Restriction-Free Points Idea

[KimMcGowan]

I was thinking about all of the discussions going on about the future of restrictions: the Poly will have them, the Poly won’t have them, Disney might remove them at Riviera, Disney will never remove Riviera, etc. I have this thought that Riviera owners might hate but that just might make sense. What if Disney decided to keep restrictions but offered the chance to upgrade your points so that they weren’t restricted. This would, of course, only apply to resell points. For some fee, say $25/point, you get the option to upgrade your points. This upgrade would not qualify you for Blue Card status, it would only apply to where you can book stays.
It opens a new, basically free, revenue stream for Disney. They would be able to, just like direct points, raise the price every year. It does dampen their pitch that you must buy direct - but let’s be honest, there are some people that will not consider buying direct. I think it could be a winning formula. I would certainly consider such an offer. Of course, there are many people on here much smarter than me that will probably be able to point out why this is a horrible idea. What do you think, would you pay to upgrade resell points - resell Genie +?

 

[pianomanzano]

I asked this question a couple weeks back. Here's the thread if you're curious about some of the responses.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/would-you-pay-to-have-resale-points-be-unrestricted.3872923/

 

[KimMcGowan]

I asked this question a couple weeks back. Here's the thread if you're curious about some of the responses.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/would-you-pay-to-have-resale-points-be-unrestricted.3872923/

I am sorry about that. I will definitely read it. Thanks

 

[pianomanzano]

I am sorry about that. I will definitely read it. Thanks

No need to apologize! Just wanted to share the thread to share some of the previous responses Looks like we think alike!

 

[Sandisw]

The documents for RIV gave them the power to do whatever they want basically in amending restrictions, including allowing some cash upgrade options.

So, they have already thought of a lot of options.

I think DVD will make those decisions based on both short term and long term goals.

But, it makes no sense for DVD to offer upgrades for a low fee. I could see it as a much larger amount and if they did, it’d probably go for all resale including RIV so not sure why owners would care.

Now, I could see them allow people to pay a few to basically trade their own points for a trip at a restricted resort.

As long as DVD has a long term goal of paying direct because resale is locked out, I think the game plan will stay the same as it was when RIV came on board.

The DLT and Poly tower projects should give us insight if this goal has now changed.

ETA: It would only make sense if the resale and upgrade fee brought it close enough to direct to guide people to just start that way. The whole purpose of the restriction is to sell new points so I can't see it being a way that encourages resale first

 

[RivShore]

I was thinking about all of the discussions going on about the future of restrictions: the Poly will have them, the Poly won’t have them, Disney might remove them at Riviera, Disney will never remove Riviera, etc. I have this thought that Riviera owners might hate but that just might make sense. What if Disney decided to keep restrictions but offered the chance to upgrade your points so that they weren’t restricted. This would, of course, only apply to resell points. For some fee, say $25/point, you get the option to upgrade your points. This upgrade would not qualify you for Blue Card status, it would only apply to where you can book stays.
It opens a new, basically free, revenue stream for Disney. They would be able to, just like direct points, raise the price every year. It does dampen their pitch that you must buy direct - but let’s be honest, there are some people that will not consider buying direct. I think it could be a winning formula. I would certainly consider such an offer. Of course, there are many people on here much smarter than me that will probably be able to point out why this is a horrible idea. What do you think, would you pay to upgrade resell points - resell Genie +?

History repeats - we had may long threads on this possibility back when Rivera first went on sale. Other timeshares do something like this so it could happen but who knows where DVC is in its thinking.

 

[Docwheeze]

We considered buying both RIV and VGF but ultimately chose VGF with resale restrictions as a minor factor. Bought VGF.

Wonder if they allowed 2 different categories of points on direct purchase designating perhaps 20 or 30 percent of direct points at RIV or other new resorts as unrestricted points for resale to allow buyer flexibility and possibly boost sales. These point categories would only activate for resale and be similar to white card versus blue card privileges. All direct points would continue unrestricted.

Sounds crazy but with upcoming deed expirations and new buildings like Poly 2, this could allow for a transition. All current members would have unrestricted points hopefully but mixed comments about new association restrictions and lack of consistency on point use policy seems frustrating to some on these boards.

