Rivers of America and the Riverboat

[NiceBlue]

I understand it is not just getting rid of Tom Sawyer Island, but also the River’s of America and the steam boat. One of two things that will happen if Cars Land was to replace both of those, is that Cars Land will not be that popular and not attract that many more quests, then why cause a major disruption to Frontierland. On the other hand Cars Land may be very popular then why put it in the most crowded of all Disney’s parks. In either case It would make more sense to put it in a less crowded park, one with not as many rides. They would be copying a ride from California Adventure, a park that has not been doing very well and put it in the best performing park. Now, getting rid of Tom Sawyer Island is not the worst part of this, but getting rid of the Rivers of America and the Riverboat is. What they would be doing is trading a long ride, 20 minutes for the boat, replacing it with a short, less than 5 minute car ride. Plus the Riverboat as well as the river is a beautiful part of Frontierland, so it benefits guests who have never rode it. Watching the boat go by gives a great feeling of the 19th century Frontier, while Cars Land does not fit very well with the frontier. Further, it just seems like it is going to be a mess replacing it and will just reduce the aesthetic quality of the land. Now, replacing Tom Sawyer Island would not be that bad, but it would be better to replace it with something from a more successful park than California Adventure. I would suggest New Orleans Square from the original Disneyland. This is a beautifully done area that would fit with the frontier and with the riverboat. Travel to the island could be improved while still allowing the riverboat to pass by putting in a movable bridge, maybe a drawbridge. The riverboat passes every half hour so guests could cross the bridge most of the time. There could even be two bridges, one by Thundermountain and another by the Haunted Mansion. This means quests could leave the island at any time. Disney should learn from their lack of success in building parks not patterned after the original Disneyland. Epcot, Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom, California Adventure and Paris Disney Studios have all not lived up to expectations. The only exception was Tokyo Disneysea, which is not owned by Disney. Disney should learn not to mess with something that works by replacing it with something that doesn’t work.

Tom,

 

[tvguy]

With half of the land Walt bought for Disney World still undeveloped, why are they taking ANYTHING out? Just build it on the eastern edge of Tomorrow Land, or north of Fantasyland. Problem solved.

 

[tony67]

So in numerous trips to Disney - sometimes 3 times in a year - I've never had any interest in the riverboat or Tom Sawyer Island.
I may have done it on my first drip way back when - but I have no memory of it at all.

Taking the Ferry to MK - yes that is iconic.

Replacing it with a cars land will be more popular overall IMO - very few people go to Disney for Tom Sawyer Island or the Riverboat.
I do agree they need more for the grandparents who might pay for the trip and don't do any rides at all - but that really is not what Disney is about anymore. Not sure Disney knows what they are about anymore - probably why I have been 2 times since the pandemic - and that was only because a sick family member asked me to go. (BTW - I go to Orlando several times a year - mostly for Universal - so Disney has lost me)

Also there are probable maintenance issues around the boat, the river and the island. Also security issues - they had someone living on it and there was a bear at one point - so things they really don't want in the news. I'm guessing there have been other incidents and its hard to police it. I'm sure there have been couples who have snuck off to do "things" - and if you don't think that is true - I've seen things in the park itself - so the island is not a stretch.

As for Frontier land and liberty square - I do enjoy it - but I don't feel that current Disney management likes it.
I was very surprised on my last trip that the shooting gallery was still there - and it was free - my memories of it were paying 25 cents.
Not long after that they announced its gone and it will be a lounge or some such - not happy with that - but again not surprised.

My concern for whatever they do is I don't feel the current Imagineering team is a shadow of what it once was.
I think Tiana is an example of that - just the glee that had destroying everything to do with Splash Mountain . (That may be a rumor but sounds about right)

Galaxy's Edge - again a total miss IMO - how much more popular would it be had it been the movies people actually care about and not this made up two suns tripe.

Why was the bar not the cantina from the original movie - you know that iconic scene that even non fans (like myself) know well.

Galaxy's edge is not bad - but for many its a one and done. The rides are way overrated as far as I am concerned. it's impressive but not something I need to do ever again. I still always do the old ride that has been there forever.

