Say Good Bye to Maelstrom....A 'Frozen' Ride is Definite

[wallrock]

I admit, this is where I am having a hard time grasping the resistance from the "against" camp. To me, while very eloquently stated, sounds an awful lot like a temper tantrum of the inner child within all of us. Put in much more simplistic terms, as I understand it, the crux of this resistance boils down to: Why are they taking part of my playground away and giving it to the kids? Don't the smaller kids already have a big enough playground in the MK?

I couldn't agree more that several areas in Epcot need attention more than the WS. That said, it is impossible to argue they should have randomly dropped a Frozen attraction in another part of the park when there is such an obvious connection to the Norway pavilion. As much as I would love to see Disney do something ground breaking and original in Epcot, you can't ignore Frozen will bring a significant boost to the park and take some of the pressure off TT and Soarin (at least short term even if the ride re-do stinks).

I see no reason why Frozen and the WS can't coexist. Sure, the dynamics of the WS may shift away from a primarily adult focus to more of a family experience. The family experience is what WDW is about. Blending Frozen into the WS makes perfect sense to me just like characters making their appearances in their related countries. I can see how introducing more family oriented activities into the WS may change someones experience when they are trying to drink themselves around the world or even how it could effect the atmosphere of F&W; but, I think the family experience is why most people go to WDW in the first place. Times change and the original concept of the WS is a thing of the past. Keeping it segregated as an adults only experience isn't practical and it certainly doesn't mean it will turn into "Magic Kingdom - South".

It's interesting that you're using a temper tantrum/child analogy instead of referencing the real reason that I stated with the theme park concept. Is it somehow because there is a seething towards the belief that there are those of us that disagree with the 'Disney is always right' ideology, so therefore we must be throwing a fit of equal proportions?

Going with your statement of the obvious connection between Frozen and Norway, then why not place a Peter Pan attraction in the UK? Why not place a Snow White attraction in Germany? Why not place Aladdin in Morocco? Just because there is a geographic resemblance in a film of fantasy doesn't always mean that it needs to be translated to a place that, while watered down and 'Disneyfied', is rooted in reality? And a family experience doesn't always have to be talking snowmen, a genie jumping out of a bottle or a boy that refuses to grow up and can fly. Why can't the family experience include different aspects of education and/or entertainment? Different strokes for different folks.

World Showcase is far from being an adults only place. If it were, then a sign stating 'no one under 21' would be placed there. That separate but equal family experience definition should be just as welcome and available there as it is in the Magic Kingdom...or Hollywood Studios...or Animal Kingdom.

 

[skier_pete]

Wdwmagic has a handful of very credible sources that get things right a lot. for example frozen summer fun, maelstrom redo, potter, and more were all on there months prior to announcement. The rumor for maelstrom was posted in May and is now true no one else had the rumor prior to that. The spirit who posted that rumor has a long track record with getting things right. He has most recently said Tokyo is getting a big frozen attraction with new ride technology along with a restaurant and Im sure a meet and greet. SO this is more than just a ride its a frozen land almost that will cost 450 million.

OK - good point on the credibility of the source. Though I still would be surprised if anyone having high enough access to budget numbers would have the guts to risk their job posting anonymously on a message board. Though I would agree the Spirit has a good track record - it is NOT 100%.

These two quotes are very contradictory. In my opinion, CleSteve's point about spending significant resources on "crowd-control" measures is spot-on. I also think the existing Norway pavilion will "spill over" into the empty lot next to Mexico, as I see no other option for accommodating the massive crowds that will be flocking to this pavilion (at least for the first year, until popularity dies)...

If that turns out to be the case, and they only plan to dedicate $75M to the project, I think we'd be lucky to even get the cardboard cutouts. I do agree that it is wayyyy to early to carve any of this in stone, but if I were a bettin' man, my money would be on the following:

• Minimal budget allocation. Disney has not proven otherwise on other, recent "makeover" projects. I bet there is some merit to the $75M figure.
• The project will expand into the empty lot next door. I see precious few alternatives for accommodating the future crowd levels coming to this pavilion.
• Majority of funds will be spent on expanding into the next lot. Included in this lot expansion portion of the project will be a massive gift shop as part of the exit.
• Minimal funds will be spent on the ride itself. It will basically be the same boat ride, only Frozen themed. I'm thinking Imagination-type makeover...

Call your bookies now...

My point about minimal exterior work is regarding the facade. TLM was a TON of faux Rock work and pathways and external queue area. My guess is they will use the same facade entrance in Norway, but expand the queue internally. Then they will likely have people exit through the gift shop, but may make it so there is an additional exit behind Kringla bakery. None of this would be cause for very much facade work.