 

[Brian Noble]

Given DVC's history of following the well-worn paths of other timeshare developers when it comes to managing resales, I would not be surprised if there was eventually a way to re-qualify "dirty" points. I can think of two other developers that remove resales from their points-based club. Diamond (now part of Hilton) requires you to buy new "clean" points to wash dirty ones, and IIRC requires you buy new on a 1-for-1 basis. Marriott charges a per-point fee to bring resale points back into the club--about 20% of the retail cost, give or take.

 

[Bjaiken77]

I’ve never understood Disney’s dissatisfaction with the resale market. Disney was paid exactly what they were asking for the contract at the time they sold it. What do they care if a dues paying member sells the contract to another person who will pay dues versus having the original member keep the contract? As long as Disney keeps getting their dues paid, what’s the big deal?

 

[hglenn]

I’ve never understood Disney’s dissatisfaction with the resale market. Disney was paid exactly what they were asking for the contract at the time they sold it. What do they care if a dues paying member sells the contract to another person who will pay dues versus having the original member keep the contract? As long as Disney keeps getting their dues paid, what’s the big deal?

I agree.... and the ROFR is the perfect mechanism to keep the value wherever they decide they want it. I'm baffled by the resale restrictions because it seems the appeal of Disney timeshare over others is the resounding value that it has even to a new buyer. I don't understand why they would want to devalue that market unless they plan to buy them all back.... Just seems odd....

 

[Docwheeze]

Money? If given a chance to buy low priced contracts through ROFR and resell points as direct at a higher price, why not? Of course, this does not benefit New members but improves bottom line for DVD. As mentioned previously, there are alternatives which DVD is likely considering comparing RIV to VGF sales although other factors are involved.

 

[Sandisw]

I’ve never understood Disney’s dissatisfaction with the resale market. Disney was paid exactly what they were asking for the contract at the time they sold it. What do they care if a dues paying member sells the contract to another person who will pay dues versus having the original member keep the contract? As long as Disney keeps getting their dues paid, what’s the big deal?

It is about getting new buyers into the door...not the previous ones. If a new buyer can get the same product for a lot less resale, why go direct?

When we first bought in 2009, the difference was not that big, so it really didn't matter which way you want. Now, you are talking a lot of money so I think they wanted to find a way to move the needle.

 

[Bjaiken77]

It is about getting new buyers into the door...not the previous ones. If a new buyer can get the same product for a lot less resale, why go direct?

When we first bought in 2009, the difference was not that big, so it really didn't matter which way you want. Now, you are talking a lot of money so I think they wanted to find a way to move the needle.

Yeah, it just seems scandalous. You got paid. The price gap increased because Disney keeps raising the price. Keep new people buying direct by offering a better product with incentives and perks that promote buying direct instead of punishing those for buying resale.

A resale buyer is only getting the years left on the contract - not a full 50. That should be the only deterrent other than what Disney direct can add. Instead, they went the subtraction route. This is only because Disney has done such a poor job adding carrots that they must resort to the stick to compete with resale.

 

[Sandisw]

Yeah, it just seems scandalous. You got paid. The price gap increased because Disney keeps raising the price. Keep new people buying direct by offering a better product with incentives and perks that promote buying direct instead of punishing those for buying resale.

A resale buyer is only getting the years left on the contract - not a full 50. That should be the only deterrent other than what Disney direct can add. Instead, they went the subtraction route. This is only because Disney has done such a poor job adding carrots that they must resort to the stick to compete with resale.

Honestly, I think it makes a lot of sense as to why they are doing it for the standpoint of sales. Remember, DVD themselves can not offer incidental benefits on their own. They are deals they have to make with other divisions or third parties. So, its not that simple to just add things when they are out of your control...case in point, the AP. Also, direct or resale, the expiration date is the same so there is not a way to make that the only difference.

But, it is not like people buying resale don't know what they are getting...they do. And, they trade the savings for a product that does not trade everywhere today...and potentially in the future...