Same for that hotel - the people who could afford that and would be into it are probable more interested in the original three movies.

Anyway - I'm sort of surprised by the reaction to this - especially since many of the same folks who were all in on Tiana are against this.
BTW - I think they should have done something original with Tiana - not just a retrofit - and not brining up the salt mines which have there own historical issues.

 

[rotlex]

I'm afraid of how this is going to destroy the overall feel of perhaps my favorite areas of the park. Right now, Liberty Square, haunted mansion, river boat, TS island etc. seem to flow very nicely with Frontierland all the way back to the train station between splash and big thunder. How in the heck is "cars land" going to fit with this overall theme? Just seems like there is no consideration being given to keeping themes consistent across the park areas. Hopefully the imagineers surprise us but I'm starting to have serious doubts after recent changes in the parks.

 

[NiceBlue]

Steve (rotlex), I agree that car land may destroy the overall feel of Frontierland, particularly removing the riverboat. A good number of people do ride it and even for people who don’t the boat and the river, adds a pleasant feeling to the area.

Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

TV Guy and Tony67, the issue is not finding space, there is plenty of underutilized land within the Railroad perimeter, the issue has to do with building a major new ride in what is perhaps the most crowded Disney park (it may be tied with California Disneyland). Particularly when there are also so many rides in the MK. According to Parkeology Challenge the MK has 26 rides, Epcot has 11, Hollywood Studios has 9 and Animal Kingdom has 8. And according to aecom, theme park index in 2022, attendance at Hollywood Studios was only 63.6% of the MK, Epcot was only 58.4% of the MK and Animal Kingdom was only 52.7% of the MK. And people do ride the riverboat and it adds atmosphere to the land. There is a relatively boring stretch along Sunset Boulevard, in Hollywood Studios, which contains foodstands and west of that an employee’s parking lot and support buildings. This could be used for a Car’s Land without causing a huge disruption and it would provide additional rides for Hollywood Studios, without adding to crowding in MK. A side issue is improving access to Tom Sawyer Island. Putting Car Land in the MK is a bad idea.

Tom,

 

[tony67]

Putting Car Land in the MK is a bad idea.

Well I have to agree putting it in HS makes way more sense - but they have other plans for there as well.
Could they retheme RnR to Cars? I like Aerosmith and all - but I'm really tired of the whole preshow and theme.
The ride is still fun and all but the band is not relevant today.
(BTW - I have met Steven Tyler and he is a surprisingly nice guy - so not like I am not a fan)

I also have to wonder if adding cars land will then open the speedway up for something new down the road.
Yeah that is sacrilege - I know.

 

[CynBeth]

We ride the riverboat every trip. I like NiceBlue’s idea and also the ones who said it belongs at HS. Too bad they did not poll the big Disney fans about the idea.

 

[RickNJane]

Unfortunately permits have been filed and it is a done deal. That is why they did not say anything about it at D23. Did not want to kill the buzz.

As some stated there is a lot of land around MK. Unfortunately it is not zoned for building as the whole area is a swamp. It takes a lot of engineering and expense to get an area ready for building. After looking at the permits, they are building a large gravel landing pad in the area that will become Villians Land. This area will be used as a base to store equipment, supplies, construction offices etc for cars land. It will also prep the site for the upcoming construction for Villians land. 2 birds one stone sorta thing.

What it boils down to is cost. This is the much cheaper option. Current Disney execs are very much spreadsheet driven. Tom Sawyer Island and the Riverboat just don't have the revenue for the space they take. It is sad really since Disney parks are more than just rides. It is the environment that makes the magic and not thrill rides. VIbs over Rides! I have spent the whole day in a park and only ridden 1 or 2 rides and had a BLAST! If the parks becomes just a collection of thrill rides, the magic will fade. and that will be a sad day.

 

[RickNJane]

Perhaps off topic, but same subject. Then location for Monsters Inc is still very much in discussion. It seems that there are 2 choices, Muppets Square and Animation Courtyard. There are lots of blog posts about it. You can email Disney as outlined here and let them know your opinion. I did and got a reply. You can also let them know how you feel about Rivers of America. It won't change anything, but may help future decisions.