I agree with most of your assessment, though. I think it's very likely the ride layout itself remains exactly the same. Here's hoping they detail at least a portion of the budget to some impressive effects.

Even though I've been defending this move by Disney, I am not pretending I think this is going to be some spectacular new ride. I am expecting a standard Disney Dark ride, though possibly made a little better than usual by the fact it will use a boat delivery system. (The only thing that would genuinely surprise me is if they didn't use the existing track system.)

 

[mvk]

I don't think the empty lot will be where riders exit, as it would put them right back onto the promenade before the ride, all the while people are heading up the promenade towards the pavilion to enter the ride. I would guess if they utilize the empty area, it would be preshow/queue & M/G, with the exit into the Pavilion where the gift shops and restaurant already reside.

That is, assuming most people enter the WS clockwise, which would probably happen even more once the attraction is open.

Placing the attraction entrance/queue in the lot prior to Norway would also help separate Arendelle from Norway a bit.

 

[LaidBackDad]

It's interesting that you're using a temper tantrum/child analogy instead of referencing the real reason that I stated with the theme park concept. Is it somehow because there is a seething towards the belief that there are those of us that disagree with the 'Disney is always right' ideology, so therefore we must be throwing a fit of equal proportions?

Going with your statement of the obvious connection between Frozen and Norway, then why not place a Peter Pan attraction in the UK? Why not place a Snow White attraction in Germany? Why not place Aladdin in Morocco? Just because there is a geographic resemblance in a film of fantasy doesn't always mean that it needs to be translated to a place that, while watered down and 'Disneyfied', is rooted in reality? And a family experience doesn't always have to be talking snowmen, a genie jumping out of a bottle or a boy that refuses to grow up and can fly. Why can't the family experience include different aspects of education and/or entertainment? Different strokes for different folks.

World Showcase is far from being an adults only place. If it were, then a sign stating 'no one under 21' would be placed there. That separate but equal family experience definition should be just as welcome and available there as it is in the Magic Kingdom...or Hollywood Studios...or Animal Kingdom.

I'll be the first to admit it. I still like Kool-Aid. The thing is, there are plenty of different varieties. In most cases I'm guzzling the "Disney doesn't have imagination anymore" and "I'm not getting as much value for my money anymore" flavors with you guys. In this case, Disney is sticking with it does best and what has always been its bread and butter, family entertainment. Yes, I like the idea of a slippery slope leading to other rides or attractions in all of the other pavilions that have some tie with an existing or future movie. That would likely spark more interest in kids learning about the different counties around the world. Yes, when I was a kid I also had to walk to school uphill both ways, it was always raining or snowing and the wind was always blowing in my face. Problem is kids learn differently today than we did and will still learn about different cultures even if it is through Disney colored glassed.

 

[clsteve]

These two quotes are very contradictory. In my opinion, CleSteve's point about spending significant resources on "crowd-control" measures is spot-on. I also think the existing Norway pavilion will "spill over" into the empty lot next to Mexico, as I see no other option for accommodating the massive crowds that will be flocking to this pavilion (at least for the first year, until popularity dies)...

If that turns out to be the case, and they only plan to dedicate $75M to the project, I think we'd be lucky to even get the cardboard cutouts. I do agree that it is wayyyy to early to carve any of this in stone, but if I were a bettin' man, my money would be on the following:

• Minimal budget allocation. Disney has not proven otherwise on other, recent "makeover" projects. I bet there is some merit to the $75M figure.
• The project will expand into the empty lot next door. I see precious few alternatives for accommodating the future crowd levels coming to this pavilion.
• Majority of funds will be spent on expanding into the next lot. Included in this lot expansion portion of the project will be a massive gift shop as part of the exit.
• Minimal funds will be spent on the ride itself. It will basically be the same boat ride, only Frozen themed. I'm thinking Imagination-type makeover...

Call your bookies now...

I'm only getting 1:2 from my bookie. PM me if you're getting better odds.

However, he is giving me a 5:1 prop bet on an Olaf Spinner in the empty lot to help manage overflow if you want some action on that.

10:1 if you want parley that with the spinner also being a Tier 1 FP+.....

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Norway was always my favorite showcase, partly because of Maelstrom but also because it had the best merchandise, the bakery was a wonderful place to take a break with a snack, and the stave is a beautiful landmark that you can actually go into. While the stave may remain, who knows what else will survive the frozenfication. With Epcot in need of so much help, it seems a shame to alter something that is already beloved. As a ride that Disney itself determined required a fastpass system, it seems odd to remove it. I think this will be the first of the fastpass rides to be removed in any park.

