RF or FF carseat on plane?

[justhat]

I'm having trouble deciding which way to install my daughter's carseat on the plane for our trip to WDW on Friday. Madison is now 19 months and almost 23 pounds, so technically she can be forward facing in her carseat, but I still have her rearfacing in the car but was thinking about putting her forward facing on the plane. I thought it might be easier to install it that way and allow the person in front of us to recling which is really my only reasoning for wanting to do it this way. We have a Britax Roundabout and we've flown with it many times before, but she was under 20 or just about 20 pounds so I kept her rearfacing. I also thought by putting her forward facing maybe she could use the snack tray to color. Is that possible with a carseat or will it not fold all the way down? Also, will she be able to kick the seat in front of us if she's forward facing?

 

[DisneyPhD]

Once you put if FF there isn't any going back. I can't belive you still have it RF since DD hated it that way and we turned it around as soon as we could (shortly after she turned 1 year old, still under 20 lbs but with Dr full permsion.) She is so much happier seeing the world around her.

I say FF, but I am a bad mommy since I don't take the car seat on the plane so my opinon might not be one you want.

I think rear facing would be rather ackward on the plane, but really do what ever you and your DD are most comfortable with.

 

[tlbwriter]

Once you put if FF there isn't any going back. I can't belive you still have it RF since DD hated it that way and we turned it around as soon as we could (shortly after she turned 1 year old, still under 20 lbs but with Dr full permsion.) She is so much happier seeing the world around her.

Unfortunately, lots of pediatricians aren't up on the current standards. The American Academy of Pediatrics fully supports the one year AND 20 lb recommendation, but some doctors just don't keep up with the latest info.

Anyway, kudos to you for keeping her RF. I know several people who switch between RF and FF with no problems, so if you do decide to do FF on the plane, don't assume it's the point of no return. RF might actually be easier on the plane, since she'll be facing you and it will be easier to entertain her, but a FF installation might be quite a bit easier.

 

[DisneyPhD]

Unfortunately, lots of pediatricians aren't up on the current standards. The American Academy of Pediatrics fully supports the one year AND 20 lb recommendation, but some doctors just don't keep up with the latest info.

Actually my ped and myself are familar with that. The thing is my kids tend to be rather small, but my ped has detrimied their physcial development to be at the nessasry level to support front facing seats (regardless of being under the 20 lb mark.) Unlike many babies that are over the 20 lb mark, but under age and delevopment.

 

[staci]

I'm having trouble deciding which way to install my daughter's carseat on the plane for our trip to WDW on Friday. Madison is now 19 months and almost 23 pounds, so technically she can be forward facing in her carseat, but I still have her rearfacing in the car but was thinking about putting her forward facing on the plane. I thought it might be easier to install it that way and allow the person in front of us to recling which is really my only reasoning for wanting to do it this way. We have a Britax Roundabout and we've flown with it many times before, but she was under 20 or just about 20 pounds so I kept her rearfacing. I also thought by putting her forward facing maybe she could use the snack tray to color. Is that possible with a carseat or will it not fold all the way down? Also, will she be able to kick the seat in front of us if she's forward facing?

First, I just have to say, your dd is totally adorable!!

Not to hijack your thread, but I was just wondering why you chose to have her rear facing after 1 year/20 lbs? I never even thought to do that with ds. Is it safer for them to continue to ride that way? My ds was so tall by 12 months, I was scared to leave him rearfacing because I was worried about his legs getting crushed in a wreck. But we are planning on more children?

I would appreciate any info you have!!!

 

[kiddoc]

As a pediatrician, I agree with DisneyPhD. It is development that is actually more important than weight OR age. The reason for rear-facing is that the muscles supporting the spine are not strong enough to withstand the force of a collision forward facing. Therefore, a child who is walking well, jumping, running, etc would have the necessary muscle development to withstand forward facing. I, too, will allow patients to be turned forward-facing at 18-19 pounds if they are develpmentally able. On the other hand, I have 28 pound 10 month olds still rear-facing. "Laws" have to be set somewhere, but each individual case needs to be assessed.
JUST MY OPINION!!!

 

[justhat]

First, I just have to say, your dd is totally adorable!!

Not to hijack your thread, but I was just wondering why you chose to have her rear facing after 1 year/20 lbs? I never even thought to do that with ds. Is it safer for them to continue to ride that way? My ds was so tall by 12 months, I was scared to leave him rearfacing because I was worried about his legs getting crushed in a wreck. But we are planning on more children?

