RF or FF carseat on plane?

[tlbwriter]

It seems to be based on time alone. From the article:

Turn-Around Time
There are no magical or visible signals to tell us, parents or pediatricians when the risk of facing forward in a crash is sufficiently low to warrant the change, and, when a parent drives around for months or years without a serious crash, the positive feedback that the system they have chosen "works" is very difficult to overcome. When in doubt, however, it's always better to keep the child facing rearward.

In the research and accident review(2) that I did a few years ago, the data seemed to break at about 12 months between severe consequences and more moderate consequences for the admittedly rare events of injury to young children facing forward that we were able to identify. One year old is also a nice benchmark, and the shift to that benchmark in the last few years has kept many kids in a safer environment longer and has probably saved some lives, some kids from paralysis and some parents from terrible grief.

So that explains where the 1 year comes from. Of course, it should be considered a minimum, not "best practice." The longer you can stay RF, the safer you are - even adults are safer RF (good to know if you're flying Southwest or taking a train ).

I'm not sure where the "and 20 lb" part comes from. I'll see what I can find.

 

[DisneyPhD]

I think the problem with guidelines like those are people are always moving them us. For example, soilds between 4 and 6 months, so then people think hey, they would be starting in a few weeks anyway and start at 3 months etc.... It is becoming very clear with my 2nd that every child develops at such a different rate it is hard to make those genralizations.

When DD was somewhere around 2 years old we got in minor fender beder. Her seat was front facing (but she was still under 20 lbs.) We reended the car infront of us that stopped very suddenly, but we weren't going that fast by time we hit. DD was alseep and never even woke up. Thank God for that. (she and the car mostly) were just fine.

Did you know that if you get in a major acident the police won't let you take the car seats from your old car to the new one in order to leave the seen of the accident. (even if they apear undamaged.) I know they shouldn't be used again, but I would think the old ones would be safer then nothing for one ride back home or to a safe place. This happened to my friend in the winter in northern Michigan. There was nothing around, the police were no help at all and they had to get a ride from a good sameratin to a hotel. She was so scared. They were miles from anything in the frezing cold. They already had been on the side of the road for hours, the kids needed food and rest. They couldn't have waited while someone drove 1 hour or longer round trip to go buy new seats. What a pain in the butt. I never thought about that before she told me about it.

Sorry for hyjacking your thread just that.

Hope the trip goes very well and the flight uneventful and short.

 

[justhat]

Camouseketeer, thanks, that's what I was wondering, if she'd be able to use the tray and if she could kick the seat. Looks like we'll be keeping her rf again as I do not want to spend the whole flight holding her legs down, plus not even have the use of the tray. I actually like rf cause it keeps all her toys and other belongings contained within the carseat and the seatback of the plane/car. Much better than having things strewn all over the floor.

DisneyPhD, I think it depends on the cop if they take away your carseat or not. My SIL was in a carseat that basically totalled her car when my niece was 7 months old. She's still using that carseat today for her now 2yo son (niece is 4yo now). Yes, I know how bad it is to use a carseat after an accident, and I did tell her but she just sorta said "well, it looks fine, and I just bought this one 2 weeks ago, I can't get another one." Ironically, they live in New Orleans and left that carseat at my MIL's house and took MIL's Evenflo (it was a mistake, and there was no time to switch the seats). So looks like they'll finally be getting a new carseat. Of course, 2yo nephew is now 36 pounds and 36 inches so it won't be used very long.

 

[tjmw2727]

FWIW my neice is just under two but since she is not 20lbs yet my sil did keep her RF - against the advice of the pediatircian. My sil just wasn't comfortable turning her around and the instructions on the seat said it can stay RF so she has. Thanks so much for the links - she may already have the info but I am going to send it along to her if it is ok with the posters who provided it.

When we traveled with carseats I would book the seats 2/2 or 2/1 and either dh or I would sit in front of the dd who was in the CRS. This way if my dd in the carseat rearfacing dh would be the one not to recline and if she was FF DH got kicked, LOL. My older dd would sit with dh and I would sit with the younger dd. To keep the kicking to a minimum, remove shoes and reward with juice box, pops or stickers. Toys that attach to a stroller via the links are also great for the CRS in the airplane.

Its hard to make a decision that is against the norm but you have to go with what you feel is right. It dosen't get much easier either......My 8yo dd is "the only 8 1/2 yo in the entire world that sits in a booster seat" and to do it proper justice I should have typed it BOLD!! That isn't changing the fact that if she isn't in the booster my car dosen't go. She is only about 50lbs and her knees don't fall over the seat properly nor does the lap/shoulder belt fit so in the booster she stays.

