Rumor: Disney shutting down rental brokers

[crisi]

How about a $95 convince fee, a resort parking fee or some other fee for non-members. Disney added the $95 booking fee and didn't say a word, apparently that's legal.

Bill

No magical express if you aren't the member or traveling with the member, key card the laundry room to your member card, dining plan only to members and guests that are accompanied by members. Members staying on their own points get priority on room requests - but none of those things would have a significant impact on renting and I doubt all of them together would have an impact on renting in the current environment.

 

[disneynutz]

No magical express if you aren't the member or traveling with the member, key card the laundry room to your member card, dining plan only to members and guests that are accompanied by members. Members staying on their own points get priority on room requests - but none of those things would have a significant impact on renting and I doubt all of them together would have an impact on renting in the current environment.

Hard to know what would tip the issue. People buy direct even though they could save thousands resale just because they don't want to take a chance that Disney might change the rules or get upset. IMO it would take much for Disney to cause things to change for owners and renters.

Bill

 

[keishashadow]

But 11 month bookings are only available to BWV owners.

yes, same as any resort. My point was anybody, including a member who owns at a different resort, can use a broker to garner the 11 month window if they are willing to pay a premium to purchase the points. in turn, not a stretch for them to then 'sell' their points to a broker or save them for an additional trip another time.

tjkraz - I couldn't guess as to the # of people who jump thru the rental hoops. As with all things Disney, would be willing to bet there is a large contingent who are willing to do the dance. it's highly likely once burned getting a reservation, a member will work at it to insure their next booking is successful.

 

[Deb & Bill]

What about guest certificates for non-member reservations? DVC could require those. If the member isn't on the reservation, you need a guest certificate. And then they must attend a required sales event. That would shut just about anything down. But as brokers compete for points from members, the price to rent goes up. It goes up too much and guests will just book moderate resorts and save money. Plus be able to cancel or change their reservation.

 

[TheGecko]

Umm...just out of curiosity...where is the "Facebook" rumor that has resulted in three pages of speculation and debate? A lot of discussion with very little details.

 

[JWigs]

So many people feel so passionate about this!

We purchased 2 home resorts this past summer that closed around Xmas. One was going to be mostly stripped and the other came fully loaded. Even more so than we thought (they had banked pts in that were going to expire in June that they didn't tell us in the contract).

Since we already have a BLT trip booked for 2 weeks from now and aren't planning to go back by June; we had to rent the points.

Would it have been better to let them expire? Or was it better to let someone get use of them so that it wasn't being wasted? No one we know is going to Disney and so we opted to use a broker.

And for those who have bad perceptions of brokers, the one I work with was great. They'd let you know which resort and how many pts and you would email and they would send you the guests info to book. I've never had one cancel and the only time I had to edit was to add a celebration to the reservation.

I personally feel that since you bought your points; they are yours to do with what you will. If anyone is not getting a room at 11 mos it's not likely due to renters. And it's likely you aren't getting a view type but the rooms are available but at higher points. The brokers don't even ask for a owner to book as they check first to see if anything is available before posting the listing.

We have NFL season tickets and since having DD we don't go to every home game and resell it via NFL ticket exchange. It doesn't mean we aren't fans but it is hard to find a sitter every Sunday and it's way too loud to bring her to a game. Sounds like some of you would be fine if Disney did a ticket exchange but you'd end up paying more in fees than anything else.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I really don't think being locked out of your home resort at 11 months has much to do with renters. More likely demand from owners than renters.

The brokers model is no changes and no cancellations so I don't see why brokers would lead to holding and cancelling. Brokers ask you to book a specific reservation then they won't allow changes or cancellations.

being locked out at 11 months is more likely owners walking.

Not all brokers. There is at least one that allows the renter to purchase cancellation/change insurance and they try to change the reservation if they can.

