Response to Multiculturalism

Originally posted by Maleficent13
Okay, I'm slightly lost. Did someone here denounce ethics as groundless? If they did, I missed it.

I knew someone would ask this and I debated the idea of clarifying the statement myself. No--to answer your question-- they did not. . but, they are denouncing the idea of making these types of moral judgments--that everything is relative and there is no true knowable reality.

If you'd like to discuss Polanyi's philosophy, that would be an entirely new thread.
 
Originally posted by Maleficent13
Great quote from MLK, Jr.

I am struck not quite speechless by the obvious passion and conviction the OP displays. I am amazed at her grasp of the absolute truths of the universe. Seriously. I am an incredibly introspective person, and I am no closer to reaching absolute truth today than I was when I was born. It must make life so much simpler to have that knowledge. I perhaps envy the simplicity, but cannot emulate it. To me, there is no absolute truth, there is only the one I subscribe to.

There are far too many, in this world of ours, who confuse ideology with truth and principles. They can be the most dangerous among us, and for those of us who are going to be doing some heavy duty time in Purgatory, the most fun to watch. ;)
 
Kendra - have you spent a great deal of time in other lands, immersing yourself in thier culture?

Just trying to get a sense of your firsthand experience with this topic...
 
the OP's viewpoint falls under "moral exceptionalism" which is basically we're right you're wrong.

I think that is what the rest of the world has a problem about.

I also think if we were on the receiving end of this same approach from another country or even an individual we'd also have a problem with it.

Cause as frequently displayed on these and other boards we're just plain contrary.
 

Originally posted by frndshpcptn
Kendra - have you spent a great deal of time in other lands, immersing yourself in thier culture?

Just trying to get a sense of your firsthand experience with this topic...

Yeah right!:rolleyes: I can't wait to hear how it doesn't take
experiencing other cultures to understand them. Take it Kendra!
 
Still voting for Kerry but, thanks anyway for the absurd lecture, Kendra.
edited to add: I too would like to know your background and how you "know so much" about the world and the people of the world.
 
So, Kendra, in addition to being the holder of the "essential knowledge" as well as the "true knowable reality", you also in some way are able to tell from a few written words that one is "denouncing ethics as groundless", that a Kerry supporter is most likely doing so in the belief that "anyone is better than Bush" and that you are "pretty certain that you [referring to me] don't even have a clear idea" of why I support Kerry.

I have to say that after reading a few of your posts, I am in awe of your vast and varied knowledge and skills. Apparently you type so fast that it is quicker to type an article into your post than it would be to link to it (gee, I always cheat and use "cut and paste"). You also are a seeming authority on Islam, Polanyi - if not all philospophy. Please, will you be so kind as to share your credentials? I know that I, for one, would be thrilled to know a bit more about you and your background.
 
Kendra...

:wave:

I for one have enjoyed your posts!!

Thanks for your perspective. I agree with it.
 
Why do folks find it necessary to go after the truth teller, and not respond to the points made in the argument presented? Attacking the messenger is always the easy approach when the argument is not easily refuted. Knowing what we know about these folks and their beliefs, and we know what we know from observing their behavior, and listening to all of their destruction and killing talk (mixed in with "yes, we are peaceful" -type propaganda), why is it wrong or inaccurate to describe such people and such belief systems as wrong and bad?

The situation of our world post 9-11 is self-evident. It doesn't take a leftist academic propagandist to confuse the matter, though they do try and try.

Political correctness describing Islam as a "peaceful religion" cannot be anything but propaganda, as the adherents of that religion have demonstrated by their own actions that they are not at all peaceful. The Koran itself spells out the appalling horrors that adherents are enjoined to commit in the course of being "good" muslims. Only yesterday in Iraq an imprisoned Imam said that he didn't support the hostage takers of women who were trying to get him released through her captivity. He said that it was against Islam (but the kidnapping and beheading men, of course, isn't against Islam). This is perhaps one of three of four times since 9-11 that I have heard any Muslim leader "condemn" the violence, murder and raping of "the faithful".

