School choice

[mefordis]

Not being paranoid at all. It will happen. There are some people that only see the $s when it comes to their kids. Now is it enough to make a dent on budgets who knows. Also what about those who have already pulled their kids. Will they suddenly get the voucher money or what about "co-ops" of parents who all home school on the same program and meet to do other activities? Should the money go to the individual family or to the co-op?

I think they should get no money, but offered text books, sports and after school activities, maybe the option to go a partial day? Not sure but definitely no money - it scares me to think of some parents who would take their kid out of school to abuse the system for money.

 

[mefordis]

To those concerned over the possible use of vouchers to send kids to a private religious school. I guess I don't see the conflict, as I stated earlier I am sending my kids to private school and it's a Christian school. Why shouldn't I get the money due my child for schooling? I'm not forcing other children to attend Christian schooling, I'm not trying to indoctrinate them into believing. I'm just doing what I think is best for my children while also paying for a public school that I don't use and i would support a program that would allow me access to the school of my choosing. Who knows given the choice I might enroll them into a public school and save myself some $$$$.

Also- great conversation, I'm really enjoying it.

I agree with this.

 

[chicagodisneyfan]

I had the option of school choice because my mother taught in the district so we could go to any school inside the district as long as she picked up and dropped off. She did not exercise that because in her opinion what would it speak to the school she taught in if she pulled us out of it to go to a different one.

My mother was a principal with Chicago Public Schools.
My sister and I went to private schools. While she did everything in her power to make her school top-notch, she felt paying for a school gave us a better education.

 

[bcla]

I see a lawsuit in their future.

Oh - they're quite familiar with the court system. They were nearly shut down, but a judge ordered that they stay open. A lot of it had to do with how they paid for services from businesses owned by their top administrator.

 

[mefordis]

My mother was a principal with Chicago Public Schools.
My sister and I went to private schools. While she did everything in her power to make her school top-notch, she felt paying for a school gave us a better education.

Hey, i think if someone can afford private I don't blame them. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I just don't happen to have 60k laying around for both of my kids to attend.

 

[bjscheel]

The Minnesota stuff mentioned above sounds like Iowa, you can apply to open enroll to a different public school. We live in an area with many rural schools and mainly people open enroll for convenience, not because one school is so much better than the others. My kids are open enrolled. We live in the country and do everything in one town (work, church, daycare, preschool, shopping, etc.). The school in our district is in the opposite direction. It wasn't going to work out well to be home when the bus got there. If they went to school where I worked, they could go to their daycare after school, get to church on Wednesdays, etc. So we did that and I drove them every day. It has been so nice to have them just a few blocks from work, able to utilize the same daycare, and when my parents moved to town a block from school it was even better.

Now, the district we live in merged high schools with another town, and I am super happy that my DD18 is not doing her senior year in a different school 25 miles from home (and that DD15 doesn't have to travel up there for 3 years). Many of the kids from that district living on the south end decided to open enroll to the school my kids go to, or another one nearby because they were now closer than the school for their own district.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Do they have to take all kids - even those with extensive ieps? That is the population that often gets left behind. And if you live in an area without choice aren't you at a disadvantage?

Since you quoted me (3 pages back, this thread is moving fast), I'll answer:

Our home HS offers the IB program, which my DD13 is interested in. However, you can still attend there, even if you don't do the IB program. So yes, you could choose that school with an IEP in place--and, if appropriate, I imagine you could do the IB program, assuming you (the student) could manage the work load, even with your IEP. Similarly, the STEM program DS10 is interested in, is meant for pre-engineering and pre-med students. It's a mini-school within the school. Depending on the nature of the IEP required, some school choices might be better than others--one school emphasized collaborative learning and internships, which might work well with some students.

I would say that not having the choices could be a disadvantage, but it really depends on the district. In NH, we were in an excellent district--but it only had 1 HS (that included the vo-tech). There were many offerings for different types of classes, including lots of AP classes and the option to take classes at a couple local colleges. I don't feel that my two older children missed out by NOT having school choice. However, had we lived in NC for the past 20 or so years, it's very likely that I would have, eventually, 4 kids graduating from at least 3 different high schools. I'll actually still have that, but only because we moved after #2 graduated.

 

[wilkeliza]

My mother was a principal with Chicago Public Schools.
My sister and I went to private schools. While she did everything in her power to make her school top-notch, she felt paying for a school gave us a better education.