Have a wonderful trip - we are dancing, 5 days to wait for us.
TJ

 

[Manda]

I don't really see how rear-facing makes any difference on a plane - just makes it harder to install. I totally understand in a car, of course. But you put them in a seat on the plane because of turbulence and you don't fly forward in those instances - it's more for protection in vertical bounces. KWIM? When we flew with DS at 9 months, he sat forward-facing and had no problem switching back when we installed his seat in the car.

 

[DisneyPhD]

I don't really see how rear-facing makes any difference on a plane - just makes it harder to install. I totally understand in a car, of course. But you put them in a seat on the plane because of turbulence and you don't fly forward in those instances - it's more for protection in vertical bounces. KWIM? When we flew with DS at 9 months, he sat forward-facing and had no problem switching back when we installed his seat in the car.

I was just thinking the same thing while driving in the car this evening with DH. The rear facing aspect really only helps depending on the place of inpact. In plane inpact isn't going to be a big issue (in a major incident a car seat isn't going to help) But car seats help restrain the child for turbulance and loss of pressure. Just being frimly straped in is the issue on a plane.

If a rough landing was antispapated in worst case most likely if you really needed to you could change the seat around before it was made (if needed.)

 

[CleveRocks]

Also, my husband is a medical student and just finished his acting internship in pediatrics at Children's National Medical Center in DC on Friday. They do car seat installations/inspections there and he had to attend a lecture on car safety. One thing that the speaker told him that stands out is that the 1 year and 20 pounds is a minimum, not a maximum. He said the longer you keep them that way, the better protected they are against spinal column injuries. We already heard this from our tech like I mentioned, but after he heard it in his lecture they were told to give that advice to parents they see in the hospital. So even though we were going to turn Madison around pretty soon, we're just going to wait till she's at the max for the Roundabout and then probably switch both car seats.

My wife the pediatrician says the same thing. She says that as long as all involved are OK with it, keep the kiddo rear-facing as long as is practical.

Wow, your husband is a med student! A fourth year I guess if he's doing an AI. I can't imagine having a child with a parent in med school, let alone residency. Life will get normal one day, it's just that that day won't be until about July of 2009. 2010 if he's earning a D.O. instead of an M.D.

God bless and good luck!

-- Eric

 

[Nicolepa]

But is spine development dependent on weight, or is just a time thing?

It is more of a time thing. Honestly I don't know what weight has to do with it, but I do know that time is the big factor in spine development. That is why they say the longer you can keep them RF the better. My daughter was RF until she was about 1.5 years. She was average weight, but pretty tall. At 17 months she just couldn't sit comfortably rear facing. My son was a linebacker, I was only able to keep him RF until 13-14 months because he was so heavy, but height wise he probably could have stayed till he was two (he had short stubby legs for the longest time).

Oh and all her friends were FF by 12-13 months. She didn't really seem to care what her friends were doing.

 

[NotUrsula]

I don't really see how rear-facing makes any difference on a plane - just makes it harder to install.

Um, no, not really. Tests with dummies have been done, and the result unequivocably shows that rear-facing is safer, especially with a child who is on the smaller end of the range.

The CAMI study made the following findings:
1. Rear-facing CRSs, for children under 20 pounds, performed well, protected the child, and could be adequately restrained with existing aircraft seat belts.
2. All eight forward-facing CRSs that were tested, for children from 20-40 pounds, when restrained with aircraft seat belts and subjected to the 16g longitudinal aircraft deceleration, failed to prevent the head from impacting the forward seatback. Routing the aircraft seat belt through a forward-facing CRS and buckling, adjusting proper tension, and unbuckling it was difficult, leading to the conclusion that some CRSs might not be easily and adequately secured to aircraft seats.
3. Normal lap belts, for children who weighed 33 pounds, provided adjustable tight fit, a belt path over the pelvic bone, and no indication of submarining or roll out during dynamic tests. However, because lap belts are not designed to inhibit upper torso flail, head impacts against the seat structure that were severe enough to cause head injury occurred during testing. These impacts were substantially higher than those exhibited in the forward CRS tests.

To read the whole report, see http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-IMPACT/2005/August/Day-26/i16782.htm

 

[justhat]

My wife the pediatrician says the same thing. She says that as long as all involved are OK with it, keep the kiddo rear-facing as long as is practical.

Wow, your husband is a med student! A fourth year I guess if he's doing an AI. I can't imagine having a child with a parent in med school, let alone residency. Life will get normal one day, it's just that that day won't be until about July of 2009. 2010 if he's earning a D.O. instead of an M.D.

