S/O What is middle class?

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

That's why I laugh when people want to tax the upper class more until they realize they are the upper class! It's sad to me that success and hard work have become dirty words in this country. You can't generalize entire classes of people. Not all wealthy people are greedy and selfish and not all the poor are victims and righteous.

Well I can see where you are coming from but I also think it's a lot more complicated than people think upper class/wealthy should be taxed more or has become dirty words.

A lot of that has to do with the many various ways that people in general can potentially work the tax system through loop holes or many deductions.

It's also a lot more complicated in a sense that it isn't 100% due to success and hard work that puts someone into upper class. You also have that success and hard work mean different things to different people.

 

[crisi]

It's also a lot more complicated in a sense that it isn't 100% due to success and hard work that puts someone into upper class. You also have that success and hard work mean different things to different people.

Definitely this. We did work hard to end up in that top 5%. But we also had the right talents at the right time - many people just couldn't do the sort of work we've done over the years - even with training - it takes certain mental abilities that aren't common. We had good backgrounds - my parents paid for my college, his didn't, but college was important - on the other hand, when his grandmother died, he inherited enough money to pay for a college education and then some - it was after his was paid for, but not everyone steps into that. We graduated from college into the recession of the late 80s - that was a tough time, but it was followed by the 1990s dot com boom - which we were able to take advantage of. I have had some lousy jobs and lousy bosses, but was lucky enough to spend 13 years working for a great company with a series of great bosses - my husband has had the same experience - a few bad situations, but overall his career has involved a series of great mentors. And it really only takes one person in a position of authority to make a career - one person who thinks you are promotable and has the power to do so.

We have plenty of friends and acquaintances who didn't get so lucky - although they've worked hard. They weren't in a position to take advantage of the dot com boom. They didn't get an opportunity to go to college because it was not affordable or their efforts weren't supported. They didn't get a chance to pay off six figures of debt when their grandmother died.

We've also been lucky with good health - for the past eighteen months I really haven't worked much due to illness. But because it happened now - when I'm fifty and there is money in the bank, my husband's career has been built and a business bringing in extra money - my lost income is felt, but it isn't tragic. Had I taken a year or two when I was 24 - our lives would be very different.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Definitely this. We did work hard to end up in that top 5%. But we also had the right talents at the right time - many people just couldn't do the sort of work we've done over the years - even with training - it takes certain mental abilities that aren't common. We had good backgrounds - my parents paid for my college, his didn't, but college was important - on the other hand, when his grandmother died, he inherited enough money to pay for a college education and then some - it was after his was paid for, but not everyone steps into that. We graduated from college into the recession of the late 80s - that was a tough time, but it was followed by the 1990s dot com boom - which we were able to take advantage of. I have had some lousy jobs and lousy bosses, but was lucky enough to spend 13 years working for a great company with a series of great bosses - my husband has had the same experience - a few bad situations, but overall his career has involved a series of great mentors. And it really only takes one person in a position of authority to make a career - one person who thinks you are promotable and has the power to do so.

We have plenty of friends and acquaintances who didn't get so lucky - although they've worked hard. They weren't in a position to take advantage of the dot com boom. They didn't get an opportunity to go to college because it was not affordable or their efforts weren't supported. They didn't get a chance to pay off six figures of debt when their grandmother died.

We've also been lucky with good health - for the past eighteen months I really haven't worked much due to illness. But because it happened now - when I'm fifty and there is money in the bank, my husband's career has been built and a business bringing in extra money - my lost income is felt, but it isn't tragic. Had I taken a year or two when I was 24 - our lives would be very different.

I think you meant to quote me considering that is from my comment?? Instead it shows you quoted tvguy

 

[Dakota731]

Then change the tax laws instead of vilifying people for taking LEGAL deductions. I'm sure most people on these boards take mortgage and 401k deductions yet someone who doesn't have a home or retirement plan thinks you are playing the system. It seems fair and okay when it's a deduction you use but unethical if it's a loophole we don't. Make it simple and equitable -everyone gets taxes 10% and NO deductions or exceptions.

 

[tvguy]

That's why I laugh when people want to tax the upper class more until they realize they are the upper class! It's sad to me that success and hard work have become dirty words in this country. You can't generalize entire classes of people. Not all wealthy people are greedy and selfish and not all the poor are victims and righteous.

Shades of the Yacht tax. The rich stopped buying yachts, and the working class that built them lost their jobs. Unemployment benefits paid out allegedly exceeded that the tax brought in.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Then change the tax laws instead of vilifying people for taking LEGAL deductions. I'm sure most people on these boards take mortgage and 401k deductions yet someone who doesn't have a home or retirement plan thinks you are playing the system. It seems fair and okay when it's a deduction you use but unethical if it's a loophole we don't. Make it simple and equitable -everyone gets taxes 10% and NO deductions or exceptions.