Oh I imagine if my mother could have afforded private school she would have sent us. She was actually a teacher's aid (working on becoming a teacher until she got sick) so that salary barely let her raise my brothers and I after our dad left let alone send us to private school. I actually got into a magnet school twice (once in 5th and then again in 7th) but she couldn't afford everything the scholarships didn't cover like transportation.

 

[PollyannaMom]

I think school choice increases the already-existing gap between students who are well-off and those what are not.

We already know that students whose families have the resources to expose them to things outside of school do better - partly because of follow-up to lessons, partly because of background experiences to connect the lessons to in the first place, and partly because of other resources like technology and simple things like more money for food.

Those same students who already have the above advantages are usually the ones in a position to take advantage of school choice. And the local school loses not only the money that "follows" them, but an even more important resource - their parents. These are the parents who are educated themselves, and know what to ask of their schools, the stay-at-home-moms who can come in and volunteer, the parents who can attend a school-board meeting feeling comfortable and like they belong, and knowing how to make themselves heard. If you lose these families, you lose not just their money, but their voices, and the school as a whole suffers.

We have public schools not because it's the most efficient method of educating the children in our households, but as a way to ensure that we live in an educated society, which benefits everyone, even those who don't have kids.

 

[Wendy31]

One issue that hasn't been brought up here is religion. We have a separation of church and state for a reason. In my view, taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for religious education, yet voucher systems would like to take my money and push it towards a religious belief I don't share. Like it or not, some of the big money and opinions that are pushing school choice are doing so because they'd like the state to pay for their children's religious education.

I see your point. However, along those same lines, my tax money has been going for years to public schools which teach some things w/ which I disagree due to my religious beliefs.

I think what MN has done sounds like what will be done across the country. The private schools don't want government vouchers or the government telling them what to do - they don't need it either.

I also agree w/ this. I think there will be many private religious schools who will not want the government vouchers. Once government money is accepted, then many schools fear the government can step in & tell them what to teach, how to teach, etc.

I frown upon the vouchers for homeschooling because I think it would be abused. People who have no intention of actually conducting real home schooling would see that money and withdraw their kid, just to make about 12k. Or am I being paranoid?

We homeschool. Our textbooks & various other materials cost us in the thousands per school year. Additionally, we attend a co-op & have semester & course fees. All that said, we'd be cautious about accepting any government money because we wouldn't want the government to then tell me what I have to teach - like Common Core, for example. In our state, homeschooling is regulated, & we have to submit attendance & a list of the textbooks/curricula we use each semester.

I see both sides to the "school choice" argument. Before we began homeschooling, our 2 older children attended a private school. My sister & I attended a private school, kindergarten through 12th grade, as did my DH & his brothers. So, our parents have spent many years paying taxes for public schools which we never attended.

That said, I think a well-educated society benefits us all, so, even though we haven't been involved in the public school system, public schools are important to me.

I agree that some really good students get "stuck" in really bad schools. The district for which we're zoned has some badly performing schools. I know several public school teachers, & they all complain about the disruptive/unruly kids, non-involved parents, and unsupportive administration. If all the good students & involved parents leave, then where does that leave the school? On the other hand, how it is fair if a good student gets stuck in that kind of environment?

For the most part (there are some exceptions), students who attend the better schools have more advantages & opportunities.

I think "school choice" would end up widening the gap between lower income families & the middle to upper-middle income families. The problem is not just w/ the inner city schools; it's the rural schools too.

I also wonder about the teachers. How then do the teachers get sorted? As a school superintendent, do you put your best teachers at your best schools & leave your not-so-good teachers at the under-performing schools from where the good students are making the choice to leave anyway? And, then, do those under-performing schools just get worse & worse?

However, I do like giving parents more power when it comes to their children's education.

 

[diznygirl]

Parents already have power over their child's education. The real issue here is money. Some people have it, some people don't, and some people want more of it. Vouchers do not help a public school system at all. But homeschoolers will want their kickback, and charter school corporations will fight for your kickback, and religious schools as well if they can get that approved.

 

[Wendy31]

Parents already have power over their child's education. The real issue here is money. Some people have it, some people don't, and some people want more of it. Vouchers do not help a public school system at all. But homeschoolers will want their kickback, and charter school corporations will fight for your kickback, and religious schools as well if they can get that approved.