God bless and good luck!

-- Eric

Yep Eric, he's a 4th year. He just finished up his residency applications last night, though I think I will be adding a few more places since I do not want to live in half the places he applied to! He's doing his neurology rotation this month, which is a nice break after his AI. He's doing pediatric neurosurgery, so they dont' let med students do much with that.

You're right, it's very hard for him to be in med school and have a 1yo. She was born 4 months before he took his Step 1 so that was rough too-he had to sleep on the couch since right around that time Madison started waking up during the night again. During his OB rotation 3rd year he was home so infrequently that Madison actually cried whenever he held her (she was 6-8 months at the time). Things have gotten better though this year. Other than his AI he won't really have call this year (well, the ER rotation, but that's not really call, just shifts.

My husband is getting his MD but wants to be an anesthesiologist (yes, I know, why did he do his AI in peds??) so he's got a prelim intern year then the 3 year residency, so yep, no normal life till 2010! And to think I'm planning to start on baby #2 in a year!

Anyway, thanks, it's great to hear from someone who's done it all already-sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy with all that's going on! (Oh, and I give your wife tons of credit for being a pediatrician-it's a very demanding and challenging job.)

 

[jorodopo]

... It dosen't get much easier either......My 8yo dd is "the only 8 1/2 yo in the entire world that sits in a booster seat" and to do it proper justice I should have typed it BOLD!! That isn't changing the fact that if she isn't in the booster my car dosen't go. She is only about 50lbs and her knees don't fall over the seat properly nor does the lap/shoulder belt fit so in the booster she stays. ...
TJ

I'm right there with you. My 9 1/2yo ds is only 49" and 52lbs and from what I hear the guideline at this end is 8years AND 80 lbs. When he won't finish his dinner, all I have to say is "80". Now we are just hoping that he maintains his 1/2 inch lead on his 6 yr brother who already weighs 63lbs.

 

[Piglet99645]

I didn't have time to read this whole thread, so sorry if I repeat something, but:

My experience is that the flight attendants won't let you put a car seat rear-facing on an airplane seat, b/c it prevents the seat in front of you from reclining.

Also, the lap belts really are not made to securely tighten for a rear-facing car seat.

(I assume we are talking about a regular car seat, here, and not those little ones for babies).

Hope that helps.

Piglet

 

[justhat]

Thanks Piglet. Just to let you know, they will let you install a carseat rearfacing. We have had I think 2 FAs tell us that we were installing it wrong, but when we explained she was under 1 year and under 20 pounds and that was what the carseat instructions said they left it alone. I've also gotten my seat tighter on the airplane than in the car sometimes (we use a Britax Roundabout on planes). If you can't do it with the regular seatbelt, ask for an extender, it will make installation much easier. I don't mean to contradict what you have said, just want to let you know that it is possible in case you ever need to try!

 

[txgirl]

Hello, I was in High School before I weighted 80 lbs and would of been in a car seat in the drivers seat.

This is my dd! She has just hit the 58 lb mark and she is almost 11 years old! Is it height or weight or both or neither????? I have mom-friends who my daughter will be taller than before she will hit 80 lbs and they are 38 year old women

 

[tjmw2727]

This is my dd! She has just hit the 58 lb mark and she is almost 11 years old! Is it height or weight or both or neither????? I have mom-friends who my daughter will be taller than before she will hit 80 lbs and they are 38 year old women

Me too - my dd will be 11 in October and she just hit 60lbs. There is a test to see if the child can sit safely without the seat, I will try and search for it later.

Basicly, and don't quote me, but the knees should fold over the seat when the child is sitting with the butt all the way to the seat back. The shoulder belt should fall across the shoulder properly and the lap part should be in the right place. My dd met all the requirements when we went to a safety check with my sil (neice and nephew still in CRS). My 8yo however is still using a booster and for the most part dosen't mind.

TJ

 

[DisneyPhD]

This is my dd! She has just hit the 58 lb mark and she is almost 11 years old! Is it height or weight or both or neither????? I have mom-friends who my daughter will be taller than before she will hit 80 lbs and they are 38 year old women

txgirl, your kids are ardorable

That really is what I mean, weight isn't the best factor of detrimining when a child is ready for the next level of restrant. (sometimes age isn't too.) However it is the best broad coveraged of it. Consideration and education is needed for each individual case. So I think what tjmw2727 says, you have too look at the whole pictures and use expert advice to find what is right for your family.

 

[tlbwriter]

Me too - my dd will be 11 in October and she just hit 60lbs. There is a test to see if the child can sit safely without the seat, I will try and search for it later.

