Save Darfur!!

Jenny, in your case, I believe you are telling the truth and being sincere. But I believe you are the exception to the rule as stated by User Name.

Not really. I'll freedly admit that I voted for Bush as well in 2000. I was a tried and true Republican for years and years, much to the utter shock of many. I had so many discussions (psssttt..... ARGUMENTS) with my friends, all of whom were and are extremely liberal, as to how could I ever be Republican when I was an openly gay man? I had my reasons.

But, like Jen, it was Bush's actions and the actions of his cabinet in the past few years due specicially in part to Iraq that my mind was changed. Then his putting the whole stupid gay thing on his platform just pushed me over the edge.

Now my friends are happy. My military Republican Catholic dad... let's just say not so much.
 
I don't think Jenny is the exception at all. I think the anti-Bush people from the get go are just more vocal. I think people on both sides prefer to simplify by using absolutes (all Republicans are war mongers that don't care about people and support things based on WWGWBD. All Liberals only care about the cause du jour of celebrities and support things based on WWGWBD)

FTR I supported our presence in Afghanistan. I did not support Iraq because I felt it was detracting from the hunt for Bin Laden, it was misrepresented to the people, and knowing the history of the region that it would have been futile. I still think it's futile.

I was also against Clinton's stance on Rwanda. In fact I consider lack of support in Darfur as just a continuation with my disgust with our lack of action in Rwanda.
 
For goodness gracious, don't make this a conservative vs. liberal argument. So what if celebs are taking up the cause. So what if it is currently PC to want to end this genocide. So what if you and I disagree about Iraq. So what if it isn't happening nearby. People, families, children are suffering beyond comprehension. We are blessed nation. To those whom much is given, much is required. We have a moral obligation to do as a nation all that we can. And so far, I don't see this happening. Shame on conservatives and liberals in power who have not stood up for these people. Another place to look for information and possible donation opportunities is www.worldvision.org.

Couldn't agree more. Paricularly the sentence I hilighted.
 

I agree that we should do what we can diplomatically and economically, but I'm completely, 1000% opposed to U.S. military intervention in Darfur.

No where in any of my posts did I say that the situation called for direct military intervention Brenda. I do think, however, given the state of their own military's presence and actions, that we do need military escorts to insure the safety of those US government officials who might deign to step foot onto Darfur in hopes of ending the atrocities.
 
No where in any of my posts did I say that the situation called for direct military intervention Brenda. I do think, however, given the state of their own military's presence and actions, that we do need military escorts to insure the safety of those US government officials who might deign to step foot onto Darfur in hopes of ending the atrocities.


I understand that you didn't Rick, but there is a growing call for U.S. military intervention, and that's one that I would take to the streets to oppose. As for military escorts for the sake of safety, I wouldn't have any problem with that. But boots on the ground to intervene in the conflict? No way.
 
Please note that I AM in favor of the US doing something in Darfur.

I just wanted to point out that it's not a MILITARY issue, it's a social issue. Both important, but different. You're right, if Darfur was on top of a major portion of the world's oil, or water, or air, or food - we'd be in there already. Sad commentary, but true. There's no MILITARILY reason for the US to risk our troops. There IS a humanitarian reason for us to get involved.

I also believe that the US, being the moral (and military) leader in the world should take the lead if the UN doesn't - JUST like in Iraq. We have that ability and the responsibility.

I also VERY MUCH believe that many of the "save Darfur" crowd are COMPLETE hypocrites on this if they are not 100% for us being in Iraq. There are the same reasons to be in Iraq (plus MANY more) as Darfur. The only reason these hypocrites are anti-Iraq is because they're anti-Bush.


So you are a hypocrite if you want to stop genocide, unless you support the Iraq war 100%? :sad2:
 
So you are a hypocrite if you want to stop genocide, unless you support the Iraq war 100%? :sad2:

Opposing the Iraq war in general? No.

But I do think that people that are saying that we need to leave Iraq because it has become a civil war are hypocrites when they then turn around and advocate putting the same troops into the middle of another civil war.
 
I don't think Jenny is the exception at all. I think the anti-Bush people from the get go are just more vocal. I think people on both sides prefer to simplify by using absolutes (all Republicans are war mongers that don't care about people and support things based on WWGWBD. All Liberals only care about the cause du jour of celebrities and support things based on WWGWBD)

FTR I supported our presence in Afghanistan. I did not support Iraq because I felt it was detracting from the hunt for Bin Laden, it was misrepresented to the people, and knowing the history of the region that it would have been futile. I still think it's futile.

I was also against Clinton's stance on Rwanda. In fact I consider lack of support in Darfur as just a continuation with my disgust with our lack of action in Rwanda.


Very well said! :thumbsup2
 
That's total bull.. I voted for Bush in 2000. I supported him after 9/11. I supported him in Afghanistan.. It was his action in Iraq, among other things that led me to be Anti-Bush. The Anti-bush feeling did not come first.

