and utilities running. There are a ton of these families all across America. They don't want someone else to fix their problem they just need a system that understands their problems and doesn't fault their kids for it.

Why are things like art and sport classes, things that frankly are elective they help and make school better but are not required being treated differently from anything else though? The kids that have parents working 3 jobs to afford food also can't travel. Should your kids not be allowed to travel becuase their kids can't? That is the equivalent of what your saying. Travel has educational benefits and makes someone a more well rounded person just like art classses does so maybe we should ban your kids from being able to travel until every kid can travel. But since there isn't money for every kid to travel you just can't go.

It is absurd to me to stop SOME kids from having an amazing oppurtunity just because all kids can't. I'm sorry but the fact is life isn't fair and those kids that have parents that could fundraise and advocate succeeded in getting thigns for their children. I don't think we should tell parents that they can't secure private funds to give their kids something just because other places can't do that. A system that is taking things away from children just because other places can't have them is not solving any problems.
 
That is ridiculous!
I personally believe that if you don't take part in the effort of the fundraising then you don't get the benefit of it.
To say I'm too busy so I want you to sort out our school too shows a very entitled attitude.

It was a pretty nasty fight. They eventually settled on the plan to share equally since the alternative was to shut all "enrichment" programs down. In some ways it didn't matter if an individual parent participated or donated. Only a small fraction of parents did the fundraising, but all kids at school could participate. It just happened that two of their three elementary schools had substantial numbers to fundraise. They could get it to work since it was a small school district. It averaged about $44 per student. However, before the settlement, it didn't matter if a parent participated. The programs were available to all kids at a school regardless of parental participation. In any case, all their schools were top performing.

Contrast that to Oakland, California. The city has a rough reputation, but there are some affluent neighborhoods. The neighborhood elementary schools in those areas are top performing. They have a huge disparity with fundraising. However, in the poorer neighborhoods there are parent who would li,e to get their kids out of the cycle of poverty.
 
Why are things like art and sport classes, things that frankly are elective they help and make school better but are not required being treated differently from anything else though? The kids that have parents working 3 jobs to afford food also can't travel. Should your kids not be allowed to travel becuase their kids can't? That is the equivalent of what your saying. Travel has educational benefits and makes someone a more well rounded person just like art classses does so maybe we should ban your kids from being able to travel until every kid can travel. But since there isn't money for every kid to travel you just can't go.

It is absurd to me to stop SOME kids from having an amazing oppurtunity just because all kids can't. I'm sorry but the fact is life isn't fair and those kids that have parents that could fundraise and advocate succeeded in getting thigns for their children. I don't think we should tell parents that they can't secure private funds to give their kids something just because other places can't do that. A system that is taking things away from children just because other places can't have them is not solving any problems.

Where did I ever say travel or stop doing things out side of school because other kids can't? If you can afford to send your kids to private school or charter or whatever then so be it. What myself and the original poster were trying to point out is how schools and other children suffer in non-monetary ways by school choice. I didn't say anything like art and sports or whatever. I was talking about parental involvement and how it has been shown that even the worst schools can improve with help from the parents. So if all the parents who can transport their kids or pay for private transportation are given the ability to leave the school they are originally signed to then the school suffers in ways that are non-monetary. That was it.
 

Why are things like art and sport classes, things that frankly are elective they help and make school better but are not required being treated differently from anything else though? The kids that have parents working 3 jobs to afford food also can't travel. Should your kids not be allowed to travel becuase their kids can't? That is the equivalent of what your saying. Travel has educational benefits and makes someone a more well rounded person just like art classses does so maybe we should ban your kids from being able to travel until every kid can travel. But since there isn't money for every kid to travel you just can't go.

It is absurd to me to stop SOME kids from having an amazing oppurtunity just because all kids can't. I'm sorry but the fact is life isn't fair and those kids that have parents that could fundraise and advocate succeeded in getting thigns for their children. I don't think we should tell parents that they can't secure private funds to give their kids something just because other places can't do that. A system that is taking things away from children just because other places can't have them is not solving any problems.

Not all parents (even at the more affluent schools) fundraise, but all kids at those schools were eligible for the programs. I guess one of the arguments was that they were using school resources for these programs. It was also a small district, so they did end up with a compromise that most found acceptable. Those who fundraise end up "subsidizing" those who didn't, even at the same school.

Such programs are available outside of the schools too.
 
I like the idea of school choice. If a school is continuously failing, the students should have the right to go to a better school. Why keep the students locked in, required to go there, if they can't learn there? The vouchers give the children that can't afford to go the right and means to go to the better schools. That said, we don't have school vouchers or charter schools here. We are in a rural area with only district schools.
 
