ROTR Boarding group issues resolution thoughts

[bethwc101]

Please never say these words again. I'm sure you are a very nice person and your reply was well intentioned but your words are completely insensitive to people with disabilities and families travelling people disabilities.

There is no system that could ever be put in place that would make things equal for many people living with disabilities.

Disney has always been very accommodating for people with disabilities and families travelling with people with disabilities. I have witnessed this so many times over the years. There are times when they fail as well. Rise of the resistance is one of those times and there is no excuse.

I must disagree with you. ROTR has not been unfair with those with disabilities. They log in and get a BG just like everyone else. If they don't have a smartphone, they can line up over by buzz and get a pass that way. THEN once you have your BG you have to claim your DAS. The purpose of the DAS is so you don't have to wait in the crowded line with everyone else. You still do have to wait thought. The DAS just tells you to come back a little bit later once you have a confirmed BG. If you have a BG and person with disability, you will get a DAS. They aren't saying once you do get a BG then you have to enter another random poll to maybe get a DAS pass. No, you get it and you get to ride.

As stated by @Skyegirl1999 , @Malcon10t has a lot of experience travelling the parks using DAS services. And in the past they have been misused by many people, unfortuantely. This system disney has in place works great for those who actually have disabilities in their group and has cut back on the number of people abusing the system or even renting our their disability for others to take advantage of.

We have only had to use DAS 15-20 times when a certain family member travels with us, and it definitely does help with some problems that she has dealing with her autism (helps with less noise, less crowds especially when she gets upset). She will be traveling with us on our next trip and I think the DAS system for ROTR is perfectly fair just with all the other rides and that Disney has actually done a lot of accommodations for those with disabilities.

Edited: Skyegril to Skyegirl

 

[EmJ]

OOps, i meant to reply to:


2 tries looks like this:
HH
HT
TH
TT
There are 4 outcomes, and 3 of them include at least 1 heads. 75% chance.

3 tries looks like
HHH
HHT
HTT
HTH
THT
THH
TTH
TTT
There are 8 outcomes, and 7 of them include at least 1 heads. 87.5% chance (7/8)

I actually understood this! Although not strictly ROTR related, does anyone want to figure out the probability that my family receives at least one pilot card? There are three of us. I spent an HOUR trying to do this math, using a great many sheets of paper and, at one point, my old graphing calculator from high school, and then my brain broke and I remembered why I picked a job that does not involve the math

 

[Malcon10t]

I actually understood this! Although not strictly ROTR related, does anyone want to figure out the probability that my family receives at least one pilot card? There are three of us. I spent an HOUR trying to do this math, using a great many sheets of paper and, at one point, my old graphing calculator from high school, and then my brain broke and I remembered why I picked a job that does not involve the math

There are 3 of you. There are 6 positions. 3/6 reduces to 1/2 or 50%.....

 

[Malcon10t]

Well, of course; that goes without saying. Anything for Neil

I spoke with the guide accompanying Christina Aguillara this past weekend, and both Sat and Sun she got "denied" as in the ride broke down during her time and they didn't get to ride.....

 

[PaladinButters]

You are correct in saying that after you have flipped a coin a million times, the odds at that moment are back to 50/50. But that wasn’t what was being discussed

The original post spoke of “gaining an edge” and I was tiring to say that long term probability might not be the best metric to look at for something like that. Helpful if you want the odds to bet/gamble on someone getting a BG but it wouldn’t help you get one on any given day. There’s no edge.

It’s not really a coin flip anyway or 50/50. It’s more like the fine print on a sweepstakes - many will enter, few will win.

 

[smartlabelprint]

In my opinion, the boarding group system is a complete failure. There needs to be an off-site and in advance system to let people know if they are going to be on the ride or not.

Ideally, a potion of BG could be allowed 60 days out for resort guests, another portion at 30 days, and then the rest first come first serve.

The play the lottery system is set up right now really isn't fair to people who are doing once-in-a-lifetime trips. it really only benefits those of us who go to Disney all the time or have annual passes. If they want to keep the lottery system as is they should enable it so you can know the evening before and let families make plans.