I would appreciate any info you have!!!

Thanks Staci!

I would have never thought of keeping her rf either, except that the car seat tech who installed our Britax after we switched from the infant seat told us every day you keep them rf is one day they're safer. He said that even past 1 year and 20 pounds the risk of spinal cord injuries is still significant when ff, while there have never been any documented cases of leg injuries from rf. She was 9 months old at the time and about 17 pounds so ff wasn't even a question then. When she turned 1 she was still 19 pounds so we kept her rf.

Madison is also pretty tall, she was 33 inches at 18 months, and her legs are kinda crowded, but she seems comfortable so I haven't moved her yet. In my car I have a Marathon so she could stay rf in that thing till she's 33 pounds since it's so tall, but in my husband's car we have a Roundabout and she's only got another couple of inches rf in that since it's shorter. You're supposed to turn them ff when the top of their head is an inch away from the top of the seat.

Also, my husband is a medical student and just finished his acting internship in pediatrics at Children's National Medical Center in DC on Friday. They do car seat installations/inspections there and he had to attend a lecture on car safety. One thing that the speaker told him that stands out is that the 1 year and 20 pounds is a minimum, not a maximum. He said the longer you keep them that way, the better protected they are against spinal column injuries. We already heard this from our tech like I mentioned, but after he heard it in his lecture they were told to give that advice to parents they see in the hospital. So even though we were going to turn Madison around pretty soon, we're just going to wait till she's at the max for the Roundabout and then probably switch both car seats.

 

[staci]

Thanks! I had never heard of that before.

 

[justhat]

Thanks tlbwriter. That was my other fear-besides worrying about her kicking the seat in front of us, I was afraid she'd never want to ride rearfacing again. Since it's in a plane, not a car, I'm thinking I should be able to switch her back and forth just fine. I might just do it rf on the way there since I'll be alone with my daughter and niece and then on the way back when I have my husband to help out I might try it ff. I just always feel bad for the person in front of her who can't recline since she's over 20 pounds now.

Disney PhD, Madison hated her carseat for a long time too. For 9 months she literally screamed from the moment we placed her in the seat till the second we took her out, regardless of how long of a car ride it was. Unlike most babies she never slept in the car. Luckily we live in downtown DC so we could minimize driving by walking a lot. Once we switched her from her infant carseat to the convertible seat she was a different baby though. Hasn't complained since then, even on the long drives from DC to NJ. Maybe because I got used to her screaming in the car I didn't care about turning her ff for a better view? What I mean is, she hated the carseat for 9 months, but obviously I still used it, so hating rf didnt' make me change either. Of course, I don't think she hates it though, at least not anymore. She's got a little mirror back there with fish in water that 'swim' when you kick the little foot pads and that keeps her occupied. I also have a velcro mobile on the ceiling and she 'talks' to the little bugs on it. She doesn't know life any other way so I guess she doesn't realize what she's missing yet!

 

[justhat]

Staci, I wanted to add some links that talk more about rearfacing past the 1 year/20 pound minimum.
http://www.alexandriacares.org/ - this is who did our seat and there are some good articles linked on this seat
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/StayRearFacing.aspx
http://www.cpsafety.com/articles/RFAlbumAll.aspx
The 2nd of these 2 links has photos of 'old' kids riding rearfacing. I don't plan to keep Madison rf as long as some of the kids in those photos but it's interesting to see how long it's possible. I'm guessing once we turn her in my husband's car she'll want to be turned in mine too, but by that point I'll be okay with her being ff anyway.

 

[tlbwriter]

Even if a pediatrician decides your child is "okay" to FF, RF is still safer, no matter how old or developed the child is. The links in justhat's post explain why. It's not something everybody can do, or wants to do, but it's still true.

 

[DisneyPhD]

As a pediatrician, I agree with DisneyPhD. It is development that is actually more important than weight OR age. The reason for rear-facing is that the muscles supporting the spine are not strong enough to withstand the force of a collision forward facing. Therefore, a child who is walking well, jumping, running, etc would have the necessary muscle development to withstand forward facing. I, too, will allow patients to be turned forward-facing at 18-19 pounds if they are develpmentally able. On the other hand, I have 28 pound 10 month olds still rear-facing. "Laws" have to be set somewhere, but each individual case needs to be assessed.
JUST MY OPINION!!!

