Rise of the Resistance - Failure Modes and Reliability Breakdown discussion...(SPOILERS!)

[ironband74]

So those of you who are on the non spoiler thread know that I've been following the opening of ROTR pretty closely. I've not been on the attraction, but I have watched ride videos (I couldn't resist!) and so I've seen most of the show elements or at least are aware of them.

I find the whole thing fascinating, really, but I'm trying to understand where the reliability issues are. Yes. it's a complex attraction. Yes, there are a lot of moving parts. But why the heck does the thing crash and burn so often (three times today so far!)

So if you've been on the attraction when something has broken down, if you've seen something that gives you an idea as to what happened or what went wrong, I'd love to hear from you and discuss. I have my ideas as to the issues, but real data is far better than my conjecture.

Yes, I realize that we aren't going to solve the issues - this is just for those of us who find this sort of thought experiment fun.

We hear talk of it taking 60-90 minutes to "reboot" or "cycle" the system, but what does that mean?

Spoilers are fair game, so don't hold back.

 

[njchris]

I went on this morning after it had broken down almost right away (I was in the first boarding group but was in DCA when they called it and took a bit to get there so I didn't get stuck on line). Grabbed some food and watched for the boarding groups to go back up and when they did I went on. The only thing I noticed different from my first ride was Kylo was not moving on the part where he is watching the rebels hyperspace in. It wasn't a big deal but that's all I noticed.

I'd like to know if any of these shut downs are because of dopey guests. I know I was going on buzz the other day and a lady was with two kids and what I think was her mother. She kept stopping from boarding her car with one of the kids to go the one behind to show the kid how to do whatever.. back and forth and by the time she tried to get to hers it closed. (lol). She had to squeeze in 3 with the kid and granny. The CM said "you waited too long".

 

[montreid]

I wonder how often trackless systems breakdown in general. I know Luigi breaks down constantly. But how about Ratatouille? I heard cell phones vs floor is not a good mixture and envision the floor electrified that blows out the system somehow -- or if simply mechanical the rides crush the phones and gets jammed up on the floor -- where a cow catcher solution maybe needed?

Just spit balling!

 

[dieumeye]

I also am also really curious about what exactly is wrong with RotR that prevents it from operating at its intended capacity. The ride is amazing and has entertained thousands of guests on both coasts, but it obviously has a problem performing at an acceptable level of reliability.

What keeps shutting the ride down? Is it one specific thing they can’t seem to fix or is it multiple things? I’ve heard there were problems controlling the vehicles, that some elements were overheating, that they can’t keep all the elements in sync, that it’s guests dropping phones in the ride, etc.

And perhaps more importantly, why can’t they fix whatever it is that keeps shutting the ride down? It has a billion moving parts and is the most complex ride ever built. But look at those robots at the car assembly line, or mega machines at any factory. They do the same thing over and over with precision in timed coordination with the rest of the assembly line all day every day.

I wonder if there’s a chance that they’ll eventually be forced to “reimagine” sections of the attraction that don’t work, turning them into less complicated, more reliable elements? Or maybe they’ll just remove troublesome elements or entire sections of the ride. People are already sometimes experiencing it with some non-working elements, and they ran it with an entire missing section at WDW at least once.

Very curious to learn more about what the specific problems with the attraction are and why efforts to fix it - which I would assume are substantial and ongoing even before the ride opened - have not managed to find a solution.

 

[njchris]

. People are already sometimes experiencing it with some non-working elements, and they ran it with an entire missing section at WDW at least once.

What section was missing? And what does missing mean?

 

[Mark_E]

When I was there two weeks ago, I was told by a cast member outside the ride system took 90 mins to reset. This is after I’d been given a Fastpass to come back (was just about to board).

 

[Jung-li]

What section was missing? And what does missing mean?

They did this in dhs again yesterday for at least one boarding group. They take people through a hallway directly into the hangar room. So no Rey room or transport shuttle.

 

[montreid]

The first time it was Rey that was down ; Missing the transport is a big part IMHO. You lose a lot of the experience with that gone. Rey is a nice setup, but not essential

 

[ironband74]

So, if we walk through the attraction:

Station 1: Ready room with BB-8 and Rey and outside the shuttle.

I don't see anything here that is any more complicated than the Collector's office in GOTG. So I'm going to say everything here is fairly reliable.