Also, the current system is borderline draconian for people with disabilities. When I say borderline I I am being kind with my words. There is no DAS system in place yet

I think that Disney needs to reduce people's expectations. Call this a soft opening because the ride isn't really open until it becomes part of the regular fastpass system.

There is a DAS system and we will be using it.

 

[coaches24]

All the info I read about BG's seems to revolve around cell phones and getting them with the app. But I see mentioned that you can also get BG passes from the FP machines near buzz. So my question is how does that work if the BGs are all gone with in seconds/ minutes of park opening? Are some BGs only available from the app and some only from the machines near Buzz? Because based on what I am reading in this thread it doesn't sound possible for anyone to get to the buzz FP machines in time to get a BG.

 

[dieumeye]

I actually understood this! Although not strictly ROTR related, does anyone want to figure out the probability that my family receives at least one pilot card? There are three of us. I spent an HOUR trying to do this math, using a great many sheets of paper and, at one point, my old graphing calculator from high school, and then my brain broke and I remembered why I picked a job that does not involve the math

Well, assuming a fair draw, (which it is not, because it's handed out by CMs and not necessarily random), then the possible draws for Pilot, Gunner, Engineer for a group of three are:

PPG
PPE
PGG
PGE
PEE
GGE
GEE

There are seven possible outcomes for a group of three, five of them include at least one person as pilot. So 5/7, which is just over 70% that one of the outcomes will include at least one pilot. I'm not an expert, but I believe that's the case.

Now back to Boarding Group discussion...

 

[smartlabelprint]

Please never say these words again. I'm sure you are a very nice person and your reply was well intentioned but your words are completely insensitive to people with disabilities and families travelling people disabilities.

There is no system that could ever be put in place that would make things equal for many people living with disabilities.

Disney has always been very accommodating for people with disabilities and families travelling with people with disabilities. I have witnessed this so many times over the years. There are times when they fail as well. Rise of the resistance is one of those times and there is no excuse.

I’m pretty sure someone will have responded before me...but I’m pretty sure malcon10t and their family use DAS. We also do and I agree with her statement.

 

[smartlabelprint]

All the info I read about BG's seems to revolve around cell phones and getting them with the app. But I see mentioned that you can also get BG passes from the FP machines near buzz. So my question is how does that work if the BGs are all gone with in seconds/ minutes of park opening? Are some BGs only available from the app and some only from the machines near Buzz? Because based on what I am reading in this thread it doesn't sound possible for anyone to get to the buzz FP machines in time to get a BG.

No. They are all from the same selection. So, not as many people will be able to get a paper BG assignment.

 

[PaladinButters]

I actually understood this! Although not strictly ROTR related, does anyone want to figure out the probability that my family receives at least one pilot card? There are three of us. I spent an HOUR trying to do this math, using a great many sheets of paper and, at one point, my old graphing calculator from high school, and then my brain broke and I remembered why I picked a job that does not involve the math

100% if you ask the cast member nicely and there aren’t already a bunch of people trying to stand to the side to do this.

 

[EmJ]

There are 3 of you. There are 6 positions. 3/6 reduces to 1/2 or 50%.....

Please for the love of all that is good and holy, tell me that is not the answer. I had a graphing calculator for crying out loud.

 

[EmJ]

Well, assuming a fair draw, (which it is not, because it's handed out by CMs and not necessarily random), then the possible draws for Pilot, Gunner, Engineer for a group of three are:

PPG
PPE
PGG
PGE
PEE
GGE
GEE

There are seven possible outcomes for a group of three, five of them include at least one person as pilot. So 5/7, which is just over 70% that one of the outcomes will include at least one pilot. I'm not an expert, but I believe that's the case.

Now back to Boarding Group discussion...

I like this answer better, lol. Higher probability and I feel less dumb.

Anyway, sorry to interrupt. Back to our regularly scheduled programming!

 

[nutshell]

In my opinion, the boarding group system is a complete failure. There needs to be an off-site and in advance system to let people know if they are going to be on the ride or not.

Ideally, a potion of BG could be allowed 60 days out for resort guests, another portion at 30 days, and then the rest first come first serve.

The play the lottery system is set up right now really isn't fair to people who are doing once-in-a-lifetime trips. it really only benefits those of us who go to Disney all the time or have annual passes. If they want to keep the lottery system as is they should enable it so you can know the evening before and let families make plans.