 

[msjprincess]

yes, same as any resort. My point was anybody, including a member who owns at a different resort, can use a broker to garner the 11 month window if they are willing to pay a premium to purchase the points. in turn, not a stretch for them to then 'sell' their points to a broker or save them for an additional trip another time.

tjkraz - I couldn't guess as to the # of people who jump thru the rental hoops. As with all things Disney, would be willing to bet there is a large contingent who are willing to do the dance. it's highly likely once burned getting a reservation, a member will work at it to insure their next booking is successful.

I doubt many members are doing that. And I'm still not understanding what SSR being built has to do with 11 month availability at BWV.

 

[keishashadow]

I doubt many members are doing that. And I'm still not understanding what SSR being built has to do with 11 month availability at BWV.

You are entitled to your opinion

A friend who has recently bought resale @ SSR has told me she is doing exactly whatt i described for a trip next year. Broker she rented thru before buying in, indicates that they have great success rates. Said she read the strategy on another message board. I don't advocate it and sure wouldn't go thru the time and effort. was surprised to hear of it, but I also was when I first read the hint as to walking a reservation here.

While on the subject - once SSR was built, the bonus trips we usually were able to book at any of our home resorts became more difficult to secure once the 7 month window opened. On the other hand I have noticed that we could often grab SSR even during busy time periods a few months out...perhaps it does all balance out in the end in some fashion.

I have told our guide that we don't plan on adding on again because of the issue of booking studios where we want to stay after the 7 month window. There are plenty of nice offsite resorts usually available at decent rates.

 

[crisi]

I've done what keisha is saying. I rented out my own BWV points (over Food and Wine) and rented a Hilton Head reservation for June - all through David's. I wasn't going to risk HHI being available at seven months.

Now, I don't think that makes much of a difference when it comes to standard view rooms for Food and Wine - there just aren't enough of those and few people are going to go through the hassle of walking for a renter. But it could tip the scales for BWVs still having anything available for F&W at seven months for certain nights.

 

[Dean]

I'm not a DVC owner and never rented points. From my view as an outsider, it seems somewhat unfair to DVC members if they can't reserve a room when they want while a non-member can simply because they rent from an owner who books and then never uses the reservation. DVC members should have priority over non-members, IMHO.

Either way it's an owner using the points. Whether it's for actual occupancy or rental, to me there's no difference.

I've said in the past that I believe the brokers are over the line for commercial usage but I tend to agree with many here that it's not feasible to police this in it's current situation. They'd really have to go after the brokers directly related to copyright, websites and various methods. Since the POS specifically allows rentals by members it'd be difficult to do much more. We'll see if anything happens but I'm doubting it as far as rule changes are concerned. They could add in various fees and restrictions in general but it'd have more affect on members in general than this specific situation.

 

[Brian Noble]

There is a simpler explanation for why it is getting harder to book things: travel demand is up. More owners are using their points (vs. letting them expire or depositing them to RCI in hopes they can use them later), and that just makes things harder overall. Naturally, the in-demand rooms/seasons will see the impact most strongly. This is not unique to DVC. If you read any "general" timeshare boards, you will find that many other timeshare systems are seeing the same phenomenon.

 

[ziravan]

The modern problem of having trouble getting a reservation at 11 months out for Boardwalk standard or boardwalk view during F&W has little to nothing to do with brokers, violation of any rule against profiting from renting points,or SSR having been built:

1. Brokers today typically operate via putting together an owner with renter with the owner actually making the reservation. Broker's are not known to get those reservations that are extemely difficult for even owners to get at 11 months out; the reason: they don't get owners who want to rent and also are willing to walk a reservation or go online exactly at 8 a.m. at 11 months out to make a reservation and then not have a rental if they cannot accomplsh it, i.e., owners do not want to put up with that hassle just to rent.

2. No one from SSR can make a reservation at Boardwalk until 7 months out. The only impact SSR has on that is that Boardwalk owners now know it is difficult to get other near park resorts during F&W at 7 months out and thus lean more towards reserving 11 months out at BWV.