Station 2: The shuttle on a turntable

It's a big turntable, right? One or two identical shuttles? A couple of really cool animatronics and a whole lot of screens. I'm guessing screens are pretty reliable. If there are two shuttles, then that gives redundancy - But I suppose if the Lt. Bek animatronic goes down that shuttle goes down. But the other shuttle can continue and I have to imagine techs can work on one shuttle while the other operates, so it seems this might slow loading, but not likely stop it unless the turntable itself has an issue. I haven't been on it so I don't know how intense the motion simulation part of this is, but I imagine it is pretty tame since you stand the whole time, right? So this seems unlikely to be the "show-stopper" And when it is...in WDW they just walk you past it...(not cool...not cool).

Station 3: The star destroyer

Animatronic Storm Troopers, most of which if they were down you wouldn't notice, right? Minor movement. And cast members. So...

Station 4: Interrogation room

Again, nothing more complicated than the Collector's office, except maybe the break-out effects. mostly projections, which are high reliability...

Station 5: The show proper

So it seems that this is where we see our issues likely. We've got trackless vehicles that need to constantly be recharged, right? The vehicles go both indoors and outdoors, so can pick up dirt and bring it inside. The Kylo Animatronics both seem to have a "B" mode to cover for when they go down, so those don't seem to be showstoppers. Not sure about the Finn animatronic. We've got lifts at the AT-ATs which I assume the ride vehicles lock into during ascent. We've got the light saber effect which some folks have reported going missing, so that doesn't seem to take it down. The gun room needs to be synchronized to let the vehicles past, so there is a potential failure point. And then there is the drop rooms that the ride vehicles lock into. Are there two or four of these?

Station 6: Back on Batuu and unload

One animatronic in an escape pod, right? And of course our trackless vehicles, which have to recharge as they return to the show building.

So @dieumeye mentions overheating - As I understand it the charging is all done wirelessly via charging pads in the floor. Anyone who has charged their phone on a qi charger knows that those things can get warm if they aren't lined up right, so that seems to be one possible issue.

@montreid I don't think the floor is electrified since charging is wireless. But things getting crushed under the vehicles seems like it would be problematic and possibly require a manual lift to get a vehicle moving again. Brushes around the outside of the vehicle just inside the lip to not wreck the theming might be a solution if they aren't there already.

@Mark_E - I keep hearing this 90 minutes to reset thing. But what are they resetting?

I wonder if maybe it is an issue with vehicles not charging correctly and getting stranded on the floor. There are places in the attraction where the vehicles go single file, and if a ride vehicle drops voltage or stalls out in one of these places...the whole system has to stop and then they have to move the vehicle out of service manually, I assume.

I also see in some of the ride videos that there are, in certain places, tracks on the floor from the vehicle wheels. It makes me wonder if dirt transfer from outside is having an effect on the floor chargers etc.

And, of course, the main chargers are at load, and then in the hallway back to the show building. If a charger goes out and needs replacing or maintaining, I assume it is not possible to do so while the vehicles are in movement. If at load, then they can take down one of the two loading stations. But if at return, I assume everything must shut down.

Has anyone been in a vehicle when the system went down?

 

[socaldisneylover]

I appreciate the lengthy analysis. This is what I really want to know, and my eventual opinion of this ride will depend upon it. The attraction has apparently been having these breakdown issues for months and months. It has been well known, and discussed on other Disneyland sites.

Some things can be improved upon over time. A restaurant can have issues when it first opens, with service and food quality, etc. A good restaurant will resolve things, and then can eventually blame any lackluster initial performance on having just opened. But if weeks and months after opening, the kitchen equipment shuts down multiple times each day, for 1-3 hours at a time, it doesn't matter how good the food and service are. You've got a problem.

So what I am curious about, is whether the existing issues are able to be resolved, or are more like the issues they had with Rocket Rods, where they eventually decided to throw in the towel. I don't see that happening here though, as this is not just 1 ride in Tomorrowland. This ride is more or less the marquee attraction in a very expensive new land, for which they also gave Lucas a ton of $$$$$$$$ for the rights to in the first place. I see them sticking with the same boarding group process indefinitely, unless these constant breakdown issues resolve themselves.

