School choice

[mefordis]

Exactly. Not that they care. These are the same people who don't actually believe in a separate of church and state.

It should be noted that there will be a push for these vouchers to go to Charter schools. Charter schools don't have to follow school district guidelines. And are privately run. So this is a just a another way to privatize a public service. Someone is going to be making money off this.

But if the charter school is not doing well, no one will want to attend and it will close. It won't be propped up with state and federal funding.

 

[cabanafrau]

Michigan is a case study of how to not do school choice. Nola actually did it well, but that was not until after Katrina when they basically started from scratch. Even there are large disparities.

I made no comments on the efficacy of school choice in Michigan, or school choice overall. I don't think that topic can be addressed here.

 

[bcla]

And if vouchers are used for grade and high schools with a religious affiliation, how is that different than federal financial aid, and grants, and loans that are waived, and other types of aid going to colleges with religious affiliations? I guesws there should be none for any student who wishes to attend Notre dame, BYU, SMU, Jewish universities, etc. So, if we take this thought, we should penalize those students who want a religious education in favor of those who don't. If you want a religious education, you don't get to use your tax choice--you only use it if you choose no religion. Do you not see discrimination here. If there is choice--which I believe is a good thing, as it brings some market principles to the public education system--

Religion affiliated schools are a choice. Why should anybody care if the tax money that was going to be spent on a student at public school is instead used by that family at a religious backed school. You don't pay any more for that student.

I went to a Catholic graduate school. Our curriculum didn't really include any religion. I did take one undergraduate class and asked a few of my classmates what kind of requirement they had regarding religion, and the only thing was a couple of religious studies classes to graduate. Those classes weren't about religious indoctrination. They could be on the study of eastern religions or comparative religion. I could have taken similar classes at my public undergraduate school.

Now I did got to a Catholic elementary school for a few years, and there was definitely religious indoctrination. There was a mandatory mass for all students on the first Friday of each month. We were required to join in prayer every morning, and there was a bit of Catholic studies at the end of the day. The one thing I remember clearly was one day when the teacher was going over other religions, stating that "They have a right to their beliefs, but they're wrong."

 

[bcla]

But if the charter school is not doing well, no one will want to attend and it will close. It won't be propped up with state and federal funding.

Define "doing well". There is a top performing group of charter schools in Oakland called the American Indian Model Schools. The original idea was as a place for kids of native ancestry and an environment to learn their culture. That was totally scrapped in favor of a rigorous academic track. Most of the students are Asian kids. They have a lot of controversy over their leadership, with the guy in charge accused of being racist and using inappropriate language. I'd include a link to their Wikipedia entry, but it contains some language that may not be appropriate.

We're looking into a charter school in another county. They're required to select based on a lottery system. The lottery is weighted to give preferences to students with siblings already there and to residents of the county. It's chartered by the county and not city. I'm not so sure of it though.

 

[Gracie09]

I made no comments on the efficacy of school choice in Michigan, or school choice overall. I don't think that topic can be addressed here.

You started the passage I quoted with I am from Michigan and sat on a school choice committee.... So you did make a comment regarding school choice in Michigan.

 

[mefordis]

Define "doing well". There is a top performing group of charter schools in Oakland called the American Indian Model Schools. The original idea was as a place for kids of native ancestry and an environment to learn their culture. That was totally scrapped in favor of a rigorous academic track. Most of the students are Asian kids. They have a lot of controversy over their leadership, with the guy in charge accused of being racist and using inappropriate language. I'd include a link to their Wikipedia entry, but it contains some language that may not be appropriate.

We're looking into a charter school in another county. They're required to select based on a lottery system. The lottery is weighted to give preferences to students with siblings already there and to residents of the county. It's chartered by the county and not city. I'm not so sure of it though.

Well, since charter schools are optional, I'd think "not doing well" would mean students are pulling out and going elsewhere. With fewer students they would have fewer dollars to pay teachers and run their school. That would mean they would have to close, right?

The school you mention sounds like there are students who want to go there.

 

[mnrose]

School choice is fine, if it's limited to your choice of PUBLIC schools which adhere to basic minimum standards, and must accept all applicants to the school. What I think many people mean by "school choice" is I can choose public or private (even religious schools) and have them paid by the government. I can go to a school which doesn't have to "deal with" special ed kids or kids otherwise deemed undesirable.