That type of idea may have appeal for many, and may even work successfully for quite a while. I wonder what happens when the demographics of a community may swing over time to a growing elderly population? Those types of issues arise from time to time in the metro Detroit area in relation to schools and many other community issues and the fallout tends to be messy.

Interesting point and I agree that can definitely become an issue. However, at least for now, Cobb County is a huge, fairly densely populated close-in county to Atlanta. Tons of families and tons of kids. That is why in my original post I said that it is a nice benefit when it lasts. I am assuming this could always raise the age of eligibility or eliminate the benefit altogether.
 
To me it's more about choices. Who gets to make that choice, currently I have to either A) send my child to the public school I'm designated for or B) pay private tuition plus taxes for the school I opt out of. As it is now I don't get an equal choice, I can opt out of the public school system but it comes at a great financial cost. All I want is for the taxes I pay to be used to educate my child, currently their not.


Your taxes are not being paid to educate YOUR child. Your taxes are being paid so that we can all live in an educated society. Whether you have children or not, you pay taxes toward the public school. So, it's not for educating "your" child, but all children. You have made a choice to send them to a school that costs tuition money. That choice is on you.

I get very irritated when parents say "I can't send my children to the free public school." You can. You choose not to. Don't expect the government to pay for your personal choices.

I didn't like the school situation I found myself in when we lived in California. It was fine for kindergarten and elementary, but would have been problematic beyond that. I had choices. I could have paid for private school. I could have moved to an area with better schools. I chose the latter. And, no, I didn't ask the government to reimburse me my moving expenses.
 
You have the option to live in a less expensive area, where the schools are not that great for less of a tax burden. Many retirees had children who went to public schools, so yes, they should be paying school taxes. Just off the top of my head, I am thinking a childless couple, who never had children who went to public school should get some kind of a tax break.


Why? We all live with the product of our public schools. Society as a whole benefits. I don't *personally* benefit from lots of stuff I pay taxes to support, but society as a whole does. That's the whole point of taxes....it's for the good of society, of which we are all members. Individual people benefit more or less from some things for which we pay taxes. And, using your logic, the converse should also be true. If you have say more than 2 kids, perhaps you should pay more in taxes? Can you imagine the outcry?
 
Your taxes are not being paid to educate YOUR child. Your taxes are being paid so that we can all live in an educated society. Whether you have children or not, you pay taxes toward the public school. So, it's not for educating "your" child, but all children. You have made a choice to send them to a school that costs tuition money. That choice is on you.

I get very irritated when parents say "I can't send my children to the free public school." You can. You choose not to. Don't expect the government to pay for your personal choices.

I didn't like the school situation I found myself in when we lived in California. It was fine for kindergarten and elementary, but would have been problematic beyond that. I had choices. I could have paid for private school. I could have moved to an area with better schools. I chose the latter. And, no, I didn't ask the government to reimburse me my moving expenses.
Your correct in that everyone's taxes are paid to educate all children. I don't see a problem with allowing for the choice to choose how or where those taxes pay for that education. The child gets educated and we're all still paying taxes, what changed?
 
Your correct in that everyone's taxes are paid to educate all children. I don't see a problem with allowing for the choice to choose how or where those taxes pay for that education. The child gets educated and we're all still paying taxes, what changed?

I guess that it tends to reduce the "critical mass" of funding for public schools and that it tends to benefit only the more affluent who can afford to make up the difference in private school tuition. In the meanwhile, often the better students (who enrich the schools) will often be pulled out of public schools where their presence improves the schools.
 
New schools aren't necessarily better. I live in an extremely fast growing area. New elementary schools are opening almost every year and the county can't keep up. While the buildings are new, many of the facilities are not up to the level of established schools. The libraries in particular have considerably fewer books. Books build up over time due to donations and book fair proceeds. Many times playgrounds also look a little bare until fundraisers put more equipment on them. I live in an extremely low tax state so other states might better equip their new schools than we do.

I can see that. Our libraries here are mostly donation-supported, so it would take time to build a decent collection, and the PTO fundraised for the playground equipment. But the things that come out of the district's pocket - how likely it is that the roof will leak or the boiler will break down, how efficiently the school can be heated/cooled, whether the building's wiring can handle the increased technology use, etc. - tend to be bigger problems and therefore bigger expenses in old schools. It is the same as owning a house - my century-old house is a money-pit in ways that my best friend's mid-century ranch and her sister's early-21st-century "McMansion" aren't. And as homeowners, we know that going in and make our choices accordingly. But school districts (especially shrinking or cash-strapped districts) have no choice, in many cases, but to deal with the buildings they have.

My comments reflected choosing one public school district over another. I did not factor in charters.