It matters little how good the CM's are in running the attraction when it's up, and it also matters less how much expertise the tech guys are in resolving problems as they occur. What matters is whether these issues are inherent to the attraction design and technology itself, and no amount of tweaking will fix a system that is destined to inherently break down frequently, and without notice. I hear comparisons to Indiana Jones, and then realize it's nowhere near the same. I realize that IJ still has problems, and is prone to breakdowns, but they are far less frequent, and nowhere near as long lasting. On many occasions, I've walked by IJ, and see it closed. Then go on Haunted Mansion or Pirates, and pass by it again and it's open. I do not think IJ commonly has 1 hour or more breakdowns, correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope that these are technical problems that will be diagnosed and resolved. But I fear that the attraction is just too complex to ever be relied upon. Is the WDW having as many and as prolonged breakdowns still, or has their version become more reliable in terms of daily operation?

 

[brightlined]

Something really minor from my ride on Tuesday:

During the Interrogation Room breakout, the door opened about three inches and stopped. The CM on the other side tried to stay in character and yell that they were working on getting us out. I think he might have hit a manual override of some kind - he pushed the door forward (closed) a little, and then it popped quickly open, which was different from how I remember it on Monday.

 

[dina444444]

The ITS ship has 3 compartments on it. One in load, one in unload and one in show.
The biggest issue from my understanding has to do with the lifts and if it breaks down how the lifts are reset.

 

[SOCALMouseMommy]

Something really minor from my ride on Tuesday:

During the Interrogation Room breakout, the door opened about three inches and stopped. The CM on the other side tried to stay in character and yell that they were working on getting us out. I think he might have hit a manual override of some kind - he pushed the door forward (closed) a little, and then it popped quickly open, which was different from how I remember it on Monday.

I like that the CMs try to stay in character when there’s an issue! Makes a big difference on this ride.

 

[ironband74]

The ITS ship has 3 compartments on it. One in load, one in unload and one in show.
The biggest issue from my understanding has to do with the lifts and if it breaks down how the lifts are reset.

OK, so extra redundancy, at the ITS as long as the turntable doesn't break down.

The lifts up by the AT-ATs or the drop lifts with the motion simulators?

 

[ironband74]

I hope that these are technical problems that will be diagnosed and resolved. But I fear that the attraction is just too complex to ever be relied upon. Is the WDW having as many and as prolonged breakdowns still, or has their version become more reliable in terms of daily operation?

There is a lot of software involved. Software can easily be updated and fixed.

There is also a lot of hardware involved. Hardware can still be changed out and made more robust. The restaurant can remodel the kitchen if necessary.

The problem with Rocket Rods was that they used old hardware (the People Mover Track) for something it was not inherently designed for (high speed thrill ride). They didn't abandon it because it kept breaking. They abandoned it because it broke beyond fixing (the track was degrading and would have to be replaced entirely to support the attraction).

ROTR was designed from the ground up to be what it is. However, the first time you build something, you don't always anticipate all of the nuances and issues that might arise. What looks good on paper and works in theory doesn't always translate to practical application. Sometimes you have to build it and find its weak points, then go back and shore it up. I've built a number of machines that had to go through iterative improvement, but were too expensive to completely redesign. In most cases I was able to find a solution that improved the reliability of the function. The best engineers can find a way to improve on what is already there once they observe the failure modes. I have to believe that WDI has some of the best engineers, and they will figure this out. Once they understand the problem, after a week or a month or two one of them will sit bolt upright in the middle of the night and exclaim "Eureka!", scribble some notes on a napkin next to the bed, and bring it to work the next day. Two weeks later, without explanation, the attraction will see a huge improvement in reliability.

 

[matthewthompson87]

Two weeks later, without explanation, the attraction will see a huge improvement in reliability.

Or...

Disco Yeti.

 

[dina444444]

OK, so extra redundancy, at the ITS as long as the turntable doesn't break down.

The lifts up by the AT-ATs or the drop lifts with the motion simulators?

Both lifts. But it’s usually the drop ones.

 

[ironband74]

Or...

Disco Yeti.

"You have to understand, it's a giant complicated machine sitting on top of, like, a 46-foot tall tower in the middle of a finished building. So, it's really hard to fix, but we are working on it. And we continue to work on it. We have tried several 'things', none of them quite get to the key, turning of the 40-foot tower inside of a finished building, but we are working on it... I will fix the Yeti someday, I swear." - Joe Rohde

 

[ironband74]

Both lifts. But it’s usually the drop ones.

And there are four of those drop lifts?

 

[dina444444]

And there are four of those drop lifts?

Yes. 2 up lifts and 4 down. There are 4 going down because it has the motion simulator screen portion so lasts longer than the going up does.