That kind of choice would be horrible for the concept of public education and will result in a two tier system with only the poor and special ed kids left in "public" schools.

Minnesota has a fully implemented school choice system. Your dollars follow you to ANY public school (or public charter school) you like, so long as you figure out how to get your kid to the school (free bussing applies only when you live within the boundaries of that district). It has caused all public schools to "up their game" as they know (particularly in urban and suburban areas) that you can choose an adjacent district if they don't perform well. No money is "lost" to public education.

I support fully what Minnesota has done. I do not support taxpayer dollars paying for private or "for profit" education.

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

"School choice" is really a very wide-spectrum.

In my district, though, "school choice" is very much an integral part of the regular public school system. In addition to the "home school" we also have several magnet and contract schools. Those schools are still public schools, and still have to follow the regulations of the public schools (and many of them are also some kids' home schools). The district actively uses the magnet model to adjust enrollment trends - so schools that are underenrolled or under performing are typically the ones with the best magnet programs so that more better educated/higher SES families go there, contributing to an improved overall school environment and evening out enrollment.
More importantly, the magnet programs offer a variety of educational opportunities to best meet a variety of educational needs - hopefully allowing more kids to have a really awesome public school experience that best meets their needs.
We also have public charter schools that are specifically located in areas that had been over-enrolled, so they were approved as a key component in managing the growing student population.

The school choice program began 7 years ago here, and public school enrollment has sky-rocketed since then, partly due to population growth, but more due to families going to the public schools who had previously sent their kids to private schools.

That is also how it works in my county. My DD goes to a Specialty Center within her high school, which is not our zoned HS. She had to apply and be accepted to the program. Her high school is in an older transient area, and it was losing enrollment year after year as folks moved out to the latest new developments on the edges of our county. Now the HS has 3 different specialty programs (Language Immersion, IB and Dual Enrollment). Smart motivated kids with involved families have flocked to this once struggling school and revitalized it for all the students who attend. It is the most culturally diverse school in the 4 county and 2 city systems in our area.

 

[mefordis]

School choice is fine, if it's limited to your choice of PUBLIC schools which adhere to basic minimum standards, and must accept all applicants to the school. What I think many people mean by "school choice" is I can choose public or private (even religious schools) and have them paid by the government. I can go to a school which doesn't have to "deal with" special ed kids or kids otherwise deemed undesirable.

That kind of choice would be horrible for the concept of public education and will result in a two tier system with only the poor and special ed kids left in "public" schools.

Minnesota has a fully implemented school choice system. Your dollars follow you to ANY public school (or public charter school) you like, so long as you figure out how to get your kid to the school (free bussing applies only when you live within the boundaries of that district). It has caused all public schools to "up their game" as they know (particularly in urban and suburban areas) that you can choose an adjacent district if they don't perform well. No money is "lost" to public education.

I support fully what Minnesota has done. I do not support taxpayer dollars paying for private or "for profit" education.

I think what MN has done sounds like what will be done across the country. The private schools don't want government vouchers or the government telling them what to do - they don't need it either.

 

[mnrose]

One issue that hasn't been brought up here is religion. We have a separation of church and state for a reason. In my view, taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for religious education, yet voucher systems would like to take my money and push it towards a religious belief I don't share. Like it or not, some of the big money and opinions that are pushing school choice are doing so because they'd like the state to pay for their children's religious education.

I wonder how they will feel about the government dollars going toward Islamic schools? Hmmmm.

 

[mefordis]

Are there any charter schools that offer partial days, I'm wondering? For example, if someone wants to send their kid for the academics, but the extras (lunch, recess, phys ed, art, music) gets accomplished on their own, through activities. I think it's an interesting concept to have an alternate schedule for those students who don't seek the extra 3 hours or so that don't address language arts, math, science.

 

[mnrose]

I think what MN has done sounds like what will be done across the country. The private schools don't want government vouchers or the government telling them what to do - they don't need it either.