What I am doing (and I don't understand why it gets folks all up in a tizzy), is to write about what has happened, and what people have said or not said. Folks who cannot, and do not want to, accept the truth will do their best, I think, to disparage the truth tellers. That is the way that humanity has always responded to challenging and difficult situations. Some will tell the truth, some will listen and accept it, and many others will resist it, and fight against it, because it's simply too difficult and painful to accept.

How can you argue with me when these fanatics murdered over 3000 innocent fellow Americans on 9-11? Where were the moderate Muslims on 9/12? They were silent, just as they are now. Why this is the case is up to you to determine. Their purpose in keeping silent only mean one of two things, as there aren't any other options: 1. They agree with the tactics of the killers; 2. they are concerned about retaliation if they speak out against the killers. Islam is certainly known for being intolerant of those who criticize the religion or its leaders. Remember Salman Rushdie? Satanic Verses wasn't a very good book, but he certainly didn't deserve to die for it. And, all of the apologists came out to support that fatwa--from British Trevor-Roper to Edward Said to Yusef Islam.

How can you defend a movement of any kind, a religion of any kind that murders and rapes (yes, rapes, www.sundaymirror.co.uk/tm_objectid=...nifed-babies--they-raped-girls-name_page.html ) 100s of school children in Russia; imply that I'm some type of propagandist when I write of these lunatics sending their children to blow up innocent bus riders on their way to work in Israel; why impugn my education or understanding when I write of these murderers who cut our fellow Americans' heads off then proudly post images of their crimes to the internet? I am just the truth teller here.

I am horrified and appalled that my countrymen are obsessed with health care, increasing minimum wage, public school funding and the like when our very existence is at stake. How is it that so many people cannot see that the world changed fundamentally on 9-11? If we had not gone into Afghanistan and/or Iraq we would now have the same horrors that Israel has to deal with it, but on a much greater scale.

If our people had been this divided during WWII and Roosevelt hadn't been the great leader that he was, we would have lost that war.

Shame on. . .

. . .the democratic party for being so partisan and self-seeking while our soldiers fight for our freedoms overseas.

. . .the democratic party for foisting a failed ultra-left Senator upon us, someone who cares so little for his role as representative of his constituents that he misses over 50% of the Senate votes.

. . .the democratic party for sowing poor morale in our soldiers who do their duty bravely and courageously.

. . .the democratic party for undermining our war effort by agreeing with Kofi Annan and his failed UN that our legitimate measures of self-defense are illegal because he did not give his blessing to the action.

. . .the democratic party for foisting Bill and Hillary Clinton upon us as the leaders of their party, caring only for their self-aggrandizement.

. . .the democratic party for foisting Jimmy Carter upon us and his call for an international review of Florida's upcoming election, implying strongly that we are unable to run an election in the United States, and only an international body can lend legitimacy to our electoral process.

. . .on the democratic party for sending John Kerry's sister to Australia to undermine the government of an active ally during time of war.

. . .John Kerry for criticising our allies during time of war.

. . .John Kerry for his assertions that only the UN can be the arbiter of legitimacy in International affairs of self- defense.

. . .John Kerry for minimizing the sacrifices of our allies during time of war.

. . .John Kerry for maligning the character and capabilities of a sitting president during time of war only for his own political gain, and to the delight of our enemies.

. . .John Kerry for his hypocrisy and Clinton-esque spineless poll-driven campaign.

. . .the democrats for not listening to and following their rational center as represented by Zell Miller and Joe Lieberman.

. . .the democrats for their stridency and vitriol as represented by the new and apparently unbalanced Al Gore.

. . .the democrats for their incomprehensible support of non-supportive allies like France and Germany whose Euro-power agendas no longer mirror our own.

. . .the democrats for implying that Iraq is better off under tyranny.

. . .John Kerry for saying that he would send troops to Sudan for a humanitarian mission but would require UN approval and a Global test for any action that we take internationally in our own defense.

. . .John Kerry for confusing the people by building his campaign upon his Vietnam War service rather than upon the issues of the day.

. . .John Kerry for believing that the people would be blinkered by his Vietnam service and forget about his lackluster no-show on-going Senate "career".

