Rumors that Disney is in negotiations to sell Star Wars back to George Lucas!

[HokieRaven5]

One thing I will stand on is that Holdo is a terribly example of leadership. She doesn't trust her own people and chooses sanctimony over engendering confidence. She almost got her whole crew killed. I am however absolutely fine with that. Having an officer that butts heads with the rank and file is common in military dramas. She's a "cake eater" plain and simple. The only thing I don't like is how she tries to make herself out as right to Leia in the end and be all like, "Oh, I like Poe too," despite her actions.

Just my take, Holdo was presented with an impossible scenario. Either the First Order is truly capable of Lightspeed tracking as presented, or there is a mole among her ranks. Being unsure of which is the truth you have to keep the plan close to the chest and among primarily the captains of each vessel.

With Poe, she’ll know he’s reckless and may let it slip anyway, which he did once he found out the plan.

 

[BrianL]

Just my take, Holdo was presented with an impossible scenario. Either the First Order is truly capable of Lightspeed tracking as presented, or there is a mole among her ranks. Being unsure of which is the truth you have to keep the plan close to the chest and among primarily the captains of each vessel.

Yeah, but she knows - or she SHOULD know - that Poe is not the mole. She should have taken him aside and said, "Look, I need your help with this. We're going to get through this, but if you can help keep your guys calm, I would really appreciate it. I'll let you know more when I can." Instead the is immediately combative and belittling. Again, that's a super-realistic stance for a high-ranking officer to take, but it's not going to make the audience or the enlisted folks like her.

 

[HokieRaven5]

Yeah, but she knows - or she SHOULD know - that Poe is not the mole. She should have taken him aside and said, "Look, I need your help with this. We're going to get through this, but if you can help keep your guys calm, I would really appreciate it. I'll let you know more when I can." Instead the is immediately combative and belittling. Again, that's a super-realistic stance for a high-ranking officer to take, but it's not going to make the audience or the enlisted folks like her.

They don’t have to like her, she’s just what Poe needs to become a leader and challenge him so he can understand what tough decisions a leader may have to make.

 

[BrianL]

They don’t have to like her, she’s just what Poe needs to become a leader and challenge him so he can understand what tough decisions a leader may have to make.

No, they don't have to like her, but it helps. Instead of teaching him, she set him on a course for mutiny. She greatly misjudged the situation.

 

[HokieRaven5]

No, they don't have to like her, but it helps. Instead of teaching him, she set him on a course for mutiny. She greatly misjudged the situation.

She has recent knowledge of him disobeying orders to return to a ship in favor of sacrificing an entire fleet of bombers to take out 1 Dreadnought.

 

[mdmost]

No, they don't have to like her, but it helps. Instead of teaching him, she set him on a course for mutiny. She greatly misjudged the situation.

She's the Rian Johnson of the movie.

The Holdo Maneuver is one of the best moments I've experienced in a theater since it was so quiet you could hear the audience gasping.

 

[HokieRaven5]

The Holdo Maneuver is one of the best moments I've experienced in a theater since it was so quiet you could hear the audience gasping.

A maneuver that works because the First Order fleet is solely focused on the pods and not the main vessel.

Thanks to Poe letting the plan slip to Finn and subsequently DJ who shared it with the First Order.

 

[BrianL]

She has recent knowledge of him disobeying orders to return to a ship in favor of sacrificing an entire fleet of bombers to take out 1 Dreadnought.

Right and that could be dealt with. I'm not saying she had to tell him everything, but she knew - or SHOULD have known - that Poe commands a lot of respect amongst the pilot corps, people she needs to get this done. She wants to command from a "Do what I say because I said so," framework, but that never works well. Yes, it is often the case in the military, but that doesn't mean it's not met with consternation. It's better to lead through respect.

 

[HokieRaven5]

Right and that could be dealt with. I'm not saying she had to tell him everything, but she knew - or SHOULD have known - that Poe commands a lot of respect amongst the pilot corps, people she needs to get this done. She wants to command from a "Do what I say because I said so," framework, but that never works well. Yes, it is often the case in the military, but that doesn't mean it's not met with consternation. It's better to lead through respect.

That’s the point of her character though. Where Leia is the side of leadership that did more stroking of Poe’s ego, Holdo is meant to be abrasive towards him.

 

[BrianL]

That’s the point of her character though. Where Leia is the side of leadership that did more stroking of Poe’s ego, Holdo is meant to be abrasive towards him.

No, right. Exactly. I have no problem with it from a narrative perspective. I just think, that based on her actions as shown that Holdo isn't a great leader and is even trying to hide that fact from Leia. It's all fine form a story perspective.