Thanks so much for you expert opinion. I agree that the laws are there as a jumping point and weight, height and age are all very rough estimates of delevopment. My girls and I tend to be small. It always amazed me when they talk about car seats until 80 lbs. Hello, I was in High School before I weighted 80 lbs and would of been in a car seat in the drivers seat. But you have some 6 year olds who are 80 lbs, so it really has to be assesed by a pediatrician who knows your childs development.

With my DD when she turned 1 years old she was under 20 lbs so we continued it backwards. She hated not being able to see us (even with a mirror) and one warm spring day we were heading out and she didn't have a coat on. The seat was adjusted for the coat (this was my bad I know) and she wiggled her way out of it and was standing backwards yelling Hi Hi Hi Hi. She was so happy and proud of herself. We were at a red light so I hopped out and turned her back around. Oh my was she pissed at me. I told my ped this story and she said, time to turn it around. DD was so much happier after that.

Justhat, you have to do what you are must comfortable with. For me it was turning it around, but it sounds like both you and DH have done the research on this and basing your choices on that. If you try it rear facing and it isn't working, change it.

Those links, oh my. I can't imagine my older DD still being rear facing. That seems just insane to me. (she is only 30 lbs right now and is 4 1/2 years old).

We have come a long way in car seat safety since we were kids (didn't have one or the ones we had werent very safe. Heck some of the cars didn't have seat belts in the back and I am not that old.)

 

[tlbwriter]

As a pediatrician, I agree with DisneyPhD. It is development that is actually more important than weight OR age. The reason for rear-facing is that the muscles supporting the spine are not strong enough to withstand the force of a collision forward facing. Therefore, a child who is walking well, jumping, running, etc would have the necessary muscle development to withstand forward facing. I, too, will allow patients to be turned forward-facing at 18-19 pounds if they are develpmentally able. On the other hand, I have 28 pound 10 month olds still rear-facing. "Laws" have to be set somewhere, but each individual case needs to be assessed.
JUST MY OPINION!!!

I'm curious, then, about your thoughts on this article by child safety expert Kathleen Weber which says, in part:

Common Misunderstanding
There are many misunderstandings and misconceptions about the crash environment that lead even the best-intentioned parent or pediatrician to believe a child is "safe" facing forward when s/he is still very young. These come from obsolete ideas and advice that may still appear in older pamphlets and pediatric literature but that have been updated in recent years.

The most prevalent misunderstanding is the idea that muscle strength and control have anything to do with whether it is reasonable to face a child forward and subject his/her neck to the extreme forces pulling the head away from the body in a frontal crash. (emphasis mine)

Crash Dynamics
This will be a somewhat technical explanation, but it is an important concept to understand. When a car hits something else at, say, 25 miles per hour to 30mph, it will come to a stop at a deceleration rate of about 20 or 25G. But, due to the time lag between when the vehicle stops and the occupants eventually do, the head of a forward-facing adult or child may experience as much as 60 or 70G.

Physiological Impact
Even strong neck muscles of military volunteers cannot make a difference in such an environment. Rather it is the rigidity of the bones in the neck, in combination with the connecting ligaments, that determines whether the spine will hold together and the spinal cord will remain intact within the confines of the vertebral column.

This works for adults, but very young children have immature and incompletely ossified bones that are soft and will deform and/or separate under tension, leaving the spinal cord as the last link between the head and the torso. Have you ever pulled an electric cord from the socket by the cord instead of the plug and broken the wires? Same problem.

Based on this article, I might FF a child who is older than 1 but weighs less than 20 lb, but only if it were a situation such as the one DisneyPhD describes, where the child needs to be monitored (though, as she herself points out, the harness was too loose, and the child probably wouldn't have been able to escape if it had been properly tightened). But I would not turn a child younger than 1, even if it weighed 28 lb.

 

[justhat]

DisneyPhD, I think it's a little strange to keep kids rf at 4yo too, but I know it's safer so I have to give credit to the parents who can do it. In our case that would never be an option, at least in one car, since my daughter will be too tall to rf in the carseat. The other reason I would turn her ff before most of the kids in those photos is that once she sees her friends ride ff, and gets in a car with them, I don't want her to feel like a baby by being rf. Yes, yes, I know, I shouldn't give in to peer pressure like that, let her do what the other kids are doing, but I don't want her to be 'the weird kid' so we won't be doing that. Since she's so thin though I'd rather wait as long as possible to turn her around. If she were a heavier child I might feel differently. I think by Christmas she'll be too tall to rf in the Roundabout so she'll be turning forward by then.