3. An owner can rent a reservation by setting up the reservation using his own points in the name of the renter. That is usually what brokers arrange. There is no rule prohibiting owners from doing that and doing it for a profit. If Disney were to adopt one, it would be acting illegally, not the owners. The only rule is that members cannot transfer points to another owner for monetary value. The reason for the rule is so that Disney will not get caught in the middle of transfer transactions with someone complaining about Disney as the middle man if the transaction goes wrong and money is involved. But the rule is irrelevant to brokers who do rentals as described above which do not inviolve the act of transferring points.

4. The actual reasons why BWV standard and boardwalk view studios are now difficult to get even at 11 months out during Food & Wine are the following:

(a) Disney set up the resort to have only 15% boardwalk and 18% standard view, meaning the rooms most desired are low in number. Thus on that issue, Disney is at fault in choosing to make the most desired rooms low in number.

(b) F&W and Halloween Parties have become more and more popular as years progressed. It is Disney who created those, not brokers.

(c) The DVC population has now aged to the point that large numbers of owners, particularly at BWV, no longer have to travel based on the school schedules of their children and there has been a massive shift toward those owners reserving in the Fall when points are low (it is Disney who created the point requirements), weather is perfect, and they can get the fall events.

(d) From the beginning Disney has sold low number, 25 or more, point add-ons to owners. Although Disney kept minimums for new purchasers higher for a while, such as at 160 points, that essentially died with the Great Recession when Disney started lowering points needed by new purchasers to at times as low as 50 and for some time now 100. The Great Recession also led to a huge number of defaults that allowed Disney to foreclose and then resell the previosuly larger ownerships at clips of 50 or 100 points to new purchasers, including at Boardwalk. Meanwhile existing owners, including many who found they needed to downsize their ownerships, also sold more and more points as a result of the Great Recession in the resale market, very often selling those 25 to 75 point add-ons to new purchasers for a little more per point than larger contracts. The effect is that there is now a much larger percentage of owners at BWV than pre-Great Recession who have only enough BWV points to afford studios. (Disney is once again signficantly the cause for lowering its mimimum point requirements to new purchasers.)

(e) The modern problem relating to getting BWV standard and boardwalk view at 11 months out during F&W is a studio problem -- 2BRs are effected but that is only because most everyone is trying to reserve studios -- and that problem is the direct result of factors (a) through (d) above, with Disney and not any brokers being one of the main causes of the problem. Thus, if one wants to aim complaints about the 11 month reservation issue that exists today at BWV for F&W, the complaints should be aimed at Disney rather than brokers.

Great post but I do think that SSR not specifically, but generally DVC growth has had an impact.

As DVC grows, near park resorts during special times have higher competition at 7 months. That in turn, puts pressure on "buy where you want to stay".

Owners that years ago had more freedom at 7 months, because of the competition of growing points at that window, are now buying where they want to stay.

Once you buy where you want to stay, you can't be ignorant of the 11 month pressures. It's self-feeding.

Because of more demand at 7 months, more owners are buying specifically for the 11 month window and once you buy for that window, demand yields to the high priority times.

As a result, probably MOST of the BCV and BWV resale contracts are now going to owners looking to capitalize on the 11 month window. As DVC owners well know, that's for F&W and early Dec. There's an amplification effect of more owners specifically owning to book in those specific hard to get windows.

Indeed, this is EXACTLY why we say, buy where you want to stay.

 

[dmunsil]

How about a $95 convince fee, a resort parking fee or some other fee for non-members. Disney added the $95 booking fee and didn't say a word, apparently that's legal.

The $95 booking fee is for ancillary benefits that are not deeded. It would be harder (though not impossible) to add it for regular bookings.

Essentially all the changes people have mentioned in this thread would affect any booking made for someone other than the member, whether it was for a family member or for rental purposes. That would be a tough sell to the membership. The ability to reserve for guests is part of the deeded benefits, and in fact it's possible that having fees and limits for guests might violate Florida timeshare and condo law.

The deed gives you the right to rent out your vacation ownership. Disney didn't put that clause in there out of the goodness of their hearts. They either put it in because they're required to by law, or because their research told them it was important to buyers. Thus I don't think they're going to suddenly disallow rentals or have guests have significant limits relative to members.