While the real issue may be money, I disagree that everyone will be clamoring for the vouchers..

Some homeschoolers and some religious schools will want the vouchers, but not all.

In various homeschooling circles, it's being discussed, & there are many that have concerns & have said they would not accept any vouchers. At this point, I don't think we would.

Several years ago, the voucher issue came up at the private school where our children were attending because one of the candidates in a local representative election was for school choice vouchers. The administration of this particular private school said that the school would be against accepting money from vouchers. And I know there are other religious schools that feel the same.

 

[Gracie09]

Simply the process, NOT the efficacy. Different ideas entirely.

Process and efficacy are intertwined. If the process of setting up the schools has a disparate impact on the children that are poor or disabled then it effects the efficacy.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

Parents already have power over their child's education. The real issue here is money. Some people have it, some people don't, and some people want more of it. Vouchers do not help a public school system at all. But homeschoolers will want their kickback, and charter school corporations will fight for your kickback, and religious schools as well if they can get that approved.

To me it's more about choices. Who gets to make that choice, currently I have to either A) send my child to the public school I'm designated for or B) pay private tuition plus taxes for the school I opt out of. As it is now I don't get an equal choice, I can opt out of the public school system but it comes at a great financial cost. All I want is for the taxes I pay to be used to educate my child, currently their not.

 

[sets14]

I think the issue of school choice is a red herring or as someone above said, a band-aid over the real problems in education. You can shuffle kids around, pour money into charter schools, private schools, etc but until we address the fundamental education issues in this country, it won't be a real solution. As a high school teacher with 14 years experience, a master's in secondary ed policy, and two kids attending public school here are my thoughts:

1. We need to get the federal government and even state government out of the business of education- that is what it has become, a business. And a lucrative and poorly run one at that. We need to return control of curriculum, discipline, hiring, etc back to the local communities. People in the local area know what their kids need- and school boards need to have an equal representation of educators and community members making decisions. I would not go into a hospital and tell a surgeon how to do their job, I don't need someone with absolutely no educational experience making decisions for me and my schools.

2. We need to take the money being poured into school choice and use it to bring back vocational programs, expand virtual schooling options, develop partnerships with institutions of higher learning, and build and staff after school programs to support student success. The educational world today is VASTLY different, even from that of a decade ago. Old strategies, methodologies, and expectations just don't work for our students.

3. We need to expand our parental support systems, especially in low income areas. I am not talking about welfare. I am talking about running transportation at alternate times to help kids stay for tutoring, having transportation to pick up parents to come to open houses or conferences, having money to pay for staff to watch siblings while parents attend meetings, expanding the school nurses to help care for sick children and families, expanding food pantries to help fill hungry bellies, building laundry rooms in schools so kids have clean clothes to wear, hiring more social workers to work with families, etc. I work in a school that is 100% free and reduced lunch. 100%. Every student at my high school of 900 pays $0 for breakfast and lunch. I have students who have worn the exact same clothes every day for a semester because that is all the clothing they have. I have students who have had roaches crawl out of their book bags in the middle of class. How focused a child is in school when they don't even know when they can next wash the shirt they are wearing and they know they need to wear it again tomorrow? When I talk with parents, there are a few that don't care about their child's education. For the majority of them, they care deeply but the basic acts of working low paying jobs while caring for multiple children, often as single parents means they don't have the supports they need to do what they so desperately want to do for their children. I have listened to mother's cry on the phone because they want better for their kids. Most of my students don't have internet at home, and living in a rural community our options are few to begin with. So how do we expect to educate technologically literate students when they don't even have a computer or internet? Sending them to a new school won't fix any of that.

I can go on and on, but my point is- you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Vouchers, choice, testing, it's all just lipstick.

 

[Wendy31]

I think the issue of school choice is a red herring or as someone above said, a band-aid over the real problems in education. You can shuffle kids around, pour money into charter schools, private schools, etc but until we address the fundamental education issues in this country, it won't be a real solution. As a high school teacher with 14 years experience, a master's in secondary ed policy, and two kids attending public school here are my thoughts:

1. We need to get the federal government and even state government out of the business of education- that is what it has become, a business. And a lucrative and poorly run one at that. We need to return control of curriculum, discipline, hiring, etc back to the local communities. People in the local area know what their kids need- and school boards need to have an equal representation of educators and community members making decisions. I would not go into a hospital and tell a surgeon how to do their job, I don't need someone with absolutely no educational experience making decisions for me and my schools.