And, what we've done makes perfect sense. But, even here, there are forces pushing to allow the public dollars to go to ALL private schools, including religious schools, and they'd still be "exempt" from the rules that otherwise apply to public schools. This is what I fear is going on on a broader scale. Ours is NOT a voucher system. It is a system where the tax dollars follow the student....public schools (whether conventional or charter) tally up their enrollment, and get funding based on that from the state. Parents are not involved. No vouchers. I keep hearing about "vouchers" which can even be applied to "home school." Uh. No. Just no.

 

[mefordis]

And, what we've done makes perfect sense. But, even here, there are forces pushing to allow the public dollars to go to ALL private schools, including religious schools, and they'd still be "exempt" from the rules that otherwise apply to public schools. This is what I fear is going on on a broader scale. Ours is NOT a voucher system. It is a system where the tax dollars follow the student....public schools (whether conventional or charter) tally up their enrollment, and get funding based on that from the state. Parents are not involved. No vouchers. I keep hearing about "vouchers" which can even be applied to "home school." Uh. No. Just no.

I frown upon the vouchers for homeschooling because I think it would be abused. People who have no intention of actually conducting real home schooling would see that money and withdraw their kid, just to make about 12k. Or am I being paranoid?

 

[bcla]

Well, since charter schools are optional, I'd think "not doing well" would mean students are pulling out and going elsewhere. With fewer students they would have fewer dollars to pay teachers and run their school. That would mean they would have to close, right?

The school you mention sounds like there are students who want to go there.

The guy in charge was basically a dictator. He basically did things (and got aways with them) that would get any public school administrator fired on the spot. He referred to his black students as "darkies". He also had a political bent that he wasn't shy about introducing into the school. His name is Ben Chavis. They were accused of basically driving out students who didn't improve the test scores, even though their charter didn't allow them to exclude students. Some minority kids were told there was no room, even though white kids were still being accepted.

For the most part it's self-selective. It's working primarily because the parents are OK with how their kids are treated.

 

[mefordis]

Vouchers for private school: I'm guessing the vouchers would amount to something like 12k - 15k per student. That would cover about half of private school tuition around here - which is 30k per year.

 

[mefordis]

The guy in charge was basically a dictator. He basically did things (and got aways with them) that would get any public school administrator fired on the spot. He referred to his black students as "darkies". He also had a political bent that he wasn't shy about introducing into the school. His name is Ben Chavis. They were accused of basically driving out students who didn't improve the test scores, even though their charter didn't allow them to exclude students. Some minority kids were told there was no room, even though white kids were still being accepted.

For the most part it's self-selective. It's working primarily because the parents are OK with how their kids are treated.

I see a lawsuit in their future.

 

[3 MEN AND A BOAT]

To those concerned over the possible use of vouchers to send kids to a private religious school. I guess I don't see the conflict, as I stated earlier I am sending my kids to private school and it's a Christian school. Why shouldn't I get the money due my child for schooling? I'm not forcing other children to attend Christian schooling, I'm not trying to indoctrinate them into believing. I'm just doing what I think is best for my children while also paying for a public school that I don't use and i would support a program that would allow me access to the school of my choosing. Who knows given the choice I might enroll them into a public school and save myself some $$$$.

Also- great conversation, I'm really enjoying it.

 

[wilkeliza]

I frown upon the vouchers for homeschooling because I think it would be abused. People who have no intention of actually conducting real home schooling would see that money and withdraw their kid, just to make about 12k. Or am I being paranoid?

Not being paranoid at all. It will happen. There are some people that only see the $s when it comes to their kids. Now is it enough to make a dent on budgets who knows. Also what about those who have already pulled their kids. Will they suddenly get the voucher money or what about "co-ops" of parents who all home school on the same program and meet to do other activities? Should the money go to the individual family or to the co-op?

 

[wilkeliza]

Are there any charter schools that offer partial days, I'm wondering? For example, if someone wants to send their kid for the academics, but the extras (lunch, recess, phys ed, art, music) gets accomplished on their own, through activities. I think it's an interesting concept to have an alternate schedule for those students who don't seek the extra 3 hours or so that don't address language arts, math, science.

Not sure but in some (if not most) states if you home school you can also partially enroll kids in jr. high and high school so they can play sports, take part in theater, or take part in band.

 

[cabanafrau]

You started the passage I quoted with I am from Michigan and sat on a school choice committee.... So you did make a comment regarding school choice in Michigan.

Simply the process, NOT the efficacy. Different ideas entirely.