 

[HokieRaven5]

No, right. Exactly. I have no problem with it from a narrative perspective. I just think, that based on her actions as shown that Holdo isn't a great leader and is even trying to hide that fact from Leia. It's all fine form a story perspective.

Yeah her qualities as a leader can be questioned and debated for sure, but in terms of the movie she serves her purpose for Poe to develop as a character, IMO.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Don't get me started on how goofy the Holdo Maneuver was. Why on earth not just do that each and every time to win any battle in the history of space battles. Another example of trying to sensationalize the Disney ST to make it bigger and better than the OT that it was based on. Anything prior Jedi had done with massive amounts of effort, Rey could easily do with no outward signs of even breaking a sweat (see levitating with the force hundreds of boulders simultaneously around her, or ripping ships apart with the force).

 

[nancipants]

She has recent knowledge of him disobeying orders to return to a ship in favor of sacrificing an entire fleet of bombers to take out 1 Dreadnought.

Yes but isn't the Dreadnought kind of like a superweapon? What would have happened to the Resistance fleet if they hadn't destroyed it and it tracked them through hyperspace?

This is one of the reasons I think it was a bad decision to start the movie immediately after TFA. Poe has just destroyed Starkiller Base, becoming a hero for the Resistance, but then his leadership skills in battle are immediately questioned. And Poe has been in the Resistance for a long time, he's not a newbie like Luke was. It just felt so weird to me, like they were trying to create a conflict with Poe that didn't really exist from what we've seen of his character.

 

[BrianL]

Don't get me started on how goofy the Holdo Maneuver was. Why on earth not just do that each and every time to win any battle in the history of space battles. Another example of trying to sensationalize the Disney ST to make it bigger and better than the OT that it was based on. Anything prior Jedi had done with massive amounts of effort, Rey could easily do with no outward signs of even breaking a sweat (see levitating with the force hundreds of boulders simultaneously around her, or ripping ships apart with the force).

They explain why the Holdo Maneuver isn't commonly used. Someone would have to steer the ship and keep it dead-perfect on course. Picture the angle, the distance (which is actually much further in space than it seems), and how fast the ship will move once in lightspeed. If it's not exactly right, they would miss. It's a real desperation move with little chance of actual success.

 

[HokieRaven5]

Yes but isn't the Dreadnought kind of like a superweapon? What would have happened to the Resistance fleet if they hadn't destroyed it and it tracked them through hyperspace?

This is one of the reasons I think it was a bad decision to start the movie immediately after TFA. Poe has just destroyed Starkiller Base, becoming a hero for the Resistance, but then his leadership skills in battle are immediately questioned. And Poe has been in the Resistance for a long time, he's not a newbie like Luke was. It just felt so weird to me, like they were trying to create a conflict with Poe that didn't really exist from what we've seen of his character.

It is, but if Poe returns to the fleet and follows orders they could also try to escape without taking more damage. At that time they didn’t know the First Order had the capability of Lightspeed tracking.

The conflict for Poe is necessary to make him less reckless trigger happy, and more of a calculated leader in tactics. How it’s set out absolutely up to the viewer to like or dislike.

As far as TLJ almost immediately starting after TFA, JJ imo forced that hand. Have to provide a somewhat rational explanation to why Luke never showed up to save a friend who 20+ years prior he sensed would soon be in trouble from worlds away and abandon training.

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

They explain why the Holdo Maneuver isn't commonly used. Someone would have to steer the ship and keep it dead-perfect on course. Picture the angle, the distance (which is actually much further in space than it seems), and how fast the ship will move once in lightspeed. If it's not exactly right, they would miss. It's a real desperation move with little chance of actual success.

But she pulls it off magically in her first and only attempt?

 

[mdmost]

Well there's not really a 2nd attempt since you're committing suicide like Kamikaze pilots.

 

[BrianL]

But she pulls it off magically in her first attempt?

Let's just say she got lucky. What, you'd rather she lived?

 

[PolymerSkywalker]

Let's just say she got lucky. What, you'd rather she lived?

I just think it is really goofy and seems to be an incredible military tactic that is basically unstoppable. It seems to fundamentally change how wars are or would be waged. Why have we never heard of this before?

 

[BrianL]

I just think it is really goofy and seems to be an incredible military tactic that is basically unstoppable. It seems to fundamentally change how wars are or would be waged. Why have we never heard of this before?

Because nobody was dumb enough to try it. How is it any different ahnt Han Solo actually going into an asteroid field or any other unusual tactic that helps our heroes succeed by the skin of their teeth? That's what ALL of these movies are like.