Now I understand they need to add frozen to the Parks, and I did enjoy the film, but I think everyone, frozen fans included, think there could be a more productive way. With that said, perhaps there was no choice. Frozen does not belong permanently in HS or AKP, there is no room in fantasy land, especially after the expansion, and frozen in future world or any other showcase beyond Norway would have been ridiculous. I suppose this is the best of bad options.

This is about "forcing" people Into a park that has an obscenely high overhead cost...just as they are/ will try with animal kingdom.

That's not necessarily a "bad" thing if they put lures out that appeal to the masses...
But this seems like having little girls (mostly) drag mom and dad Into the showcase. And then it sets up a "bail" scenario like animal kingdom at lunch. They are using the world showcase as a buffer to that... Thinking mom and dad will stay... But subtracting from it to do so.

It's like Scrooge McDuck was appointed head of parks (wait...it's Staggs...that's pretty much the same)

If it pulls some crowd away from the land...that (again) isn't the worst idea...but they're just not doing it the right way.

Put frozen as an ADD ON in the studios...or finish your "princess realm" in the magic kingdom.

As point out earlier, this is thematically incorrect. And...big issue...Disney is continuing with this "addition by subtraction" nonsense. Rehabbing/retrofitting rides that already existed while in most cases actually contracting the guest offerings.

They still...I repeat STILL...have a mothballed future world pavilion and another that is a shell of itself.
A high priced swap meat.

Disney springs becomes very interesting now...as they took out an entire guest area for this "grand new vision"...
But if rumors hold, they're having problems with clients ( what happened with Hyperion wharf as well)...which means it could be ugly again.

Won't the adventures club fanbase get all animated if it opens with an apple store and froyo place?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I admit, this is where I am having a hard time grasping the resistance from the "against" camp. To me, while very eloquently stated, sounds an awful lot like a temper tantrum of the inner child within all of us. Put in much more simplistic terms, as I understand it, the crux of this resistance boils down to: Why are they taking part of my playground away and giving it to the kids? Don't the smaller kids already have a big enough playground in the MK?

I couldn't agree more that several areas in Epcot need attention more than the WS. That said, it is impossible to argue they should have randomly dropped a Frozen attraction in another part of the park when there is such an obvious connection to the Norway pavilion. As much as I would love to see Disney do something ground breaking and original in Epcot, you can't ignore Frozen will bring a significant boost to the park and take some of the pressure off TT and Soarin (at least short term even if the ride re-do stinks).

I see no reason why Frozen and the WS can't coexist. Sure, the dynamics of the WS may shift away from a primarily adult focus to more of a family experience. The family experience is what WDW is about. Blending Frozen into the WS makes perfect sense to me just like characters making their appearances in their related countries. I can see how introducing more family oriented activities into the WS may change someones experience when they are trying to drink themselves around the world or even how it could effect the atmosphere of F&W; but, I think the family experience is why most people go to WDW in the first place. Times change and the original concept of the WS is a thing of the past. Keeping it segregated as an adults only experience isn't practical and it certainly doesn't mean it will turn into "Magic Kingdom - South".

Disagree...though I compliment you on your argument.

It doesn't belong anywhere in that park...and the whole complex will become a terribly mundane thing if every park becomes nothing but a Kmart with a Pixar and princess overlay.

EPCOT was a concept. Sure I can look at 1000 videos of the Eiffel Tower and Chichen Itza on YouTube...
But I still would like to take my kids to give them a taste in a controlled environment or appreciate the art and the " show" they built for a few hours/days.

Animal kingdom was a concept... They have struggled and continue to fail in fleshing that out.

I can't help but thinking about some old Disney lines in this discussion
"Disneyland will never be finished"... Well, this management wants the massive wdw on low outlay cruise control. (Relative to the revenues... It certainly had been operating that way)

The other was Roy E's indictment of Eisner in 2003
"Timidity in the parks"
He was a huge loss for the Disney fans...because as much as he would laude china and the Disneyland reboot, he would view the losing of steam in Florida as that...

Fantasyland, downtown, even avatar from a certain perspective... All demonstrate "timidity" compared to the market.
And this is certainly that...peddling glitter and princess plush instead of concentrating on real innovation in the "innovators park"

 

[lockedoutlogic]

You are right. Times change. And from the inception of EPCOT until the present, the biggest thing that has changed has been the focus from Walt's vision to that of the Board's vision, which is focused solely on increasing revenues, dividends and shareholder return. If you really think that the suits give a d*** about "improving the family experience within World Showcase", then I'd really like to try some of that Kool-Aid.