. . .John Kerry for allowing his wife to bring bad language and public insult into the campaign.

Obviously, this is an incomplete list of shame.

Perhaps y'all ought to answer these points and not wonder about my qualifications to make them. No answer I give you will be acceptable. Though I have indeed traveled extensively, this premise that one must have spent much time among murderers is beside the point. Are Holocaust survivors or members of the SS the only ones able to understand and draw conclusions regarding Nazi Germany? Are elite Communist Party members vacationing in their dachas--better yet-- those less fortunate that survived the Gulags the only ones to understand communism? If I was at D-Day does that mean I understand Nazism or WW11 or Hitlerism, or the rise of fascism in Europe or the failure of the German people, or the holocaust, or any other component? No--all it means is that I know about my small part in D-Day, which was the largest invasion in human history; people spend their entire lives studying those several days around D-day, and never get finished in the study.

The flaw on the Republican side is that Bush is not a great debater, not one to think quickly on his feet. He is not the great speechmaker that Clinton was. He is not a Rhodes Scholar either. But Clinton was, and his historical record will be a footnote of shame in comparison to the volumes written about Bush, and the Bush doctrine of active self-defense.

There is too much at stake in this election for me to remain silent. Kerry is the wrong man at the wrong time, in the wrong place. The man and the hour have not met, and never will. I will enjoy watching Kerry, Edwards, and Kennedy squirm in their Senate seats, those few times that they will be in attendance, with Cheney back on the dais, and Bush back in the Oval Office.

There is too much at stake. The democratic party must reform itself, and the United States must defend itself.

Have a nice day.
 
Because, they have no valid response, or original reply. If you don't like the message kill the messenger.

You have to admit, they are evolving, last election was if you don't like the results, recount, if you don't like the recount, sue.

And before that, if they didn't like the message, they just cut off their ears. BTW, that's why so many of them appear to be deaf!

-TonyX
 
Originally posted by Kendra17
Why do folks find it necessary to go after the truth teller, and not respond to the points made in the argument presented?

When one is so presumptious as to refer to oneself as a "truth teller", one has opened the gates for responses to that assertion.

What you are expressing is your opinion - not an ultimate truth. While I may agree with your opinion on several points where it is related to fundamentalist Muslims (and I very deliberately differentiate between the fundamentalists and other of the Islamic faith), I certainly do not agree with all your beliefs. I also do not think what you have written is the "truth" no matter how strongly you may believe so.
 
"Judge not, lest you be judged."

oops...sorry...this isn't the favorite quotes thread. My mistake.

Oh, well...works just as well here.
 
Originally posted by LisaZoe
When one is so presumptious as to refer to oneself as a "truth teller", one has opened the gates for responses to that assertion.


That is not the thrust of my argument, LisaZoe; I hope you don't make it yours. That would make this a word game. That I consider myself knowledgeable should be an asset in this discussion. Are only those who profess to be ill-informed worthy of taking part in a debate such as this? I'm certain the facts that I presented can be differentiated from the opinion I shared and, if we can avoid obfuscation, that would be of benefit, too.

Edited to add: i'm off for now, though. . and Maleficent. . .your quote is well understood but, imo, misguided. Judging is how we develop the moral code we live by--whether formed by tradition, experience, or some type of combination. Judging is not a bad thing. . .we grow, change, and respond according to the judgments we make about other belief systems, cultures, and behaviors. Even about things as mundane as fashion choices. Without judgment, there's no change in the status quo.
 
There's so much to discuss here, I don't even know where to start. Why don't we do this, piece by piece?

Originally posted by Kendra17
Why do folks find it necessary to go after the truth teller, and not respond to the points made in the argument presented?

It seems to me that I've done this twice, and you haven't responded. I have already shown the fallacy in your logic, and instead you just moved on to posting some other ridiculous nonsense. If you want to debate, and claim to know so much, let's have a response. I'm still waiting to hear your response about absolute truth....


Attacking the messenger is always the easy approach when the argument is not easily refuted.

