Rivers of America and the Riverboat

[tvguy]

Disney Parks are not just about "plussing" but they will need "changes".

This is change.
This isn't blue sky rambling.
The decision has been made.
Permits have been filed.

This will be a huge plus to Disney World and is being embraced by MANY. It is very valuable real estate that will require much less hoops to jump through to build. Frontierland has been considered irrelevant and dead space to Disney for decades, they just didn't know what to do with it. They have a plan now that also solves their TSI problem.

The Riverboat and TSI have limited hours and are grossly underused. Disney is leaving money on the table by keeping this area as is. Putting in Cars, one of their popular IPs especially to boys and Villains (likely one of their most popular, high cash generating genres) is smart on many levels.

I compare this to Maelstrom. A ride that never had a wait, it was walk on. A ride that had a show at the end where everyone walked through the theater. When they announced the change to Frozen, people lost their minds. Guess what, it did exactly what Disney hoped, bring families of younger children to the park and it still has one of the longest lines 8 years later.

I get some folks are sentimental. Things change, not the first time to lose beloved attraction/views and won't be the last. Folks are excited, folks are embracing the change and it can't come soon enough. This will be cash generating for Disney, the areas will likely make Magic Kingdom a 2-3 day experience. Disney needed to think about putting in new things that will compete for days in the future with new things coming to Orlando theme park community.

Folks can have their own opinions and want things to go in different places, some might work and most probably won't work. I get it armchair Imagineering is fun conversation but irrelevant to what is happening in reality. This has been decided, Disney has a solid plan since permits are filed, and work will begin on the prepping land for the next step.

For every hater article there is one of support. The internet is full of "experts" telling Disney what to do. If folks are not happy with Disney, speak with your dollars.

Both Tom Sawyer Island and the Rivers Of America are classic Disney. What next? Get rid of Mickey, Minnie, Donald and Goofy?
Disney looked outside the box with California Adventure in 2001, and then had to spend $1 billion to fix all their mistakes. And how many times have they had to bring back the Main Street Electrical Parade because their guests demanded it. And it appears Disney is hearing the complaints. Like I said multiple times, just build Cars Land north of Fantasyland, or East of Tomorrowland. And like also was pointed out, the MK only has 26 rides, they need to catch up with Disneyland's 49.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I personally won't miss the riverboat at all. Disneyland still has one if you absolutely have to have it. And to be honest, if you're in to Mark Twain stuff, Hannibal MO is a great place to go. Lots of cities have a riverboat. It's time for it to go. Bring in the Cars attraction and the Villains.

 

[tony67]

Both Tom Sawyer Island and the Rivers Of America are classic Disney. What next? Get rid of Mickey, Minnie, Donald and Goofy?

Well..... with copyright things who knows.

There are already rumors about Hall of Presidents and of course you have Carousel of Progress.

The only this I see as a positive is I have much less reason to go to Disney - most of the stuff I enjoyed or had memories of is gone or re-imagined for a "modern" audience.

When I am at Universal I am always tempted to do a day or two at Disney - but then I look at the price and review the photos of my last trip and give it a miss.

I was tempted to just to the Halloween party to just do the rides, but now that it sold my decision was made for me.

If they had a reasonable Epcot entry for a day I would do it - I did Food and wine every year at Epcot for many years - but its a shadow of what it once was. $109 to buy overpriced food and drink - no seminars - no events - no nothing - thanks anyway.

 

[Minnesota!]

At some point, classic just becomes outdated and old and stale.

I was hesitant about Tiana/Splash and Tiana is WAY better. Everything Disney has added in the last few years (outside of whatever the new Epcot night show is - that was snooze-worthy) has been fantastic. We went 2 weeks ago for the first time since 2019 and all of the new things, in each park - each one made me feel like I was in WDW for the very first time. The theming, concepts, execution of it all is just SO good.

I have high hopes that Imagineering has found its way back from the lame stuff of the early 2010s (Fantasyland expansion, I am looking at you!).