I agree... Though I've had a change of course and do not condone your use of "Koolaid"


And dividends should be outlawed... More on that later

 

[wallrock]

Disagree...though I compliment you on your argument.

It doesn't belong anywhere in that park...and the whole complex will become a terribly mundane thing if every park becomes nothing but a Kmart with a Pixar and princess overlay.

EPCOT was a concept. Sure I can look at 1000 videos of the Eiffel Tower and Chichen Itza on YouTube...
But I still would like to take my kids to give them a taste in a controlled environment or appreciate the art and the " show" they built for a few hours/days.

Animal kingdom was a concept... They have struggled and continue to fail in fleshing that out.

I can't help but thinking about some old Disney lines in this discussion
"Disneyland will never be finished"... Well, this management wants the massive wdw on low outlay cruise control. (Relative to the revenues... It certainly had been operating that way)

The other was Roy E's indictment of Eisner in 2003
"Timidity in the parks"
He was a huge loss for the Disney fans...because as much as he would laude china and the Disneyland reboot, he would view the losing of steam in Florida as that...

Fantasyland, downtown, even avatar from a certain perspective... All demonstrate "timidity" compared to the market.
And this is certainly that...peddling glitter and princess plush instead of concentrating on real innovation in the "innovators park"

Better stated than my response. 'Timidity in the parks' sums it up nicely.

 

[Andrew015]

I admit, this is where I am having a hard time grasping the resistance from the "against" camp. To me, while very eloquently stated, sounds an awful lot like a temper tantrum of the inner child within all of us. Put in much more simplistic terms, as I understand it, the crux of this resistance boils down to: Why are they taking part of my playground away and giving it to the kids? Don't the smaller kids already have a big enough playground in the MK?

I fully admit, I have some resentment towards this change. Not because I am against "change" in general or because I thought Maelstrom was perfect "as-is". Rather, I am sick of watching corporate initiatives (MORE MONEY CAPTAIN) drive key decisions that undermine Walt's vision. I've never worked for Disney, but those who have can testify that many CM's still to this day treat his vision as the gospel. I get that Corporate's goal is to increase sales, profitability and shareholder value, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Choosing the cheapest and easiest path for short-term gain is NOT the best path for the company. Most of the "against camp", in this thread anyways, shares similar sentiments.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I fully admit, I have some resentment towards this change. Not because I am against "change" in general or because I thought Maelstrom was perfect "as-is". Rather, I am sick of watching corporate initiatives (MORE MONEY CAPTAIN) drive key decisions that undermine Walt's vision. I've never worked for Disney, but those who have can testify that many CM's still to this day treat his vision as the gospel. I get that Corporate's goal is to increase sales, profitability and shareholder value, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Choosing the cheapest and easiest path for short-term gain is NOT the best path for the company. Most of the "against camp", in this thread anyways, shares similar sentiments.

Shhhh...you've let out our "secret"

...now what am I gonna do when I'm supposed to be working?

 

[rteetz]

I fully admit, I have some resentment towards this change. Not because I am against "change" in general or because I thought Maelstrom was perfect "as-is". Rather, I am sick of watching corporate initiatives (MORE MONEY CAPTAIN) drive key decisions that undermine Walt's vision. I've never worked for Disney, but those who have can testify that many CM's still to this day treat his vision as the gospel. I get that Corporate's goal is to increase sales, profitability and shareholder value, but there is more than one way to skin a cat. Choosing the cheapest and easiest path for short-term gain is NOT the best path for the company. Most of the "against camp", in this thread anyways, shares similar sentiments.

If only more people especially the common guests realized this.

 

[clsteve]

This is about "forcing" people Into a park that has an obscenely high overhead cost...just as they are/ will try with animal kingdom.

That's not necessarily a "bad" thing if they put lures out that appeal to the masses...
But this seems like having little girls (mostly) drag mom and dad Into the showcase. And then it sets up a "bail" scenario like animal kingdom at lunch. They are using the world showcase as a buffer to that... Thinking mom and dad will stay... But subtracting from it to do so.

Exactly

Heck, maybe they do have to make both the ride and M&G as FP-only (as was mentioned by Lewisc) and add in those SB+ tickets with return times Mom2rtk brought up.

Those would be "perfect" for keeping Mom and Dad around spending while they wait for their return time......

Why? Because this is a square peg going in a round hole. It doesn't fit with the current operations of EPCOT. And sorry to be so focused on logistics - but it's just how my brain works:

RD: when this thing opens, what do you do at RD? If you keep WS opening at 11am, do they really want a few thousand princesses queueing up back past the fountain waiting for it to open?