Also, the current system is borderline draconian for people with disabilities. When I say borderline I I am being kind with my words. There is no DAS system in place yet

I think that Disney needs to reduce people's expectations. Call this a soft opening because the ride isn't really open until it becomes part of the regular fastpass system.

It’s not a lottery system.

DAS is in place.

 

[MonocularVision]

The original post spoke of “gaining an edge” and I was tiring to say that long term probability might not be the best metric to look at for something like that. Helpful if you want the odds to bet/gamble on someone getting a BG but it wouldn’t help you get one on any given day. There’s no edge.

It’s not really a coin flip anyway or 50/50. It’s more like the fine print on a sweepstakes - many will enter, few will win.

I took that advice as saying “how to increase your chances of getting a BG” not necessarily talking about a single day, but I see your point. That’s fair.

As for the sweepstakes comparison, I disagree. The assumption right now is that a BG has approximately 100 folks. If that is the case, there are approximately 10,000 folks per day that can ride based on an average of 100 BGs getting to ride. Considering the average daily attendance and how many are actually getting there at opening, I would say your odds are closer to 50/50 than a sweepstakes.

 

[Heather07438]

The original post spoke of “gaining an edge” and I was tiring to say that long term probability might not be the best metric to look at for something like that. Helpful if you want the odds to bet/gamble on someone getting a BG but it wouldn’t help you get one on any given day. There’s no edge.

It’s not really a coin flip anyway or 50/50. It’s more like the fine print on a sweepstakes - many will enter, few will win.

I think there's 2 things getting crossed here. If from the start you have 2 days to flip heads, you have 75% chance between those days. If you look at it on Day 2 (regardless of what happened on Day 1) you're back to the 50/50 chance. But we're not looking just at Day 2, we are combining both days.

 

[midnight star]

Well, assuming a fair draw, (which it is not, because it's handed out by CMs and not necessarily random), then the possible draws for Pilot, Gunner, Engineer for a group of three are:

PPG
PPE
PGG
PGE
PEE
GGE
GEE

There are seven possible outcomes for a group of three, five of them include at least one person as pilot. So 5/7, which is just over 70% that one of the outcomes will include at least one pilot. I'm not an expert, but I believe that's the case.

Now back to Boarding Group discussion...

This just gave me a horrible flashback to AP statistics lol

 

[ckb_nc]

BGs twice a day would allow for folks to get later (say 2pm) but not sure what happens if say the morning groups are running late because of break downs? Do they now limit the 2pm BGs to a calculated plan?

I like BGs over stand bys - I remember when the Frozen character meet at Mk was like a 6 hr posted wait with FP basically impossible. It was a mad dash each morning to run to get in line. Crazy town. For a character meet. In the summer in Florida (the last part was in the AC inside thankfully). And the character meet was not a ride that could go down.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

Moving this discussion from the ROTR Superthread (2/03/20) over here where it belongs:

Let's talk about fairness. Is it fair that there are people posting here that they have gotten the chance to ride ROTR multiple times since it opened 2 1/2 weeks ago? Is it fair that some are posting about the low boarding group #'s they have received repeatedly due to their becoming familiar with the process?

I know people will push back on any suggestion that they should be somehow limited in their access to the ride. They might say that they have an Annual Pass, and should be allowed to ride it every day they choose, so long as they're there for the 8:00/9:00 boarding group dance.

But what is the most fair? And what is the most fair for those who might only be at the park for a day or two, versus the AP who has the ability to come every single day or every single week?

Well, in any case, Disney has settled on a BG procedure, and I doubt they're going to alter it at this point. Regardless of the idea that's suggested. But I think in an effort to make it more fair for the infrequent visitor, they should put some restriction on the ability to get into a boarding group, for those who have already experienced the attraction. Perhaps a lock out, where if you've ridden within the last 7 days, you are unable to join a boarding group until 10 minutes after they've opened. So if you ride on Saturday, then come back on Sunday, you can't get into a group during the 1st 10 minutes, which will enable others who have not been in one yet, to have first shot.