It's the 5-step test found at Safety Belt Safe USA:


The 5-Step Test.

1. Does the child sit all the way back against the auto seat?
2. Do the child's knees bend comfortably at the edge of the auto seat?
3. Does the belt cross the shoulder between the neck and arm?
4. Is the lap belt as low as possible, touching the thighs?
5. Can the child stay seated like this for the whole trip?


If you answered "no" to any of these questions, your child needs a booster seat to make both the shoulder belt and the lap belt fit right for the best crash protection. Your child will be more comfortable, too!

 

[Emmaline Lola]

Just wanted to post to tell Justthat that I cannot believe how BIG and BEAUTIFUL Madison is!

I lurk ALOT on the dis, and post too, you all are so very helpful--I just saw Madison's pic and had to post! I love her pigtails!

el

 

[justhat]

Just wanted to post to tell Justthat that I cannot believe how BIG and BEAUTIFUL Madison is!

I lurk ALOT on the dis, and post too, you all are so very helpful--I just saw Madison's pic and had to post! I love her pigtails!

el

Thanks! I bet your little girl is pretty big now too!

We just got back home from the airport and I just thought I'd update on what we ended up doing. The flight on the way down was on Ted and the seat pitch was so small that she had to go in FF because the seat would not fit RF unless I had her totally upright. She could kick the seat in front of us, but I took off her shoes and she was pretty good about not doing it. I don't think she liked sitting that way though cause she woke up after about 45 minutes into the flight and could not get comfortable. I think she's used to the bigger recline.

On the way home we were on Independence Air, which had enough room for her to be RF so we put her in that way. Only problem was that she kept pushing her feet against her seat, causing her carseat to lean back and hit the seat in front of her. We tried the best we could to keep that under control, but the man in front of her was not at all happy. IMO, he was sorta crazy and took it too far. Every time she moved his seat, he'd slam his body backward against his seat so he'd crash into her carseat. The plane was not very full, so he could have moved his seat, in fact the 2 seats next to him were open, but he chose to stay in his seat and fight with my daughter the whole flight. We stopped her every time we saw her get ready to push off against her seat, but sometimes we just weren't quick enough. Oh well, we tried.

 

[JulieEck]

I'm having trouble deciding which way to install my daughter's carseat on the plane for our trip to WDW on Friday. Madison is now 19 months and almost 23 pounds, so technically she can be forward facing in her carseat, but I still have her rearfacing in the car but was thinking about putting her forward facing on the plane. I thought it might be easier to install it that way and allow the person in front of us to recling which is really my only reasoning for wanting to do it this way. We have a Britax Roundabout and we've flown with it many times before, but she was under 20 or just about 20 pounds so I kept her rearfacing. I also thought by putting her forward facing maybe she could use the snack tray to color. Is that possible with a carseat or will it not fold all the way down? Also, will she be able to kick the seat in front of us if she's forward facing?

I haven't read through all the posts, so this may have already been said. Sorry if it's a duplicate. When we flew on Airtran a couple of years ago, I put dd's seat (convertible, not infant) in rear facing because that was how it was in the car. It didn't even occur to me to put it FF. The flight attendant walked by and said that we had to put it FF and not RF because the person in front of us wouldn't be able to recline. So I had to take it out and turn it around. I can't remember whether or not she was able to use the tray (I think she did) or whether or not she kicked the seat (I don't think so-although she probably could've). We had timed the flight so that it was during a nap time and she did sleep most of the way. The tray issue will probably depend on the airline/carseat combination.

Now on the way back, the flight attendant stopped us as we were going down the aisle to check and make sure the seat was ok for flying. She held us and everybody else up for a good 5 minutes at least as she looked at every single sticker on the seat looking for the FAA statement. Now that really irked me because I felt really bad about all the people who couldn't get by us and if a carseat is good enough for a car, why wouldn't it be good enough for a plane??? I mean, if the plane is going to have a bad crash, isn't any carseat better than no carseat??? Actually, if the plane has a bad enough crash, I guess it won't matter will it! I was also wondering what in the world were we going to do with the carseat if she couldn't find that sticker???

I hope I haven't made anybody nervous or anything as that was not my intent. It just really irked me when she did that.

We are going to be flying in December, but will not bring a carseat along this time. We are using ME and won't be renting a car, just relying on Disney Transportation so we didn't want to have to lug it around everywhere. That's the downside to bringing one - trying to get through the airport and baggage check-in lines with all your luggage, stroller, little one and a big carseat!

Have a great trip!
Julie