 

[NiceBlue]

Hopper Fan, you make claims, but provide no facts. The five non-Disneyland parks, Epcot, Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom, California Adventure and Paris Disney Studios have significantly lagged behind their partnered Disneylands in attendance. Their attendance is less than ⅔ that of their partnered Disneylands. In particular the Cars ride would be taken from California Adventure, which has constantly lagged behind the original Disneyland. The Cars ride does not seem to have helped California Adventure very much. The record of Disney planners in regard to these five parks is not very good and does not give confidence in their imagination and foresight. The only non-Disneyland park that is doing well is Tokyo Disneysea which is not owned by Disney. These are facts. It seems that based on your logic it would be a good idea to tear down Cinderella's Castle and replace it with something that has nothing to do with Fantasyland because no one rides the castle. Would you advocate that? What they are planning is to disrupt the most successful park in the world, not just Disney. The success of the Magic Kingdom is partly due to rides not being just plopped down randomly, but that is what they are planning to do with the Cars ride. I am not proposing that Tom Sawyer’s Island remain, but suggested that it be replaced by an attraction from the second most successful park, that is New Orleans Square from Disneyland. The Disney planners are supposed to be so imaginative, but the five non-Disneyland parks are just copies from other venues not very original. If they are so imaginative they could come up with an idea to provide better access to the island without destroying the Rivers of America by building movable bridges.

Tom,

 

[cabanafrau]

I personally won't miss the riverboat at all. Disneyland still has one if you absolutely have to have it. And to be honest, if you're in to Mark Twain stuff, Hannibal MO is a great place to go. Lots of cities have a riverboat. It's time for it to go. Bring in the Cars attraction and the Villains.

For me it's not about Mark Twain stuff or being against Cars or the Villains at all. I found the riverboat and that area a bit of peace, a breath of fresh air amidst all the rest of the excitement and stimulation. I think they need to be mindful of not simply turning everything into stretches of pavement in between a conglomeration of attractions with little attention to placemaking and storytelling. It's probably not the best idea to leave little to no space for visitors to take a few moments to decompress, particularly with how so many seem to teeter on a knife's edge of aggression these days.

The riverboat was a great way to step back and still enjoy a pleasant ambience. Sure, a nice shady spot with benches is a very welcome sight when the sun is beating down and the feet are tired. Disney became Disney by offering things like the riverboat and taking the experience up a notch. Decades later and booming crowds while capacity was ignored and they operate with a pickpocket mentality and the only thing they seem willing to add is concrete.

 

[NiceBlue]

Cabanafrau, thanks for commenting. I agree that it is important to have space to decompress and the riverboat is a great way to do that. Attention to placement and storytelling is also important and just plopping something like the Car ride down where it doesn’t fit is not good storytelling. People like different things and people have and are riding the riverboat. Another thing. The Car ride seems somewhat redundant. There is also a car ride in Tomorrowland, the Speedway. Perhaps replacing the Speedway would be a good idea or better yet to put the Car ride in another park such as Hollywood Studios which is in need of more rides to attract more guests. It significantly lags behind MK both in the number of rides and in attendance. Disrupting MK while leaving the other parks alone does not make sense,

Tom,

 

[Minnie1222]

In an ideal situation, everything stays as is and Cars Land goes elsewhere. But since that's not happening, the next best thing is to visit the Rivers/Boat/Island one last time for a proper farewell, and to pause the negative remarks until the actual opening of the new attraction.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Hopper Fan, you make claims, but provide no facts. The five non-Disneyland parks, Epcot, Hollywood Studios, Animal Kingdom, California Adventure and Paris Disney Studios have significantly lagged behind their partnered Disneylands in attendance. Their attendance is less than ⅔ that of their partnered Disneylands. In particular the Cars ride would be taken from California Adventure, which has constantly lagged behind the original Disneyland.

Have you ever actually been to DCA/Disneyland or are you desperately grasping at straws to make an argument? DCA is a significantly smaller park than is Disneyland. It has significantly fewer attractions. DCA can easily be done in a day. Disneyland takes double that time. Hence why the latter gets more attendance. There is a huge project in the works out there but we don't know what form that will take, whether it's an expansion of both parks, a third park, or just what it is going to be. Moreover, what's at the namesake park has had far more years to build a following. For DCA to be drawing what AK is is remarkable.

The Cars ride does not seem to have helped California Adventure very much.