Fair enough. Most of my reservations about school choice are specific to charters - inter-district choice has far fewer downsides, since they can't just open up smack in the middle of a troubled district and siphon off the easiest kids to educate and because they have to meet the same accountability and service standards as the schools with which they are competing. Competition between districts is a level playing field. Competition between charters and traditional public school is a rigged game, and the students/families and communities too often end up the biggest losers.

I have to say this has been quite interesting for me to read. I'm in upstate NY and we don't have any vouchers or charter schools, pretty much just public or religious private. I went to public HS and private college and always said I'd send my kids to public school, I feel like I got a great education at mine. Here I am now doing what I swore I would never do: my kids are in a private catholic school. It was a VERY hard decision for me (I am agnostic and don't really agree/want my kids to be exposed to religion like this), but in the end it ended up being the best choice for my son who really needs the smaller school and more attention. They are also way more proactive when it comes to his IEP. I do wonder what would happen if we had more choices on where to send them.

I'm in the same place. I consider myself a strong supporter of public schools but two of my three attend private Catholic schools because their needs are better met in a smaller school environment. I had serious misgivings about the religious angle, because although I grew up Catholic I'm closer to agnostic as an adult and have some misgivings about organized religion as an institution, but ultimately decided that the academic concerns had to take priority. And like you, these are the only choices we have - a small rural public school district that lacks opportunities for a child like my older daughter, or the private Catholic schools which offer far more individualized learning. The closest secular private school is an hour away and there are no magnet schools in my area.

I do wonder what choices we'd have made if there were more options. We plan to move back to the city after the older two are away at college, so we'll be looking at the full range of school choice options for our youngest's high school years, and it'll be a more difficult choice to be sure.
 
We have a terrible school district that borders 2 good districts. You pick where you go to school by where you buy a house, you pay more taxes you go to a better school. You can choose to pay less taxes, live in a cheaper house in a bad area then you go to that school which is bad. Pay more, go to a better school. I don't think someone living in that area paying 2,000 in taxes should have the choice to go to a school where someone is paying 10,000 in taxes. Every year they catch a bunch of people using relatives addresses to send them to school in the next town over and they send them back to the district they are zoned for-not fair not paying taxes in that district and sending your kids there.

We wanted to send DD to the next school over because it's actually much closer to our house than the school she's assigned. I'd have been happy to cough up what that district charges for taxes (would have been about $2,000 per year for our house), but they wanted $7,000 per student as "tuition". Nope, out of our budget LOL
 
I guess that it tends to reduce the "critical mass" of funding for public schools and that it tends to benefit only the more affluent who can afford to make up the difference in private school tuition. In the meanwhile, often the better students (who enrich the schools) will often be pulled out of public schools where their presence improves the schools.
It could also put private tuition within reach of those that can't swing the full cost but could say manage half.
 
Your correct in that everyone's taxes are paid to educate all children. I don't see a problem with allowing for the choice to choose how or where those taxes pay for that education. The child gets educated and we're all still paying taxes, what changed?

A few things. So bear with me if this is long.

First, choice in any form diverts dollars from public schools which in turn reduces the available funding for educational expenditures. If a school's fixed expenses are 15% of the operating budget with 500 students, they'll eat up 30% of the total funding if enrollment falls to 250. Because those expenses - building and grounds upkeep, busing, etc. - are hard or impossible to cut, it is education and enrichment that suffer.

Second, some people have a philosophical or moral objection to public funding for religious schools, who would be the biggest recipients of voucher dollars. In my state, any voucher plan would have to clear the hurdle of amending the state constitution because right now it includes a prohibition on state funding for religious schools or organizations.

There is a similar issue at play with charters, only instead of it being funding religious concerns it is a question of whether public educational dollars should be going to profit-seeking enterprises that may prioritize investors' interests over those of the students.

Third, no existing voucher plan has proposed an amount that would fully cover the cost of private school. That makes sense, since public school per-pupil funding is generally lower than private school tuition. But it means that for a family to benefit from school vouchers they would have to have the means to make up the difference. It amounts to welfare for the middle class and fails to address the aspect of education most in need of improvement - the intersection of poverty and school quality.

Fourth, with the exception of choice between public districts, most school choice plans are to some degree discriminatory. The choices they make available are exempt from special ed and ESL mandates, so families of special needs or non-English-speaking children are excluded from the options available to their healthy, native-born peers. This further cripples the public schools, who are left with higher-than-expected percentages of students who require expensive educational supports and who are likely to struggle with performance on the all-important standardized tests that define public schools' success.
 
A few things. So bear with me if this is long.