 

[NiceBlue]

CynBeth, thank you for adding your thoughts and I also wish they poll the big Disney fans about the idea.

Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

Disneyland is a remarkably designed and imagined theme park and by extension the Magic Kingdom and the four other Disneylands. However, after Walt died there has been a demonstrated lack of imagination and foresight in regard to the non-Disneyland like parks. Epcot is simply a copy of a World's Fair, Hollywood Studio is a copy of Universal Studios’ tour and an attempt at combining a working studio with a theme park both which failed, despite trying to deny it Animal Kingdom is primarily a zoo and a safari ride, California Adventure is an attempted copy of California within the state of California and Paris Disney Studios was a mashed together park and an attempt to copy Hollywood Studios. Each of these five parks do significantly worse in regard to attendance than the Disneylands partnered with them. As mentioned earlier according to aecom, theme park index in 2022, attendance at Hollywood Studios was only 63.6% of the MK, Epcot was only 58.4% of the MK and Animal Kingdom was only 52.7% of the MK. Also, California Adventure had only 53.3% of the attendance at Disneyland and Paris Studios had only 53.8% the attendance at Paris Disneyland. The one exception is Tokyo’s Disneysea, which is the only one worth comparing to Disneyland, but that is not owned by Disney. Disneysea had 84.2% of the attendance at Tokyo Disneyland. So, I don’t believe that just because the powers that be decided to put Car Land in the MK that it will be good for the guests or for Disney’s bottom line.

Rick and Jane, the area I suggested to be used in Hollywood Studios is not swampland , there are already buildings there and I don’t believe it would be more costly than destroying the Rivers of America. You wrote “It is sad really since Disney parks are more than just rides. It is the environment that makes the magic.” I agree. Revenue doesn't come from individual rides or areas, but from people entering the park and they will enter the park if they have an enjoyable experience there. So as you wrote the environment is important. Plus a significant number of guests ride the riverboat. I did not propose that Tom Sawyer’s Island remain as is, but be replaced by something that is themed toward Frontierland and is pretty, like New Orleans Square which is already part of the second most successful park in the world. And it is not necessarily a done deal if enough people complain.

Tom,

 

[Simba's Mom]

You know, now that I've heard so many people mention "Why do they have to eliminate something-Walt wanted all this room for expansion", I'm wondering that too. And the Riverboat is a much photographed spot. I ride it often now (not so much when I was younger). And I remember taking my little ones on the Riverboat many years ago when one was too short for BTMRR and one was too timid. Meanwhile DH and my oldest went on BTMRR and waved.

 

[NiceBlue]

Simba’s Mom, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this and I’m glad you mentioned that the Riverboat is a much photographed spot. This shows that even if a guest may never ride it, it can still enhance their experience and result in their more likely to come back, but you did ride it and with your children and you had a positive experience. The riverboat is like the castle. How much revenue does the castle bring in, but what would happen to revenue if they tore down the castle? In an earlier post I wrote that “it is not necessarily a done deal if enough people complain” well here is an article entitled “Rumor: Disney Might Abandon Plans To Destroy Rivers America for Cars Land. https://thatparkplace.com/rumor-dis...s-to-destroy-rivers-of-america-for-cars-land/

Tom,

 

[fla4fun]

I will always be thankful that I took photos and videos from TSI. It’s such a shame to think that these views will be gone . . .

 

[tvguy]

TV Guy and Tony67, the issue is not finding space, there is plenty of underutilized land within the Railroad perimeter, the issue has to do with building a major new ride in what is perhaps the most crowded Disney park (it may be tied with California Disneyland). Particularly when there are also so many rides in the MK. According to Parkeology Challenge the MK has 26 rides, Epcot has 11, Hollywood Studios has 9 and Animal Kingdom has 8. And according to aecom, theme park index in 2022, attendance at Hollywood Studios was only 63.6% of the MK, Epcot was only 58.4% of the MK and Animal Kingdom was only 52.7% of the MK. And people do ride the riverboat and it adds atmosphere to the land. There is a relatively boring stretch along Sunset Boulevard, in Hollywood Studios, which contains foodstands and west of that an employee’s parking lot and support buildings. This could be used for a Car’s Land without causing a huge disruption and it would provide additional rides for Hollywood Studios, without adding to crowding in MK. A side issue is improving access to Tom Sawyer Island. Putting Car Land in the MK is a bad idea.