 

[Dean]

Great post but I do think that SSR not specifically, but generally DVC growth has had an impact.

As DVC grows, near park resorts during special times have higher competition at 7 months. That in turn, puts pressure on "buy where you want to stay".

Owners that years ago had more freedom at 7 months, because of the competition of growing points at that window, are now buying where they want to stay.

Once you buy where you want to stay, you can't be ignorant of the 11 month pressures. It's self-feeding.

Because of more demand at 7 months, more owners are buying specifically for the 11 month window and once you buy for that window, demand yields to the high priority times.

As a result, probably MOST of the BCV and BWV resale contracts are now going to owners looking to capitalize on the 11 month window. As DVC owners well know, that's for F&W and early Dec. There's an amplification effect of more owners specifically owning to book in those specific hard to get windows.

Indeed, this is EXACTLY why we say, buy where you want to stay.

IMO bookings are more difficult for at least 3 reasons. SSR, travel in general being increased and that owners are more informed in general than before. SSR is not the only points looking at 7 months but IMO it is the main portion related to DVC points and has been the big change. This is true because it's a very large resort and for on property, it's the lowest demand resort thus both a higher % and total points looking at 7 months out. HH, and possibly VB but be higher but they are smaller resorts and were in place when the economy was good before and things were much easier to book. AKV might also be discussed in this light as well. IMO that affect stretches all the way to the 11 month window because of incremental affects starting at the 7 month window. Is this a problem, well it is in a sense but it's the way the system works and IMO, more choices are always better thus I'm not complaining just stating. Remember that those that own at higher demand resorts won't change if they can't get what they want at 7 months, usually at other high demand resorts. Thus they are in a sense trading to other resorts within their own trading group with some leakage to the lower demand resorts. New DVC resorts will only help this issue if, and only if, their inherent demand is higher than the average. It likely takes 100 high demand villas to equal one SSR villa related this issue.

 

[DVC Mike]

We should have a contest on which topics are discussed the most in the DVC forums. If such a list existed, topics related to "renting" and "walking" would certainly rank near the top, along with perks and housekeeping.

I'm just saying'

http://i235.************************************************************* DVC Mike - *******.com

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I agree that SSR and AKV points in the system make 7-month bookings harder. So people who own at a high demand resort may not change at 7 months from their 11 month booking. But, to be honest, this isn't a problem to be fixed. Nowhere in contract or in Florida condo/timeshare law is there a guarantee you can switch to BWV or VGF at 7 months. If home resort bookings take the inventory, that's the system working as it will. If some of those home resort bookings are for friends, family or renters, this is permitted by the deed and contract.

 

[Dean]

I agree that SSR and AKV points in the system make 7-month bookings harder. So people who own at a high demand resort may not change at 7 months from their 11 month booking. But, to be honest, this isn't a problem to be fixed. Nowhere in contract or in Florida condo/timeshare law is there a guarantee you can switch to BWV or VGF at 7 months. If home resort bookings take the inventory, that's the system working as it will. If some of those home resort bookings are for friends, family or renters, this is permitted by the deed and contract.

I agree, it's the system we signed up for. But some want to deny the significant of it's effect.

 

[freediverdude]

Some type of tiering system of the resorts would help with the 7 month issue, although that's what the higher points at the higher demand resorts are supposed to do, but clearly isn't enough. I too think the brokers are not what Disney intended with the renting privilege, and that should be shut off somehow. That would help too. I know, it sounds elitist, not trying to sound that way.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

I agree, it's the system we signed up for. But some want to deny the significant of it's effect.

I think the thing is that when people say that SSR makes booking other resorts at 11 months more difficult, that's just... not really? There may be some effect of more people booking their home resort at 11 months then not changing, but I doubt it's hugely significant. The expectation that you can get any room at any resort at 7 months was never the system's intent, and if anyone has had that expectation it's not the system's fault or the fault of rental brokers or even the fault of the large number of "non-premium" points from AKV and SSR.