Well I can't change the tax laws and you have to look at who is in control of the ability to change the tax laws and their motivation to do so.

I didn't say it was unethical to use a loophole but it can play a large role into things. Having disposable monies can be different than income reported to the IRS. I'm not villifying people either. But what you were saying in your earlier post is just too simple of a justification. It's not just hard work and success and what is success to one person isn't to another.

Honestly sounds like you might have a tiny chip on your shoulder or you're taking it in a personal way rather than a general way.

 

[crisi]

I think you meant to quote me considering that is from my comment?? Instead it shows you quoted tvguy

That's weird, I wonder how that happened. Yes, I did. And I just clicked on the Reply button from your post.....

 

[crisi]

In the UK class has very little to do with income, you can be dog poor, living on benefits but if you have the right family background you are and will always be upper class and of course anyone with a hereditary title. Likewise you can be as rich as croesus and still be working class. It is all about background, education etc. rather than income. These days though the lines are more blurry with businesses which are global and less about the old school tie and did you go Eton. Some of that still exists but much less so. We are a much more egalitarian society but it is interesting to see the difference between cultures on what determines class.

You have some of that in the U.S. Socio-economic class has two components - the socio - i.e. is there an Earl in your family tree, did you go to Eton - in the U.S. you don't tend to get much of that on the high end - no one really cares if you are decedent from a President - no one really cares who your grandparents were at all, and most of us really don't even know what Phillips Exeter is - but you get it from the mid-range down - what sort of accent you have, where you grew up, do you watch golf or Nascar. And economic.

The socio is there - which is one of the reasons race is such a hot button here, because race is an immediate trigger on the socio part of class - accurate or not. Rich black men have gotten stopped for driving while black, just like poor black men do.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

That's weird, I wonder how that happened. Yes, I did. And I just clicked on the Reply button from your post.....

Ok that is soo strange I'll respond to your post anyways

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Definitely this. We did work hard to end up in that top 5%. But we also had the right talents at the right time - many people just couldn't do the sort of work we've done over the years - even with training - it takes certain mental abilities that aren't common. We had good backgrounds - my parents paid for my college, his didn't, but college was important - on the other hand, when his grandmother died, he inherited enough money to pay for a college education and then some - it was after his was paid for, but not everyone steps into that. We graduated from college into the recession of the late 80s - that was a tough time, but it was followed by the 1990s dot com boom - which we were able to take advantage of. I have had some lousy jobs and lousy bosses, but was lucky enough to spend 13 years working for a great company with a series of great bosses - my husband has had the same experience - a few bad situations, but overall his career has involved a series of great mentors. And it really only takes one person in a position of authority to make a career - one person who thinks you are promotable and has the power to do so.

We have plenty of friends and acquaintances who didn't get so lucky - although they've worked hard. They weren't in a position to take advantage of the dot com boom. They didn't get an opportunity to go to college because it was not affordable or their efforts weren't supported. They didn't get a chance to pay off six figures of debt when their grandmother died.

We've also been lucky with good health - for the past eighteen months I really haven't worked much due to illness. But because it happened now - when I'm fifty and there is money in the bank, my husband's career has been built and a business bringing in extra money - my lost income is felt, but it isn't tragic. Had I taken a year or two when I was 24 - our lives would be very different.

Ok Now that I know you were trying to reply to me lol....

I graduated college in 2010. I paid my way through it and have the student loans to prove it lol. When I graduated it was bleak outlook on getting jobs in your field/success at jobs when you graduate and just overall outlook in large part to the recession ~2008. My husband was just very lucky that the company that he worked for wanted him on full time when he graduated which was in 2011. And he was very lucky to have worked for that company in the first place as a 17 year old intern. Without that our lives would have been dramatically different. Now he graduated with an aerospace engineering degree but works as a mechanical engineer. Before he graduated he took some mechanical classes per his company's request. My husband's first year of college was paid for along with his second year of college his apartment was paid for by his family. I on the other hand didn't have any financial assistance. I still would say we both were successful and hard working but our definition will be different than someone else's.

It was just that it's too simple to say hard work and success=upper class. Things evolve too some for the better some for the not.

 

[Anthony1971]

Well I can see where you are coming from but I also think it's a lot more complicated than people think upper class/wealthy should be taxed more or has become dirty words.

A lot of that has to do with the many various ways that people in general can potentially work the tax system through loop holes or many deductions.

I can promise you that unless you have business and those business allow you to have write offs for losses the people working hard for a company and being compensated for it --things still need to get done on weekends this needs to be done before Monday morning but after Friday and nights overseas calls-do not have those write offs it is called AMT in which the first thing to be limited is your federal write off for local and property taxes paid and mortgage interest than branches out to donations much less trying to meet the 2% before medical write offs phase in.. much less any type of deduction for child care or anything else... while you are still in a good position in life people who say you make x amount of dollars you have write offs are mistaken you have less write offs... only those who can use their personally owned business or like as write off have big write offs.

