Run/Walk/Run discussion

[Evil fairy 88]

Very interesting topic and I am wanting to learn more from others about it. And so far it sounds like I should train with it if I am to use it correctly. I normally do not use it in training, but I am learning to not be afraid of taking walk breaks (along with just slowing down) and walking downhills to help with a knee ITBS thing.


I am going to repost something I put in the Springtime Surprise thread which is my internal debate about using RWR and being strict about it, or maybe using it when needed:

To join in the RWR discussion, I have successfully used the RWR method for the longer distances at the WDW races, but beginning to wonder if I might do better by having much longer stretches of just running. For the Princess Half, I was targeting a finish time and knew what overall pace I needed to get that, using a 90/30 R/W ratio. It worked fine, but there were times when it felt like I had to go really fast during the run portions to make up for the walks and ramping up from the walks was sometimes tough - could really feel my calves protesting. Then because of the bottleneck around Polynesian construction and especially the path between Grand Floridian and Magic Kingdom, I fell behind the pace. After Magic Kingdom on the road, I began stretching out the run portions, even sometimes just skipping the walk. I eventually clawed back the lost time and finished under my target time and was very happy with that.
Looking at the run in the COROS app, I was doing a lot of the runs fast - under 10:00, I even see a few 9:26, 9:37, etc. The way I like to run is to lock into a steady pace and rhythm and like a metronome just grind away, there is something just very satisfying about that. Now I know Galloway says to do the RWR from the very first mile, but I am thinking maybe I do a hybrid - get a nice steady pace, especially on the wide open roads, then use the RWR when I need to, walk through water stations, etc.

I use a hybrid RWR method, where I start off the race with all running, usually because I am pumped up at the start and I feel like it gives me more of a cushion right at the beginning to walk more later or stop for characters. After the first few miles, then I usually switch to a true RWR method. I think whatever works best for you is what works- I just love that walking is not frowned upon at Disney races because it allows me to complete longer distances that I would never have thought possible.

 

[Dopey 2020]

Quick math says you averaged 10:43/mile and using 3/:30 and an average walk of 19, your running pace would have been 10/mile. Just staying with that would get you a 2:20:30 HM. The fact that you had gas left after 1-running the challenge and 2-the temperature and dew point for the 10 miler says rested legs on a good day will get you a better time. If you’re finding that you like running longer stretches and can maintain pace just staying with 10/mile running and going to 3:30/:30 gets you a 2:11:58 HM

@rick1zoo2 my bad, don’t want to give you the wrong info. Not sure what I hit originally but going to 3:30/:30 gets you to 2:19 HM, not 2:11. That would take running at about 9:30. I was just out for my run thinking the whole time ‘that doesn’t math, what the heck numbers did you type’

 

[rick1zoo2]

@rick1zoo2 my bad, don’t want to give you the wrong info. Not sure what I hit originally but going to 3:30/:30 gets you to 2:19 HM, not 2:11. That would take running at about 9:30. I was just out for my run thinking the whole time ‘that doesn’t math, what the heck numbers did you type’

No worries, I was thinking that was a bit fast for me! But I do really appreciate all the advice from you and everyone else. It's helping me develop some strategies

 

[Naomeri]

@rick1zoo2 my bad, don’t want to give you the wrong info. Not sure what I hit originally but going to 3:30/:30 gets you to 2:19 HM, not 2:11. That would take running at about 9:30. I was just out for my run thinking the whole time ‘that doesn’t math, what the heck numbers did you type’

This is why I let spreadsheets math for me, as soon as it gets beyond basic numbers, my brain just shuts down. And time/duration math? Forget about it!

 

[Mr_Incr3dible]

>>My PT got me into r/w/r. I never looked backed! That was 2019, I have had no serious injuries since.
And Galloway states that his initial goal was training without injuries, which it seems to do.

My 2-cents worth: In the past, I've run between the water stops and have walked through water stops as the walk part, which meant roughly 1-mile runs with a minute or so of walking. And for the rD races, any character stops were also rest breaks. That mostly worked, but I was mostly walking the second half of the full.
As of the beginning of this year, I've been more diligent about a true RWR pace. I started with a longer run interval and had to dial it back (whatever I mentioned in my training log) and at the moment have 45/45 programmed into my watch, and that is what I used for the SS 10-miler.
I think the "trap" for RWR is feeling good at the beginning and running longer than you should before taking a walk break. So to test things out, I've made myself deliberately take the walk breaks early in my training runs, and that seems to pay dividends at the end of the run.
That said, there were times during the 10-miler and this week in the neighborhood where I was in a rhythm and ran through a walk break, but I then took the next walk break that came up. And, there were times when I extended a run segment by ten seconds or so and shortened up the walk by an equal amount and vice versa. Doing that, it all evens out in the end.
I can report that I was severely undertrained for SS, but was still able to do run intervals at the end of the race. I'm sold on it, and will continue to use it, but I will be experimenting with different intervals as I get more trained up. As @Naomeri stated, if it works for you, then it is a good interval to use.
YMMV

 

[matt and beth]

The run/walk strategy seems to work so well for people. I’ve tried it a little but personally struggle in this method. I’ve gotten older and slower but still set goals for the 1/2 at W&D and the full at MW. So say for example this year I want to run a 3:49. The pace would be 8:45. It’s comfortable at the first half and as fatigue sets in a little past halfway I can watch the HR creep up from 135 HR to roughly 160 HR at the finish. I’ve tried the R/W but to maintain the 8:45 it requires a much faster pace during the run portion at around 8:00. My HR goes way up into 160 HR which builds lactic acid in a short time. In my younger days of some ultras I found pushing the pace (not lactic) and then backing into a slower jog was pretty effective. Like a hybrid. Now I walk the uphills on the overpass and the water stops and jog the rest.