I just think it's not fair that someone can roll up to the park each day, get a low boarding group #, and then be off the ride by Noon, while someone from out of town, may get stuck in Group #100, and have to wait 10-12 hours to get on......Maybe. If someone loves the ride so much they want to ride again and again, they should be the ones who have to wait hours and hours for that additional chance, not the 1 time visitor.

As I tell my kids..... life isn’t fair. Quite frankly, these are first world problems. I don’t think people in third world countries feel sorry for anyone because they can’t get a BG for ROTR. I personally wouldn’t plan a trip to Disneyland or WDW that hinged on the hope that I get a BG. I’d either wait until it gets easier, or make sure I’m cool with not getting to ride. We were lucky and got one, but we were completely prepared that we wouldn’t, and quite frankly even though we live in San Diego, getting one again isn’t going to happen, because I just can’t get to the parks any earlier with my kids. It’s too much stress. I’m more annoyed with how chaotic this has made rope drop than anything else!

You may want to post your thoughts here: https://www.disboards.com/threads/boarding-group-issues-resolution-thoughts.3787676/

The idea of some sort of limitation on the number of times (one) you can ride in a certain time period has been floated by a few others as well. Unfortunately, the reality is that any system Disney puts in place is going to disappoint those who it does not favor. Some AP's are already upset because they feel "blocked out" since they can't practically arrive at opening time with work and other life commitments. As with beauty, fairness is in the eye of the beholder

I do not have anything to say to the issue of fairness. That is your opinion and this is a forum for opinions. What you are saying is 100% valid IMO. Others are 100% valid to agree or disagree.

I do have something to say about the people who have ridden multiple times who have gotten low BGs. I want to know what they did so I can do it myself. While I do want everyone to have a great DLR experience, even more I want to have a great experience for myself and my family/friends with me. That is another reason for forums like this - to get tips. Which is another 100% valid reason to come to a forum like this.

I don't know... as someone coming from out of country (I havent been since 2008!) I will be bummed if we don't get a BG.... but we will have a 5 day park hopper and I would be MORE pissed if we rode once and then that was it for the 5 days because we were locked out, and who knows when we can come again, which would be according to your suggestion.

Nothing is going to be fair for everyone. Disney did what it thought would appease the highest number of people, but there will always be people upset about whatever approach they took. If I lived AT ALL close, I'd have ridden it numerous times by now too, so I can hardly fault people who do the same.

Personally, I'm just thankful for this super helpful board giving me such great tips! I hope everyone who wants to ride it gets a chance to do so, and sooner rather than later.

To me it's not a matter of fairness but of preparedness & park management. As a local AP, I work 40 hours a week 8am to 5pm. I don't have an opportunity to be at the park at 6am or 7am every day as you say or even every single week. I've got kids with weekend activities and Sunday morning church activities. For the occasional visitor, who is probably staying at or near the property and is likely on vacation, I feel has a greater opportunity to get a BG pass then I would. IF staying for multiple days, there's multiple chances to ride.

There's a lot of planning involved in getting to experience this amazing ride, as the nearly 200 page thread testifies. As Edna says, "Luck favors the prepared".

Well, with my scenario you would not be completely locked out from getting into a boarding group again. You would just be locked out initially, which would allow those who have not ridden recently the chance at a lower boarding group.

No method is perfect. I just think that this is merely an extension of the 1 ride per day limitation that already exists, and it creates an easier environment for those trying to ride for the 1st time.

But this is a Me, Me, Me country, and even the comments reflect that. It is my opinion that it is completely fair that if 2 families are side by side at 8 AM, one family all rode yesterday, while the other ended up in a high backup group # that was never called. People will say that Today, they should each have an equal shot at being in group #1 versus group #110. I am not one of those people.

Or that visitors are limited to a single ride opportunity per visit. -- some say if they put in the effort for opening, they should get the opportunity to ride again if they so choose to wait in some type of line. The computations are endless.

At least we that the other thread to enjoy ; while we give fellow DISboard attendees as much a path forward to success to join the Resistance!

I don't know about the "me me me country" comment...
In your scenario, that makes total sense. But is it more or less fair for me to be locked out in that 5 days time from when it may be another 12 years before I come back? Is that any different than the AP who can come, under that system, once every week? Should I not be able to ride 5 times in 5 days if I can, since I won't be able to again for months or (more likely) years? And someone else might be there for one day every month, but that still equals way more than me, even though they aren't consecutive.