 

[WVMomof3]

Then change the tax laws instead of vilifying people for taking LEGAL deductions. I'm sure most people on these boards take mortgage and 401k deductions yet someone who doesn't have a home or retirement plan thinks you are playing the system. It seems fair and okay when it's a deduction you use but unethical if it's a loophole we don't. Make it simple and equitable -everyone gets taxes 10% and NO deductions or exceptions.

Do you even know what your tax rate is if you were to look at your income with no deductions and taxes paid? 10% would be double what we paid last year, and we only do the standard deduction. I think people who say this do not understand taxes or make way more than us average middle class people. While our income looks like we fall into the 28% bracket and 10% seems like it would be a bargain, after deductions and exemptions, that starting income gets turned into taxable income and then, only a tiny sliver gets taxed at 25% (because we no longer fall into the 28% category), a little bit more at 15%, a tiny bit at 10%, not mentioning that whole portion thanks to standard deduction and exemptions get taxed at 0. So, while I am all for making the tax code simple, that 10% would be devastating to families that make the least.

Edited to add, just going back and looking at last years taxes, I think we would be right at 10% without kids giving us more exemptions. Do I think that having kids should lower your tax rate? I am not sure, it does sound good while I have kids! Ughh, guess we are soon to be paying more taxes as our kids are leaving the nest. We did notice a difference last year when my oldest turned 18. I do maintain that at this time, 10% would be serious hardship on us and I feel like we make decent money, we have old cars and a smaller than average house.

 

[tvguy]

That's weird, I wonder how that happened. Yes, I did. And I just clicked on the Reply button from your post.....

I was wondering too.

 

[Bree]

Ugh...I really take issue with the child tax credits. Not once in the 13 years we have parents have we ever qualified.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I was wondering too.

I even checked my quote just to see if there was something funky with it but no it looks just like normal format so it's strange for sure that when replying to my comment it quoted you instead of me as the person who was being replied to.

 

[havaneselover]

Ugh...I really take issue with the child tax credits. Not once in the 13 years we have parents have we ever qualified.

I hear you and when I was married we never qualified. As a single parent with no child support it was a life saver when I was reestablishing my career.

My understanding is it was aimed to help low and middle income families by reducing poverty, promoting work, and supporting children's development. There's evidence that it's been effective and these objectives are clearly good for taxpayers in the long run.

Our tax code is screwy. Intentions may be good but it certainly favors some over others. That said, when I was a kid my dad taught me that if you were complaining about your taxes, you probably were in a very fortunate Position.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

This conversation is so interesting in a global context. Did you know that globally extreme poverty has been cut in half over the past 25 years? And when surveyed, only 1% of people knew that. 70% of survey respondents actually thought that extreme poverty had increased by 25% or more.

I wonder if this is a function of expectation or our national narrative.

Countries with the highest income per capita and lowest income gap are also the most egalitarian, providing women with the greatest opportunities for education, career advancement and family planning (contraceptives, paid family leave, universal child care, etc.). The US lags behind many countries on these metrics. It would be interesting to see studies that look at just US women's income based on education and workforce participation and determines overall family socio-economic status (lower, working, middle, upper middle, upper).

 

[Dakota731]

I'm just saying that people never want the tax deductions THEY use to be eliminated only ones used by evil businesses or corporations. It's the same premise behind the "I'm definitely not upper class" even though your income shows you are in this country. Hard to tax them to death if you are one of them!

 

[Realfoodfans]

What are you doing to make your yard less maintenance? We are on 1/3 acre and it's almost entirely grass. We hate how big it is and how much time/money it takes to maintain. I'm trying to find some options that don't require fighting weeds all of the time.

When we retired I had all the back garden hard landscaped with York stone, small walls retain some border areas which are heavily planted with bulbs and woodland plants under surrounding trees. It takes minimum upkeep - leaves brushing up and occasionally tidying of the borders as the seasons change.

 

[Realfoodfans]

In the UK class has very little to do with income, you can be dog poor, living on benefits but if you have the right family background you are and will always be upper class and of course anyone with a hereditary title. Likewise you can be as rich as croesus and still be working class. It is all about background, education etc. rather than income. These days though the lines are more blurry with businesses which are global and less about the old school tie and did you go Eton. Some of that still exists but much less so. We are a much more egalitarian society but it is interesting to see the difference between cultures on what determines class.

My thoughts too as I've read through what our US friends have written. I grew up in a wealthy, privileged area, went to grammar school, had every opportunity, trained as a journalist and always worked - so consider myself working class!