First, choice in any form diverts dollars from public schools which in turn reduces the available funding for educational expenditures. If a school's fixed expenses are 15% of the operating budget with 500 students, they'll eat up 30% of the total funding if enrollment falls to 250. Because those expenses - building and grounds upkeep, busing, etc. - are hard or impossible to cut, it is education and enrichment that suffer.
They'll have to adjust, things change all the time. Since school money is allocated on a per child basis, it's no different than if we as a society simply had less children or more people elected to homeschool, private school their children without the school choice available.
Second, some people have a philosophical or moral objection to public funding for religious schools, who would be the biggest recipients of voucher dollars. In my state, any voucher plan would have to clear the hurdle of amending the state constitution because right now it includes a prohibition on state funding for religious schools or organizations.
I have philosophical and moral objections to things the gov already does and pays for so that's a bridge we have already crossed.
There is a similar issue at play with charters, only instead of it being funding religious concerns it is a question of whether public educational dollars should be going to profit-seeking enterprises that may prioritize investors' interests over those of the students.
Tax dollars already go to for profit-seeking enterprises such as private colleges, private hospitals, military contracts, etc.
Third, no existing voucher plan has proposed an amount that would fully cover the cost of private school. That makes sense, since public school per-pupil funding is generally lower than private school tuition. But it means that for a family to benefit from school vouchers they would have to have the means to make up the difference. It amounts to welfare for the middle class and fails to address the aspect of education most in need of improvement - the intersection of poverty and school quality.
Ok, I guess I miss the point your making here. We can't help middle class?
Fourth, with the exception of choice between public districts, most school choice plans are to some degree discriminatory. The choices they make available are exempt from special ed and ESL mandates, so families of special needs or non-English-speaking children are excluded from the options available to their healthy, native-born peers. This further cripples the public schools, who are left with higher-than-expected percentages of students who require expensive educational supports and who are likely to struggle with performance on the all-important standardized tests that define public schools' success.
I have no idea to the special needs aspect, so I can't comment. However, As to non-English speaking, I'll speak plainly, I don't care. Just being honest, I'm not going to slow down my child's education because a family migrated, then refuses to learn the common language.
 
Tax dollars already go to for profit-seeking enterprises such as private colleges, private hospitals, military contracts, etc.

FWIW, Private and For Profit are not the same thing. The govt has stripped education dollars from many for-profit schools, for good reason. Most private hospitals are also non-profit (and I could go on a rant about the issues of for-profit hospitals).
 
We have a terrible school district that borders 2 good districts. You pick where you go to school by where you buy a house, you pay more taxes you go to a better school. You can choose to pay less taxes, live in a cheaper house in a bad area then you go to that school which is bad. Pay more, go to a better school. I don't think someone living in that area paying 2,000 in taxes should have the choice to go to a school where someone is paying 10,000 in taxes. Every year they catch a bunch of people using relatives addresses to send them to school in the next town over and they send them back to the district they are zoned for-not fair not paying taxes in that district and sending your kids there.

So you're saying that good schools are only for those that can afford higher taxes (ie not poor) and live in the "good districts". If you have to live in a poorer district because that is all you can afford, then your children deserve to go to the schools in the "terrible school district"?
 
FWIW, Private and For Profit are not the same thing. The govt has stripped education dollars from many for-profit schools, for good reason. Most private hospitals are also non-profit (and I could go on a rant about the issues of for-profit hospitals).
In the same way I could go on a rant of ways the govt has issues, but I won't.
 
The county next to my county implemented school choice. It was the creme de la creme of choice complete with magnet schools and charter Schools. And on the good side they also now have the best two schools in the state and two of the better schools in the country. But that is the only good side. Unfortunately if you're not one of the privileged connected or well to do parents, the only chance your kid has of getting in one after the palm greasing goes on is a lottery with about 10 times the applicants that can get in. Unfortunately the rest of the schools have not improved as people said they would and with one exception the charter schools are lousy too. What were adequate schools for the most part but nothing special before are now some of the lowest ranked in the state. And now the result is coming into full view. The few well connected and better off parents were going to get theirs and forget everyone else. And ironically it's the same people in that county that lobby against tax increases to help the schools. Instead of no child left behind it's leave em all but mine behind. The most successful cons always take advantage of peoples greed. And school choice there was no exception. The very victims of school choice were all for it. They were sold a lie that if their school was bad, they could just send junior to a better one and magically all the schools would get better without any effort or taxes. Further, he could choose between the greatest music program since Mozart or the best stem program since the Apollo project. But the harsh reality is this. The best schools were already running full and and junior is going nowhere unless mom and dad have an in or they get the equivalent of a golden ticket in their chocolate bar. Meanwhile those with resources left junior's school and took their booster club donations with them making it worse. So as it turns out, school choice was never anything but a faux choice and a false hope. They were promised a utopia. What they got was a dystopia.

I am grateful that I got to observe school choice without being subject to it.
 
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