Wrong. The additions at DCA, including carsland has helped DCA significantly. I guarantee that it is helping DCA more than a river boat and an Island with virtually nothing to do on it is helping MK. Your argument doesn't hold up to actual scrutiny.

The record of Disney planners in regard to these five parks is not very good and does not give confidence in their imagination and foresight. The only non-Disneyland park that is doing well is Tokyo Disneysea which is not owned by Disney. These are facts.

No. Whether something is "doing well" or not is an opinion. In fact, TDS's attendance is just 1.1 million over what DCA's is. Now in my opinion, (see the difference?) that means DCA is doing good.

It seems that based on your logic it would be a good idea to tear down Cinderella's Castle and replace it with something that has nothing to do with Fantasyland because no one rides the castle.

Actually people eat in the castle. It's a restaurant. And it is probably the most beloved restaurant in the place (and simultaneously the most hated too.) Furthermore, the castle is really the decorative entry to Fantasyland as well and takes up far less space than does the ROA, an out dated, boring attraction that most anywhere duplicates these days.

Would you advocate that? What they are planning is to disrupt the most successful park in the world, not just Disney. The success of the Magic Kingdom is partly due to rides not being just plopped down randomly, but that is what they are planning to do with the Cars ride. I am not proposing that Tom Sawyer’s Island remain, but suggested that it be replaced by an attraction from the second most successful park, that is New Orleans Square from Disneyland.

Um small problem. You can't import any attraction from New Orleans Square because WDW already has them all. MK already has a POTC and a haunted mansion as well as a Railroad. Those are the attractions in New Orleans Square. Fantasmic played there too but WDW already has its own theater for Fantasmic in the studios.

The Disney planners are supposed to be so imaginative, but the five non-Disneyland parks are just copies from other venues not very original. If they are so imaginative they could come up with an idea to provide better access to the island without destroying the Rivers of America by building movable bridges.

Tom,

Better access to the Island in order to do what? Oh boy, a dirt trail. I've never seen one of those before. Wow!!! As long as there is some berm to separate the areas, I'm good. Bring on the Cars and the Villains.

 

[NiceBlue]

Cannot. At the beginning of this thread I wrote.

“One of two things that will happen if Cars Land was to replace both of those, is that Cars Land will not be that popular and not attract that many more quests, then why cause a major disruption to Frontierland. On the other hand Cars Land may be very popular then why put it in the most crowded of all Disney’s parks. In either case It would make more sense to put it in a less crowded park, one with not as many rides.”
You wrote that DCA has “. . . fewer attractions than . . .” Disneyland. (I don’t know how much smaller it is). I agree the number of attractions is important to attendance, that is why I would advocate putting Cars Land in a WDW park with many fewer rides, like Hollywood Studios, particularly if Cars Land will be very popular. However, in comparing DCA with Disneysea you are comparing parks in two different markets. DCA has continued to have about 53% of the attendance of California Disneyland, while Disneysea has had in the order of 84% of Tokyo Disneyland. DCA has about ⅓ of the California Disney Resort market, while Disneysea has just under ½ of the Tokyo Disney Resort market close to the share of Tokyo Disneyland.
Here are the non Disneyland parks’ attendance compared to their partnered Disneyland for 2022 from https://aecom.com/theme-index/.

Magic Kingdom 17133
Hollywood Studios 10900 63,6%
Epcot 10000 58.4%
Animal Kingdom 9027 52.7%

Disneyland 16881
California Adventure 9000 53.3%

Tokyo Disneyland 12000
Disneysea 10100 84.2%

Paris Disneyland 9930
Paris Studios 5340 53.8%
When I wrote “doing well” it was based on these numbers.
People do not ride the Castle, people do ride the riverboat, but I would not advocate getting rid of either since it is not that ridership that is important, but the positive experience of both. That was my point. I would not advocate importing rides from New Orleans Square and as I wrote in the beginning that could be counterproductive in that it may increase congestion for the already congested park. However, New Orleans Square, without additional rides, could continue the positive experience of Frontierland. On the other hand Cars Land would just be plopping down something in an area it doesn’t fit that is not imaginative. The success of MK is in part based on fitting attractions to their surroundings. That is imaginative. If Cars Land would be very popular it would make even more sense to put it in a WDW park other than plopping it down in Frontierland.
Tom