 

[RoseGold]

I’ve never understood Disney’s dissatisfaction with the resale market. Disney was paid exactly what they were asking for the contract at the time they sold it. What do they care if a dues paying member sells the contract to another person who will pay dues versus having the original member keep the contract? As long as Disney keeps getting their dues paid, what’s the big deal?

Because they are competing with their legacy products. Suddenly, that Boardwalk chart looks quaint, and the contract is way cheaper to buy in. Maybe that's more appealing than financing 50 years in a building that isn't open yet. The restrictions don't help them now, but they do as more O14 age out and more new restricted properties are added.

 

[Bjaiken77]

Fair points above. But this comes down to competition. In a sense, what you have to give versus what you can get away with. We haven’t seen the dust settle on restricted points yet. We don’t have a ton of RIV sellers and buyers right now.

Remember, the internet can be a loud place. We have the possibility (at least) of seeing a lot of upset RIV buyers (who were not informed of resale restrictions at the time of purchase) flooding the internet with negative feedback on DVC.

There likely will be a fair number of these folks once they learn VGF went on sale after RIV (or in parallel to RIV). Who knows about Poly? This idea of going back and reselling legacy resorts is a new thing. But that’s a whole different thread.

I feel like Disney needs the resale market. You don’t hear any frustrations from original buyers because they are generally able to get out with a profit. That has garnered DVC a lot of good will toward their product. Again, you don’t hear any “I bought DVC and am stuck for life” threads because people usually can get out on positive terms. What if they can’t get out or the experience is far less positive?

We’ll see. Like I said, Disney is clearly placing their flag on top of the hill that says resale restrictions, now and in the future, will not hurt our product. This not something we need to give resale buyers anymore. We’ll see how it shakes out. I, personally, am not sure this is where they should be placing their flag.

 

[wnielsen1]

I was thinking about all of the discussions going on about the future of restrictions: the Poly will have them, the Poly won’t have them, Disney might remove them at Riviera, Disney will never remove Riviera, etc. I have this thought that Riviera owners might hate but that just might make sense. What if Disney decided to keep restrictions but offered the chance to upgrade your points so that they weren’t restricted. This would, of course, only apply to resell points. For some fee, say $25/point, you get the option to upgrade your points. This upgrade would not qualify you for Blue Card status, it would only apply to where you can book stays.
It opens a new, basically free, revenue stream for Disney. They would be able to, just like direct points, raise the price every year. It does dampen their pitch that you must buy direct - but let’s be honest, there are some people that will not consider buying direct. I think it could be a winning formula. I would certainly consider such an offer. Of course, there are many people on here much smarter than me that will probably be able to point out why this is a horrible idea. What do you think, would you pay to upgrade resell points - resell Genie +?

This topic comes up from time to time, but when it is brought up, it typically comes with some unrealistically low upgrade cost (from Disney's perspective). It is going to cost much more to qualify the points. So if there is, for example, a $50 spread between direct and resale, expect it to cost $75/point or even $100/point. They will not set the pricing where it entices someone to pay for resale + upgrade instead of just buying direct points.

 

[Sandisw]

Fair points above. But this comes down to competition. In a sense, what you have to give versus what you can get away with. We haven’t seen the dust settle on restricted points yet. We don’t have a ton of RIV sellers and buyers right now.

Remember, the internet can be a loud place. We have the possibility (at least) of seeing a lot of upset RIV buyers (who were not informed of resale restrictions at the time of purchase) flooding the internet with negative feedback on DVC.

There likely will be a fair number of these folks once they learn VGF went on sale after RIV (or in parallel to RIV). Who knows about Poly? This idea of going back and reselling legacy resorts is a new thing. But that’s a whole different thread.

I feel like Disney needs the resale market. You don’t hear any frustrations from original buyers because they are generally able to get out with a profit. That has garnered DVC a lot of good will toward their product. Again, you don’t hear any “I bought DVC and am stuck for life” threads because people usually can get out on positive terms. What if they can’t get out or the experience is far less positive?