Frankly,I am just as critical of Clinton for not intervening in Rwanda as I am of Bush not intervening in the Sudan

Me too. I was with him for a long time, but he lost me over the handling of Iraq. I might have been able to hang in there if the time after Saddam's fall hadn't been so badly handled. However, to President Bush's credit, at least he has said the word Genocide in regard to Darfur. There are plenty of other world leaders who haven't even done that much.

I was with President Clinton when he went into Bosnia and I was disappointed in him when he did not go into Rwanda.

Not all of us are RED or BLUE-some of us are more PURPLE
 
Opposing the Iraq war in general? No.

But I do think that people that are saying that we need to leave Iraq because it has become a civil war are hypocrites when they then turn around and advocate putting the same troops into the middle of another civil war.

I do not know what the solution is to either problem, so I would not venture to guess. I just know that doing nothing and allowing more people to be murdered because of the color of their skin, to allow more women to be raped repeatedly in the hope that they would become pregnant and give birth to a "less black" baby, is not the answer. No one in our government has shown any inclination to do anything about the problem, beyond a few words here and there. You can disagree with me and say this is a mere social issue, but to me, genocide is a crime and while we are using the "crimes against humanity" committed by Hussein as a reason for our invasion, where is the same issue with regards to Darfur? Why not go in and take out the leader who is committing this far more serious crime against humanity?

And if that makes me a hypocrite, oh well.
 
I oppose the Iraq War, not because it has turned into a civil war, but because I do not believe our government has been truthful in why we are there.

IF I believed we were really there to help the people and to promote civil liberties then I would be all for it. But I don't for a minute believe Bush sent us to Iraq to help free the Iraqi people (just as our Civil War was not about freeing slaves :rolleyes1 ).

I don't know if the US should start Military action in Darfur (as I stated in another post we don't have the troop capacity to do it even if we wanted to) but I feel any exposer for the cause can only be a good thing.
 
Yes -- Exposure,awareness and then pressure on those who can broker safety for NGOs so at least these aid workers can get to the people and help them.
 
So, if we do send troops to Darfur, you do realize that the enemy will do everything in their power to kill our troops, and undermine the effort in the media using propoganda - JUST like our enemy in Iraq.

If the "war in Darfur" doesn't go exactly as planned, are you all going to abandon the President then, too?

You can't really blame Pres. Bush for the way things are going in Iraq. There are hardened enemies who are fighting for their side. We're fighting for ours. We're following rules of engagement. They are not. Honestly, for a serious war, the casualty count is miniscule. We are taking no spoils of the war, yet we are rebuilding their country. We're doing everything possible to minimize casualties, and the media and many on the left are doing everything possible to undermine the efforts.

If our troops go in to Darfur and when (not if) they get killed, or when (not if) some innocent civilians die, or when (not if) the war doesn't go off exactly as planned, and when (not if) the media paints us as the bad guy, and when (not if) it gets dirty and bloody, and when (not if) Hollywood and the left use any bad news to their political advantage, and when (not if) the rest of the world calls us bullies, will you continue to support the President, or will you abandon him, JUST LIKE YOU DID in Iraq?!?
 
First of all I wouldn't call a pre-empted war as following the rules of engagement.

And Second of all

If our president went into Darfur to actually help the people and stop the genocide then yes I would still support him if when all those things happen.

However I don't believe that is why we are in Iraq (And I have believed this even before Hollywood got into the mix) so I can't justify the loss of life. Afganistan I agree with, if we were to actually go after Osama Bin Lauden I would be all for that too and 100% behind our president.
 
First of all I wouldn't call a pre-empted war as following the rules of engagement.

And Second of all

If our president went into Darfur to actually help the people and stop the genocide then yes I would still support him if when all those things happen.

However I don't believe that is why we are in Iraq (And I have believed this even before Hollywood got into the mix) so I can't justify the loss of life. Afganistan I agree with, if we were to actually go after Osama Bin Lauden I would be all for that too and 100% behind our president.

I agree! :thumbsup2 I am still confused as to why people are arguing that Iraq and Darfur are anything like one another. *We* started the Iraq war. Iraq did nothing to percipitate it. Darfur, on the other hand, is rocked by genocide, to repeat, over 300,000 people have died in a very short time... all because they have the wrong skin color. GENOCIDE.

Iraq has nothing to do with the "war on terror", nor, according to our dearest president in a statement today, is it a civil war. If there are any links to terrorism in Iraq right now, it is mostly because of us attacking them. Even our government admits that. Want to fight the true war on terror? Why not actually go back into Afganistan and ... erm... find the person in charge of the terrorist organization that we are all supposed to be quivering in fear of? Oh right, our dear president stated that he is not worried about Bin Laden. I forgot.

I don't care if you call it civil war or a square dance, genocide is something we should stop, however we can stop it. And I would guess that since it is spilling over into Chad and other surrounding countries that have refugees, that it now goes beyond a "simple" civil war. It is no longer a "social" problem and is instead one of those "crimes against humanity".