Tom,

I think this quote from Walt Disney sums it up. I
"The park means a lot to me in that it's something that will never be finished. Something that I can keep developing, keep plussing and adding to—it's alive. It will be a live, breathing thing that will need changes".

The issue as I have stated is, they can add Cars Land to the Magic Kingdom without exchanging it for an existing attraction. They need to plus the park. I am shocked that there are only 26 rides in the Magic Kingdom. In a smaller space Disneyland has 49.

 

[NiceBlue]

Fla4fun, thank you for the photos.

TVGuy, But they aren’t planning to plus the park.

Here is an example of the anger about the Car Land plans for Frontierland:

, 29 mins

Tom,

 

[NiceBlue]

Let’s say Disney proposed to tear down Cinderella's Castle and replace it with something that has nothing to do with Fantasyland and they say the castle is not an asset to the park because nobody rides it and so it brings in no revenue. That would be a terrible idea. Well that is like removing the Rivers of America and the Steamboat from Frontierland. However, in that case people do ride the Steamboat. I’ve read a suggestion that the Car ride could replace the Tomorrowland Speedway. This makes more sense. The car ride would fit Tomorrowland as well as the Speedway although I do not know if the car ride would be more popular than the Speedway, since the car ride is already in a park, California Adventure, that is not doing so well and if they were to be equally popular why endure the cost and disruption associated with the change. Three Disneyland-like parks are the three theme parks in the world with the highest attendance. There are many reasons why the Disneylands and the Magic Kingdom are so popular, one is that rides and attractions were not just plopped down randomly anywhere like in many amusement parks, but putting cars land in Frontierland is just plopping down that ride randomly. Here is an article that is primarily negative toward the changes. The few people who were somewhat in favor were for the most part in favor of redesigning Tom Sawyer’s Island and not eliminating the Riverboat or the River’s of America.

https://allears.net/2024/08/17/this...act-to-cars-expansion-news-for-magic-kingdom/
Tom,

 

[tvguy]

TVGuy, But they aren’t planning to plus the park.

Exactly. They need to get back to plussing the parks.

 

[HopperFan]

I think this quote from Walt Disney sums it up.
"The park means a lot to me in that it's something that will never be finished. Something that I can keep developing, keep plussing and adding to—it's alive. It will be a live, breathing thing that will need changes".

Disney Parks are not just about "plussing" but they will need "changes".





To OP ~

This is change.
This isn't blue sky rambling.
The decision has been made.
Permits have been filed.

This will be a huge plus to Disney World and is being embraced by MANY. It is very valuable real estate that will require much less hoops to jump through to build. Frontierland has been considered irrelevant and dead space to Disney for decades, they just didn't know what to do with it. They have a plan now that also solves their TSI problem.

The Riverboat and TSI have limited hours and are grossly underused. Disney is leaving money on the table by keeping this area as is. Putting in Cars, one of their popular IPs especially to boys and Villains (likely one of their most popular, high cash generating genres) is smart on many levels.

I compare this to Maelstrom. A ride that never had a wait, it was walk on. A ride that had a show at the end where everyone walked through the theater. When they announced the change to Frozen, people lost their minds. Guess what, it did exactly what Disney hoped, bring families of younger children to the park and it still has one of the longest lines 8 years later.

I get some folks are sentimental. Things change, not the first time to lose beloved attraction/views and won't be the last. Folks are excited, folks are embracing the change and it can't come soon enough. This will be cash generating for Disney, the areas will likely make Magic Kingdom a 2-3 day experience. Disney needed to think about putting in new things that will compete for days in the future with new things coming to Orlando theme park community.

Folks can have their own opinions and want things to go in different places, some might work and most probably won't work. I get it armchair Imagineering is fun conversation but irrelevant to what is happening in reality. This has been decided, Disney has a solid plan since permits are filed, and work will begin on the prepping land for the next step.

For every hater article there is one of support. The internet is full of "experts" telling Disney what to do. If folks are not happy with Disney, speak with your dollars.