 

[matt and beth]

To follow up on my prior post about my internal debate on the race strategy, this is a bit of a recap of the Springtime Surprise 10 Mile from April 6.

After talking with Dopey 2020 prior to the race, the idea of what to do clicked. I ran most of the race using a 3 minute run / 30 second walk. But I also did some long stretches where I got into a nice pace and skipped a few walk breaks. I also walked through the water stations and some of the uphills. We started right next to the 1:50 pacers who were going to do 60/30 intervals, but I moved on from them. On the uphill just before mile 8 the pace group caught up to me and I did a few intervals with them. I noticed that their run interval was fast and I definitely needed the walks to recover from those. So, I went back to doing my own thing and left them behind. And since there was less than 2 miles to go, I upped my pace. I still had gas in the tank and the last mile was my fastest (no walks). I had several targets to aim for, depending on how I felt and the weather: first was to be under 2 hours. I knew I could do that based on my half marathon best from Princess weekend as it would be the same pace. The next goal was 1:50 which would be a minute per mile faster. My stretch goal was 1:45 which would get POT for Dopey Challenge. I ended up 1:47:11, which I am very happy about. In hindsight, there were a few things I wish I would have done different - I couldn't get a gel out of my belt before one of the water stops, and I had to stop after I got my cup, to put that down and get the gel out. I figure that might have cost me about a minute and I might have got under the 1:46 cut-off for the Dopey POT. But again, it's all learning and I was happy with it. But I do think the 3 minute run / 30 second walk worked well for me.

On the chart below, you can see the walk breaks,

View attachment 957706View attachment 957707

Do you have the HR on these moles to share? Just curious

 

[rick1zoo2]

Do you have the HR on these moles to share? Just curious

Sure - this is the data, then a chart that has pace and HR overlay

 

[DopeyBadger]

Here's a post some years ago about the run/walk methodology that might be relevant to the conversation: Some science for run/walk methodology

As for mathing, my co-worker and I developed this formula some years ago to aid in determining run/walk pacing:

Run/Walk Training Paces

This calculator uses a method of physiologically relevant pacing combined with the run/walk style. It's an attempt at developing a calculator that will suggest pacing schemes for you based on different training paces. To use this calculator, make sure the yellow box for "comfortable walking pace" has been inputted in a HH:MM:SS format (such as 0:17:00 for 17 minute/mile walking pace). As you can see, the walking pace is fixed at your set value for a comfortable walk. The duration of the walk is also fixed at 30 seconds. The run pace is fixed based on the different paces themselves. Lastly, the run duration is calculated using the formula:


((Walking Pace - Average Pace)*Walking Duration) / (Average Pace - Run Pace) = Run Duration


The output are 5 paces that can used in training. There are two different versions of this calculator based on the style of run/walk someone desires.


Option A = Slower run pace, but with longer run duration


Easy/Long = 80% of training would be at this pace. The basis is to keep this pace truly easy and mostly for building fatigue from one run to the next. In keeping with this philosophy, I set the run pace to be at the "long run" continuous pace as to elicit the desired nearly 100% easy aerobic pacing.


Marathon = The run pace on this interval set is the "LT" pace. This is the estimated lactate threshold pace for the runner (estimated 60 min race pace). The normal run to rest ratio is 5:1 for LT pace in a training workout.


Half-Marathon = The run pace on this interval set is the "5k" pace.


10k = The run pace on this interval set is the "3k" pace. This pace is very close to a VO2max training pace. Ideally, the run duration of this pace is kept between 2-5 min with equal rest. But keeping the run duration to less than 2 min is ideal. The normal run to rest ratio is 1:1 in a training run.


5k = The run pace on this interval set is the "Mile" pace. Ideally, the run duration of this pace is kept to less than 2 minutes. The normal run to rest ratio of mile pace in a training workout is 1:2-3.


Option B = Faster run pace and a shorter run duration


Easy/Long = 80% of training would be at this pace. The basis is to keep this pace truly easy and mostly for building fatigue from one run to the next. In keeping with this philosophy, I set the run pace to be at the "long run" continuous pace as to elicit the desired nearly 100% easy aerobic pacing.


Marathon, Half-Marathon, and 10k = The run pace on this interval set is the "3k" pace. This pace is very close to a VO2max training pace. Ideally, the run duration of this pace is kept between 2-5 min with equal rest. But keeping the run duration to less than 2 min is ideal. The normal run to rest ratio is 1:1 in a training run.


5k = The run pace on this interval set is the "Mile" pace. Ideally, the run duration of this pace is kept to less than 2 minutes. The normal run to rest ratio of mile pace in a training workout is 1:2-3.







It's created by mixing the principles of Billat/Daniels with Galloway. I can share it via email if anyone wants to play around with it. it does contain some proprietary Daniels formula information that helps power the calculator that I was able to get my hands on that I can't just post online.