2 things: The argument was already refuted. Attacking the messanger is easy when the messanger is crazy.


Knowing what we know about these folks and their beliefs, and we know what we know from observing their behavior, and listening to all of their destruction and killing talk (mixed in with "yes, we are peaceful" -type propaganda), why is it wrong or inaccurate to describe such people and such belief systems as wrong and bad?

This is where things fall apart for you. Are you really so blind as to believe that all Arabs are terrorists, or that they all engage in killing and violence. You're taking a small percentage of people and using that as basis for judgement of an entire people. Do you also denounce all Christians just because a few crazies kill abortion doctors? Every religion has their lunatics. You just haven't realized that they don't represent the entire people. Time to wake up Kendra.


Political correctness describing Islam as a "peaceful religion" cannot be anything but propaganda, as the adherents of that religion have demonstrated by their own actions that they are not at all peaceful.

I'm going to attempt to not get angry here. You have branded an entire religion because of a small group of extremists. Not only is it insulting and offensive, it's also just factually incorrect. Maybe you should actually learn a little about a religion before you start proclaiming your absolute truths.


Only yesterday in Iraq an imprisoned Imam said that he didn't support the hostage takers of women who were trying to get him released through her captivity. He said that it was against Islam (but the kidnapping and beheading men, of course, isn't against Islam). This is perhaps one of three of four times since 9-11 that I have heard any Muslim leader "condemn" the violence, murder and raping of "the faithful".


Well you obviously haven't been listening then. But hey, it makes things so much easier to just be ignorant, doesn't it?


How can you argue with me when these fanatics murdered over 3000 innocent fellow Americans on 9-11? Where were the moderate Muslims on 9/12? They were silent, just as they are now.

You know, for being a truth teller, you don't seem to have a whole lot of truth in here. Take a look at some of these web sites(which, by the way, took all of 5 minutes to find). Maybe a little research would help next time, instead of baseless rhetoric.

Omid Safi, Colgate University, “Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th,” http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Tim Lubin, Washington and Lee University, “Islamic Responses to the Sept. 11 Attack,” http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/islamonWTC.htm

The Becket Fund, “Osama Bin Laden Hijacked Four Airplanes and a Religion,” October 17, 2001, http://www.becketfund.org/other/MuslimAd.html

Islam for Today, “Muslims Against Terrorism,” http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

ReligiousTolerance.org, “Aftermath of the 9-11 Terrorist Attack: Voices of Moderate Muslims,” http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

Islamic Stand on Terrorism: An International Conference, Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 20-22 April 2004, http://www.islamstand.org/english/abaakail.htm


How can you defend a movement of any kind, a religion of any kind that murders

I take it you're not too big on any religion then, since most have been responsible for murder at one time or another.


I am horrified and appalled that my countrymen are obsessed with health care, increasing minimum wage, public school funding and the like when our very existence is at stake.

Nothing like voting based on fear.

Offensive, racist comment in 5,4,3,2,1...

... this premise that one must have spent much time among murderers is beside the point.

If you've got something legitimate to say, let's hear it. But stop with the offensive blanket statements and flat out lies.
 
Originally posted by LisaZoe
When one is so presumptious as to refer to oneself as a "truth teller", one has opened the gates for responses to that assertion.

Originally posted by Kendra17
That is not the thrust of my argument, LisaZoe; I hope you don't make it yours. That would make this a word game. That I consider myself knowledgeable should be an asset in this discussion. Are only those who profess to be ill-informed worthy of taking part in a debate such as this? I'm certain the facts that I presented can be differentiated from the opinion I shared and, if we can avoid obfuscation, that would be of benefit, too.

In general, Kendra, I avoid posting to political threads and would probably have just glanced at this one and moved on if you had not made such statements as being a "truth teller" and wanting to share some "essential knowledge". The reason I did post was more to comment on those statements than anything political. Since you seemed surprised anyone would "go after you" rather than responding to your message, I'd hoped to point out why I did so, although I was not "after you" but rather questioning your use of those terms.