We’ll see. Like I said, Disney is clearly placing their flag on top of the hill that says resale restrictions, now and in the future, will not hurt our product. This not something we need to give resale buyers anymore. We’ll see how it shakes out. I, personally, am not sure this is where they should be placing their flag.

You can not buy RIV from DVD without signing an additional paper that outlines them in detail, which is in addition to the language included in the POS. So, any one who is buying knows and can’t say or be upset they did not. It is not hidden in anyway.

If they continue with them and play the long game, as many of us think they will, then in 2042 when popular locations of BWV and BCV become restricted, resale buyers may find themselves upset.

I have already read posts here and elsewhere about Poly tower and how people never thought about new DVC villas being put at a current resort and being restricted..which, of course, we don’t know yet if that is what will happen.

So, we shall see, as you say, how this all plays out. I still think the pandemic played a role in changing things. I do not think BPK…or maybe even Poly tower..would have happened as Reflections would have been a go.

 

[Bjaiken77]

You can not buy RIV from DVD without signing an additional paper that outlines them in detail, which is in addition to the language included in the POS. So, any one who is buying knows and can’t say or be upset they did not. It is not hidden in anyway.

If they continue with them and play the long game, as many of us think they will, then in 2042 when popular locations of BWV and BCV become restricted, resale buyers may find themselves upset.

I have already read posts here and elsewhere about Poly tower and how people never thought about new DVC villas being put at a current resort and being restricted..which, of course, we don’t know yet if that is what will happen.

So, we shall see, as you say, how this all plays out. I still think the pandemic played a role in changing things. I do not think BPK…or maybe even Poly tower..would have happened as Reflections would have been a go.

Well, you know I love RIV, so for me, it’s pretty academic. I still would like the resale restrictions dropped because I think it’s better for the product (which I own) and you never know what life will throw at you.

That said, I’m not sure resale restrictions to a new buyer have much meaning, and I don’t remember my guide saying much about them. I already knew they existed, so you can attribute that to one of two things: 1) I wasn’t paying attention or 2) the guide never told me. If I wasn’t paying attention, you could say the amount of paperwork thrown at someone on contract signing day would allow a detail like this to possibly be lost on a person or not fully understood. If my guide didn’t tell me, that speaks for itself. Regardless, I assure you there will be people who are surprised by resale restrictions when they go to sell and are mad about it. And they will be mad because it will be the first time they are understanding.

Finally, since the incentive for Disney and the rep is to make the sale, I doubt they shed light or attention on the resale restrictions in the same way someone would if they were looking out for a buyer’s best interest. In that, I feel fairly confident.

That said, I get the game and I’m informed. It doesn’t bother me in that I’ve accepted the terms, but I think there are better ways of doing business. That part does bother me.

 

[Sandisw]

Well, you know I love RIV, so for me, it’s pretty academic. I still would like the resale restrictions dropped because I think it’s better for the product (which I own) and you never know what life will throw at you.

That said, I’m not sure resale restrictions to a new buyer have much meaning, and I don’t remember my guide saying much about them. I already knew they existed, so you can attribute that to one of two things: 1) I wasn’t paying attention or 2) the guide never told me. If I wasn’t paying attention, you could say the amount of paperwork thrown at someone on contract signing day would allow a detail like this to possibly be lost on a person or not fully understood. If my guide didn’t tell me, that speaks for itself. Regardless, I assure you there will be people who are surprised by resale restrictions when they go to sell and are mad about it. And they will be mad because it will be the first time they are understanding.

Finally, since the incentive for Disney and the rep is to make the sale, I doubt they shed light or attention on the resale restrictions in the same way someone would if they were looking out for a buyer’s best interest. In that, I feel fairly confident.

That said, I get the game and I’m informed. It doesn’t bother me in that I’ve accepted the terms, but I think there are better ways of doing business. That part does bother me.

Guides don’t have to mention. They have that one paper that specifically address them. Sorry, anyone who doesn’t read it or take time to during the 10 day period..it’s on them.

And, it’s not about resale when you buy so I just don’t think it’s on DVD to help you understand that. I personally have no issue with them and just don’t see them as a big deal.

If DVD elimates then great! If they don’t, it’s cools too!