ETA: I highly doubt the rest of the world would call us bullies for stopping genocide. Somehow I think the world can see intentions in what we would do there. Besides, were we to go into Darfur, we would certainly take the lesson of Iraq and actually have one of those... what was that again? Oh... a plan! Hopefully the next president will actually listen to ALL of their advisers, not just the ones telling them what he (or she) wants to hear.
 
We* started the Iraq war. Iraq did nothing to percipitate it. Darfur, on the other hand, is rocked by genocide, to repeat, over 300,000 people have died in a very short time... all because they have the wrong skin color. GENOCIDE.

*WE* did NOT start the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein did. I know this is difficult for the lefties to admit, because it shoots so many holes in their arguements. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait (starting the war). We drove him out and as part of the cease fire, he agreed to certain terms. When he broke the terms, even though we gave him multiple opportunities, he broke the cease fire agreement. WE enforced it.

Iraq has nothing to do with the "war on terror", nor, according to our dearest president in a statement today, is it a civil war. If there are any links to terrorism in Iraq right now, it is mostly because of us attacking them. Even our government admits that. Want to fight the true war on terror? Why not actually go back into Afganistan and ... erm... find the person in charge of the terrorist organization that we are all supposed to be quivering in fear of? Oh right, our dear president stated that he is not worried about Bin Laden. I forgot.

Iraq had WMD's. Used them on a few occasions. We (and the rest of the world) thought he still had them and/or was very capable of starting up a program soon. Iraq was also providing cash to families of suicide bombers. Iraq is part of the war on terrorism. Again, WE didn't attack them. The majority of IRAQIS are not fighting us - it's a small, well armed, group of terrorists being supported by the remnants of Saddam Hussein's supporters and insurgents from Iran and Syria who don't want us to succeed there. This is not rocket science. Does it really matter whether it's labeled a "civil war" now? Does that mean we should just let the elements in Iraq who are pro-America and pro-democracy hang out to dry or should we continue to help them fight the common enemy?

When was the last time we actually heard from OBL? Odds are he's dead. But, even if he is (or not), there is still a fairly strong heirarchy that we're taking care of. They're not on TV daily, like our president. They're not in a government building. They don't have "offices". They're HIDING. It's pretty easy to go after the leader of a "real" country because they're out and about. When someone is being hidden and afraid to be out in public, it's a little hard to find them. Especially when there are countries, like Iran, Syria, Pakistan that are willing to protect them. Would you like us to invade Pakistan, Iran, Syria to find OBL and start WWIII, or would you prefer we continue to do it cautiously and deliberately? Again, not rocket science.

It is no longer a "social" problem and is instead one of those "crimes against humanity".

"Crimes Against Humanity" is exactly what Saddam Hussein was tried and executed for. Or, doesn't that count because the Kurds and Iranians aren't the right "skin color" as you previously mentioned.

ETA: I highly doubt the rest of the world would call us bullies for stopping genocide. Somehow I think the world can see intentions in what we would do there. Besides, were we to go into Darfur, we would certainly take the lesson of Iraq and actually have one of those... what was that again? Oh... a plan!

Yeah, there's no plan. Nice try. Plans have to change when they aren't working. The enemy's job is to make sure of that. Do you REALLY think there was no plan in Iraq?!? Do you REALLY think that the "plan" in Darfur will go perfectly?!? Get your head out of the sand! And, the rest of the world, led by Hollywood and the lefties ARE calling us bullies for supporting the current government in Iraq against their enemies.
 
User Name said:
Iraq had WMD's. Used them on a few occasions. We (and the rest of the world) thought he still had them and/or was very capable of starting up a program soon....

Of course Iraq had WMD...WE GAVE THEM TO HIM

And with that logic the entire world would have reason to go to war with us. We have WMD and we have used them in the past. We are the only country in the world to attack another country with an atomic bomb.

User Name said:
When was the last time we actually heard from OBL? Odds are he's dead. But, even if he is (or not), there is still a fairly strong heirarchy that we're taking care of. They're not on TV daily, like our president. They're not in a government building. They don't have "offices". They're HIDING. It's pretty easy to go after the leader of a "real" country because they're out and about. When someone is being hidden and afraid to be out in public, it's a little hard to find them....

We found Saddam Hussein in a hole in the ground. If we can do that we can find OBL Dead or Alive, just like our President promised.
 
*WE* did NOT start the Iraq war. Saddam Hussein did. I know this is difficult for the lefties to admit, because it shoots so many holes in their arguements. Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait (starting the war). We drove him out and as part of the cease fire, he agreed to certain terms. When he broke the terms, even though we gave him multiple opportunities, he broke the cease fire agreement. WE enforced it.

.

Last I checked, it was both the lefties, the righties and quite a few folks in the middle that feel the same about this debacle.
 


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer

New Posts







DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Add as a preferred source on Google

Back
Top Bottom