Or the argument I've heard that, "Well, I can't take work off to be there at park opening..." but I have to take work off for our visit so is one more fair than the other?

I'm just using myself as an example to show that no system is actually fair.

And that word is tricky. Fair doesn't mean equal. If it did, it wouldn't be fair that someone might wear glasses since I don't since that isn't equal (my favourite example since it is just so ridiculous). Fairness is people getting what they need. And, as a previous poster said, no one technically NEEDS to ride this; it is an ultimate first-world situation.

Technically, fairness means: in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate
without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage

Does being there frequently give an unfair advantage? Perhaps. But I'd say frequenting this board probably does moreso. (At least, that's my hope for when I go!)

I totally see your point on the issue, but I have yet to see or hear a suggestion anywhere (and do please check out that thread!) that is totally equitable. There are always people it is unfair for.

That being said, this thread is awesome for giving us a bit of an advantage!

I am a "local AP" who actually thinks/cares a lot about the experience of infrequent visitors (which is one of the reasons I spend a lot of time on these boards and in the parks trying to offer assistance).

As stated by others, everyone has their own idea of what's fair. Interestingly, on this thread, there have definitely been more "out of town visitors" riding multiple times than locals, and I most of the people I know personally haven't even attempted to ride yet. As we see from this thread, people doing bit of research have plenty of opportunity to become "familiar with the process," as many readers here are scoring low BG #s their first time trying - so repeat customers don't really have a serious "edge" there. I think that's important. Anecdotally, a lot of the people showing up in the parks and being confused by/complaining about the BG system are the local/AP crowd who roll in at noon and expect to get in a line.

I myself have ridden twice now (the second time was with my first-time riding husband), and I have little interest in investing the time and energy to get over there early enough to ride again anytime soon... it's a lot of ruckus. I do totally understand why someone on a multi-day trip would want to ride at least twice, and I think it would be a shame if they couldn't. But I think the "locals riding repeatedly" population is probably pretty darn low due to the BG system - I actually know more local APs avoiding the parks due to ROTR than anything!

I do understand the sentiment behind people who want to limit repeat rides, and I wish everyone who wanted to ride got to do so easily! Hopefully the ride will continue to improve capacity and allow more people to experience it.

The unfortunate reality is that the system favors those who know it backwards and forwards, either through research or experience. And I'm not just talking about boarding groups.

One day between Christmas and New Year, my family and I rode Space mountain with back to back cancelled fastpasses thanks to maxpass while the standby wait was over 120 minutes.

Even before MaxPass, after a horrible day where we got nothing done, I researched my bottom off and learned how to maximize the Fastpass system. The next two days we waited in line minimally while some folks waited for hours.

We knew to make reservations for dining, and while we waited for our table watched the hostess turn away party after party saying "Sorry, we're reservation only right now."

Right after the new Fantasmic Show came out, we knew where to go to get fastpasses. Lots of people didn't and found out too late.

Now, in all of these cases, we had a leg up on the other guests because we knew how the system worked.

This board here is free. It's no exclusive club. Clearly, because they let me in. The information needed to do the things you want to do and maximize your time is out there, free, and available.

We are polite to everyone. We follow all the rules. We don't cut in line. We treat the CMs with kindness even when things are going poorly in a given moment. But, like many things in life, luck favors the prepared. And being prepared means less stress, more fun, and, yeah, that little feeling of superiority that I can go to the parks on the busiest days of the year and have the time of my life because I did my homework...though I tell everyone who will listen my "secrets" because they aren't secrets at all.

I probably won't get down there to even attempt to ride while BGs are still a thing. I am a little bitter that our ROTR didn't open in time for my end of year trip in 2019. It was supposed to be open based on the information available when I booked the trip in March. I had to endure Disneyland without it. Somehow, though, I had an amazing time. Somehow, I think that the folks who are visiting from some distance and don't experience all of the Resort all of the time will also manage to have a magical time even if they don't get on. And something tells me that the ones for whom it is a real priority will do the necessary research to make it happen.