What about at the Int'l Gateway?

And, if you do open it along with FutureWorld, don't you have to open the other countries as well? To your point, if they want to keep Mom and Dad in WS buying Grey Goose Slushies and caramels in K-Kuche, don't they have to be open also to keep them from migrating?

If they just open up Arendelle at 9am, maybe they also open Mexico and China - up to the bridge and create the 11am RD there? Start serving a breakfast buffet at Nine Dragons?

A lot of baking needs to happen. Square pegs create all kinds of follow-on issues once you get below the 50,000 foot level and really start to plan - even basic things like Park Ops.

This wouldn't be an issue in Fantasyland or DHS.....

 

[wallrock]

Exactly

Heck, maybe they do have to make both the ride and M&G as FP-only (as was mentioned by Lewisc) and add in those SB+ tickets with return times Mom2rtk brought up.

Those would be "perfect" for keeping Mom and Dad around spending while they wait for their return time......

Why? Because this is a square peg going in a round hole. It doesn't fit with the current operations of EPCOT. And sorry to be so focused on logistics - but it's just how my brain works:

RD: when this thing opens, what do you do at RD? If you keep WS opening at 11am, do they really want a few thousand princesses queueing up back past the fountain waiting for it to open?

What about at the Int'l Gateway?

And, if you do open it along with FutureWorld, don't you have to open the other countries as well? To your point, if they want to keep Mom and Dad in WS buying Grey Goose Slushies and caramels in K-Kuche, don't they have to be open also to keep them from migrating?

If they just open up Arendelle at 9am, maybe they also open Mexico and China - up to the bridge and create the 11am RD there? Start serving a breakfast buffet at Nine Dragons?

A lot of baking needs to happen. Square pegs create all kinds of follow-on issues once you get below the 50,000 foot level and really start to plan - even basic things like Park Ops.

This wouldn't be an issue in Fantasyland or DHS.....

Or this marks the beginning of opening of World Showcase at 9AM.

 

[wilkeliza]

They have a year and a half to figure it out. They would only need to open Norway not Mexico or China. Mexico currently has ropes that keep people out of the pavilions and the is a rope barricade or up and taken down everyday between Norway and China.

It is possible nothing changes Ave they just make a rule that unloads you have a dining reservation you elm not be allowed back towards Norway.

 

[Andrew015]

In this case, Disney is sticking with what it does best and what has always been its bread and butter, family entertainment.

You are right in that Disney is doing what it does best, but I hate to say, it's not "family entertainment". Rather, their strong suit, as of late, has been trying to maximize profits with minimal investment.

 

[Andrew015]

A lot of baking needs to happen. Square pegs create all kinds of follow-on issues once you get below the 50,000 foot level and really start to plan - even basic things like Park Ops.

This wouldn't be an issue in Fantasyland or DHS.....

You're making just way too much sense, Steve!

 

[Andrew015]

I can't help but thinking about some old Disney lines in this discussion...

"Disneyland will never be finished"... Well, this management wants the massive wdw on low outlay cruise control. (Relative to the revenues... It certainly had been operating that way)

The other was Roy E's indictment of Eisner in 2003...."Timidity in the parks"

He was a huge loss for the Disney fans...because as much as he would laude china and the Disneyland reboot, he would view the losing of steam in Florida as that...

I keep going back to this one: "Here in Florida, we have something special we never enjoyed at Disneyland...the blessing of size. There's enough land here to hold all the ideas and plans we can possibly imagine."

The only "idea" that Walt never "imagined" was that his beloved crown jewel would eventually be run by vultures in pinstripe suits....

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Or this marks the beginning of opening of World Showcase at 9AM.

They'll just extend the line past to Norway at park open...

The backdoor hotels already have access
To Canada and UK (or perhaps "England and friends" after Thursday") in the morning...just as an empty walkthrough.

Obviously the opening would be 9-9 at frozeland...they could just adjust.

They could adjust the night/morning maintenance schedule to draw back behind china and France in the morning.

Or, perhaps as somewhat suggested, you have "Donald's fiesta breakfast" in Mexico. They had one in the past at garden grill and they would probably easily fill it.

They'd almost have to have a "fastpass only" concept...perhaps a hard ticket up charge?...because a 3 hour queue In the showcase
Would muck up the whole park and really make them look bad.

Remember: there have NEVER been lines in the showcase...other than maelstrom, nothing ever warranted it.
It's not built for that.

 

[iheartglaciers]

I thought the Anna and Elsa meet and greet was open before the rest of world showcase when they were still in Norway.