2. We need to take the money being poured into school choice and use it to bring back vocational programs, expand virtual schooling options, develop partnerships with institutions of higher learning, and build and staff after school programs to support student success. The educational world today is VASTLY different, even from that of a decade ago. Old strategies, methodologies, and expectations just don't work for our students.

3. We need to expand our parental support systems, especially in low income areas. I am not talking about welfare. I am talking about running transportation at alternate times to help kids stay for tutoring, having transportation to pick up parents to come to open houses or conferences, having money to pay for staff to watch siblings while parents attend meetings, expanding the school nurses to help care for sick children and families, expanding food pantries to help fill hungry bellies, building laundry rooms in schools so kids have clean clothes to wear, hiring more social workers to work with families, etc. I work in a school that is 100% free and reduced lunch. 100%. Every student at my high school of 900 pays $0 for breakfast and lunch. I have students who have worn the exact same clothes every day for a semester because that is all the clothing they have. I have students who have had roaches crawl out of their book bags in the middle of class. How focused a child is in school when they don't even know when they can next wash the shirt they are wearing and they know they need to wear it again tomorrow? When I talk with parents, there are a few that don't care about their child's education. For the majority of them, they care deeply but the basic acts of working low paying jobs while caring for multiple children, often as single parents means they don't have the supports they need to do what they so desperately want to do for their children. I have listened to mother's cry on the phone because they want better for their kids. Most of my students don't have internet at home, and living in a rural community our options are few to begin with. So how do we expect to educate technologically literate students when they don't even have a computer or internet? Sending them to a new school won't fix any of that.

I can go on and on, but my point is- you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig. Vouchers, choice, testing, it's all just lipstick.

I agree for the most part. However, regarding your first 2 points -

Yes, local communities know what their kids need.

In some rural communities, though, I'm not sure those that sit on the school boards are that much more educated than the students themselves - in some school systems - some, not all. Our school system is on a county system. I'm thinking of one particular rural county, & the school board is very "good 'ol boy" & no one is interested in any of the newer technologies or methodologies - "This is the way it's always been done, & this is the way we're gonna do it." It's small town politics, & no one new w/ newer ideas is ever voted onto the school board. And the community is the type where you're born there, you go to school there, &, most likely, you end up living & working there for the rest of your life. The students don't graduate highly educated & many don't go on to college. It's a self-perpetuating system, & I know there are lots of other communities that are similar.

And I'd like to see the federal government take a big step back from education. However, a family who lives in one state should be able to move w/ their children to another state & their children should be on "grade level" in their new home state. One thing federal government does is ensure minimum "across the board" standards for each grade level.

 

[sets14]

I am having trouble quoting on my phone but to your last point Wendy31- I think the idea that the federal government maintains a set standard is actually false. Each state determines what they consider " proficient" and what courses constitute math, science, etc. For example, while the government might say you need X math credits, what those are can vary greatly, meaning students really aren't anywhere near a "standard". At my school for example, taking the business class personal finance counts as a math credit. Students don't need algebra, algebra 2, geometry, trig like they might in another state.

 

[Julie's Haircut]

I'm all for the voucher system. I love that other people will be paying for my daughters' tuition at Satan's School for Girls.

 

[Wendy31]

I am having trouble quoting on my phone but to your last point Wendy31- I think the idea that the federal government maintains a set standard is actually false. Each state determines what they consider " proficient" and what courses constitute math, science, etc. For example, while the government might say you need X math credits, what those are can vary greatly, meaning students really aren't anywhere near a "standard". At my school for example, taking the business class personal finance counts as a math credit. Students don't need algebra, algebra 2, geometry, trig like they might in another state.

My DD would be delighted if she could use Persl Finance for one of her math credits! LOL!

When I was talking about the standards, I was talking more about the elementary levels & not the later high school school classes where everyone starts branching out in different courses & tracks. 3rd grade math in Alabama should have the same scope & sequence as 3rd grade math in Ohio, for instance.

But I realize I could be wrong about "across the board" standards since I haven't been involved in public schools. It's quite possible I don't know what I'm talking about! LOL!

 

[trip]

Here's a question for those that want the tax money to follow their child. What about childless couples or retirees? They have no children so should they have to pay for other children?