Okay great most APs are local. However there is a chunk of us who are not. And thus are stuck in similar situation to regular park goers. In we only get one or two shots at riding at most. Should I be blocked out just because I am in town a couple of times a year for medical stuff. And thus find having an AP is more cost effective despite not being local?

Thats my main issue with blocking APs. You make a blanket assumption that all of us live locally and thus have regular attempts to ride. I have appointments in three weeks. Because of the way my Disney is scheduled around them and not the other way around I don’t even know if the BG I will hopefully grab I will actually get to use since my entire morning is going to be at the doctors though I’m going to try my hardest. Im hoping even with this rides luck that if I miss Friday I’ll get better luck Sunday (I have plans for Saturday that means no BG for me). If I got blocked then I would have no chance at all and be put under extreme stress in trying to decide if there’s even a chance.

I get this probably didn’t win me any favors By stating my intent but due to the rides own structure I can’t even guarantee what my chances are to ride it until my BG is assigned Friday morning. I have every intention of riding. However when you have two doctors appointments, one that’s an hour round trip from property, that takes an hour each like I do? You don’t know how ROTR will favor you or not.

Basically: please stop assuming all APs are local and have the same chance. I am really, really tired of having to point this out.

Also anyone can familiarize themselves with the ride process. That is not excluive to repeat riders. You just have to sit down and read. There are dozens of articles out there to do so. Entire FB posts. You don’t even need to be on here to know how to get on the ride. You just need to spend give

I don't think anyone could have said it better than iornband 74

We got ride twice in the first two days. We were prepared to not ride at all. Felt incredibly blessed to ride it twice. Going to WDW again in March and we are are discussing which days we will get up early and try in Orlando. I would not hate the idea that if say I got a BG on one day I was "blacked: out for the next day - but I would want APs to have longer black outs than multi-day pass holders. which APs would undoubtedly hate even more. I keep saying the BGs seem the most fair thing to date short of just a single standby queue which seems completely unmanageable. I was there the weekend they opened mine Train with no FPs but the ride was much higher capacity than this one.

Boy I totally agree with all this! I’m a local annual passholder who has ridden once and probably won’t be trying again any time soon! It’s too hard to get there so early with my kids. Actually, I know a lot of local AP holders and I’m the only one I know so far who has ridden.

 

[theluckyrabbit]

Adding more posts to the above discussion:

But you're in the vast minority of AP holders .. it's not people like you that are going to be taking advantage and hogging the available BG spots by riding over and over again. Having a limitation isn't targeting ALL APs. It's targeting APs that are frequent repeat riders.

The fact is that repeat riders WILL perfect the craft of getting BGs... just like we will here talking about it so incessantly!

The ULTIMATE in fair is having a system that promotes a way for everyone to ride. I just can't get the picture of the 8 year old girl crying out of my head.

Re all the talk about BGs and fairness & etc -

No, you can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometime you find
You get what you need
—Mick Jagger and Keith Richards

We need days at Disney...we want RotR...don’t let not getting RotR ruin a Disney day.

We don't even need days at Disney. We're lucky to get that, with or without Rise. And while I feel for the crying 8 year old, hopefully after the tears fall and dry she is able to get on with her day and discover that life did not end and have a great day with her family making awesome memories. Kids are resilient if we let them be. And then when she does get on, she'll appreciate it that much more.

This, too, shall pass. In a year or so we'll be trying to remember what all the drama was about. Fortunately we'll have this thread to remind us

I’m going to step back from this rather then keep going at this point. Because I know at this point part of the reason I’m getting worked up is the fact I’ve never been fond of this system to start. I’ve got multiple chronic illnesses with hairline triggers that I couldn’t predict if I wanted to. One of those is migraines. And a blanket block of all APs for a period would screw me over big time. I don’t mind the holiday parties because I can still buy my way in and it feels like I’m getting my way in. That doesn’t feel like it would be the case if I had to get a ticket just to try riding again because of a medical issue that has a mind of its own.

I feel bad for the kid but as others have said sometimes don’t work the way you want. And as a reminder having just been on a trip of that nature sometimes APs are with non APs. And sometimes those non APs are on once in a lifetime trips and sometimes those are not children.