I just wanted to add that you're right, we have done a good bit of research about the subject, though we never planned to. When she was born and up until we spoke with the carseat tech when she was 9 months old we planned to turn her ff as soon as she reached the 1 year and 20 pound mark. Then after hearing what he said and reading more about it we thought we'd keep her rf for a couple of months past a year. Turns out we had to because she was still under 20 pounds till around 14 or 15 months. Then we thought we'd do it through the summer since we were going on vacation and driving in rental cars in unfamiliar places. Then after his lecture about car safety and learning that Children's National Medical Center is now telling parents to use the 1 year and 20 pounds as a bare minimum we decided to just keep her that way till she can't fit. So though we never planned any of this, nor even thought anything about it, that's what ended up happening!

 

[DisneyPhD]

Based on this article, I might FF a child who is older than 1 but weighs less than 20 lb, but only if it were a situation such as the one DisneyPhD describes, where the child needs to be monitored (though, as she herself points out, the harness was too loose, and the child probably wouldn't have been able to escape if it had been properly tightened). But I would not turn a child younger than 1, even if it weighed 28 lb.

Interesting article. I wanted to point out that kiddoc said

That she has a 28 lb 10 month old that is still rear facing. Not that she advotes turning the seat around before 12 months, even if the child is over 20 lbs.

Just that I agree that when kids noticed "they get to sit that way, why can't I?" It makes a differnce. Call it peer presure, but they notice and we do too.

 

[camouseketeer]

First I applaud your decision to keep your DD rearfacing. I also applaud your knowledge of what's safest for your child.

For your airplane questions:
The tray will be useless to you as it will hit your DD's legs and not open fully.
If your DD's legs are long enough, and it sounds like they are, she will be able to kick the seat in front of her. That is a big source of stress for me when I fly with my DD. But, I take her shoes off to give less distance and force, I reinforce NO Kicking, and I hope for a patient, understanding person in front of me.

Bottom line, yes, your DD will be safer on the plane being RF. My uncle is a retired Air Force captain and has always stressed to us keeping our kids RF on planes as long as possible. But she could be bored as there is not much to look at RF on a plane. (Well, is there much to look at FF too???) Since she's used to the RF position, she might be happy.

Good luck with your trip!

 

[tlbwriter]

Interesting article. I wanted to point out that kiddoc said

That she has a 28 lb 10 month old that is still rear facing. Not that she advotes turning the seat around before 12 months, even if the child is over 20 lbs.

You're right, I mis-read that. Thanks for the catch.

Kiddoc, have you ever suggested to a parent that they turn a child who is less than 1 year old? Or do you feel the weight limit is flexible, but not the age limit?

 

[DisneyPhD]

You're right, I mis-read that. Thanks for the catch.

Kiddoc, have you ever suggested to a parent that they turn a child who is less than 1 year old? Or do you feel the weight limit is flexible, but not the age limit?

That would be interesting to hear. Must Doc I know stress the age more then weight since many many many kids (but not mine and justhat's ) are well over 20 lbs before they reach 1 year old.

I wasn't able to read the whole article too carefully, but it apears they are stressing neck and musle development more then actual pounds too. I think the guide line counts on babies by age one and 20 pounds having the nessary neck mussels. Sorry got to go, screaming 1 year old.

 

[tlbwriter]

That would be interesting to hear. Must Doc I know stress the age more then weight since many many many kids (but not mine and justhat's ) are well over 20 lbs before they reach 1 year old.

I wasn't able to read the whole article too carefully, but it apears they are stressing neck and musle development more then actual pounds too. I think the guide line counts on babies by age one and 20 pounds having the nessary neck mussels. Sorry got to go, screaming 1 year old.

Take a look at the article again when the 1-yr-old gives you an opportunity. The neck muscles aren't relevant at all. It's the development of the spine. A 9-month-old might have well-developed neck muscles, but those muscles do not lessen the stress on the spine when the head is thrust forward in a crash. The spine develops and matures on its own schedule, independent of muscular development.

 

[DisneyPhD]

Take a look at the article again when the 1-yr-old gives you an opportunity. The neck muscles aren't relevant at all. It's the development of the spine. A 9-month-old might have well-developed neck muscles, but those muscles do not lessen the stress on the spine when the head is thrust forward in a crash. The spine develops and matures on its own schedule, independent of muscular development.

But is spine development dependent on weight, or is just a time thing?