I strongly support your right to express your opinions and beliefs as long as you are clear that is what they are. Once you start trying to pass them off as "truth" or "essential knowledge" than I will ask you to present proof that you are, indeed, a "truth teller" and holder of such knowledge.

BTW - As for your arguments about Kerry, multiculturalism, etc., I don't respond to that since, as I said, I avoid arguing politics. You have your opinion, I have mine and I very much doubt either of us will be swayed by the other. As such, it is an exercise in futility to even respond to such arguments.
 
From the truth tellers of the Left.

Originally posted by oracle
There's so much to discuss here, I don't even know where to start. Why don't we do this, piece by piece?



(which, by the way, took all of 5 minutes to find). Maybe a little research would help next time, instead of baseless rhetoric.

Omid Safi, Colgate University, “Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th,” http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm

Tim Lubin, Washington and Lee University, “Islamic Responses to the Sept. 11 Attack,” http://home.wlu.edu/~lubint/islamonWTC.htm

The Becket Fund, “Osama Bin Laden Hijacked Four Airplanes and a Religion,” October 17, 2001, http://www.becketfund.org/other/MuslimAd.html

Islam for Today, “Muslims Against Terrorism,” http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

ReligiousTolerance.org, “Aftermath of the 9-11 Terrorist Attack: Voices of Moderate Muslims,” http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter16.htm

Islamic Stand on Terrorism: An International Conference, Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, 20-22 April 2004, http://www.islamstand.org/english/abaakail.htm

Your reply certainly shows that you spent all of five minutes with your 'research'

Most of these links are dead and/or moved. Most of the few that still work are duplicates.

None of your sources are reputable, and most are from known Arabic and/or Islamic propaganda sites.

You reply showns your prejudices clearly!

I believe you are the 'crazy one', not Kendra who actually thinks for herself, doesn't just cut and paste dead links from Arabic propaganda sites!

Talk about rhetoric. Facts are Facts. The majority of known terrorists are Islamic believers. Are all Muslims terrorists, of course not! However, are most terrorists Muslim, Absolutely!


What a waste of time!

-TonyX
 
Originally posted by snarfer1
From the truth tellers of the Left.

Your reply certainly shows that you spent all of five minutes with your 'research'

Most of these links are dead and/or moved. Most of the few that still work are duplicates.

None of your sources are reputable, and most are from known Arabic and/or Islamic propaganda sites.

Funny, Colgate University and Washington and Lee University are not reputable? The links were all provided by a report done by the University of North Carolina. And how does one of them not working=most of them not working. There is nothing propaganda about them. They are direct quotes from prominent Arabs. But nice try.


I believe you are the 'crazy one', not Kendra who actually thinks for herself, doesn't just cut and paste dead links from Arabic propaganda sites!

Yeah, cut and paste, that's all I do. And last time I checked, University websites weren't Arabic propaganda sites. Again, nice try.

Are all Muslims terrorists, of course not!

Well that was certainly the implications of Kendra's post. So you go right on supporting her.
 
Perhaps y'all ought to answer these points and not wonder about my qualifications to make them. No answer I give you will be acceptable. Though I have indeed traveled extensively, this premise that one must have spent much time among murderers is beside the point. Are Holocaust survivors or members of the SS the only ones able to understand and draw conclusions regarding Nazi Germany? Are elite Communist Party members vacationing in their dachas--better yet-- those less fortunate that survived the Gulags the only ones to understand communism?

Kendra, several things:

First, I want to make sure this is really you responding. I usually read your posts and although don't agree with most of the things you say at least think you are reasonable. Now, not so much.

Second, in your post above you ask us to agree that outsiders can understand and draw conclusions about foreign topics. I agree they can, but do need to add that unless you are immersed in a situation you only have a third-party view. Yes, the Nazi's were atrocious. But to think that I can fully understand the horrors that the SS inflicted on my relatives is presumptious and insulting to those who lived it.

Third, no one is arguing that there are bad apples in every society. But to state that our culture is better for everyone in the world is naive. I just spent time in Israel. I thought before I went there that they were a lot like us. And in many ways they are. But n many ways they aren't. I stayed on a kibbutz and saw first hand the influence of thier Eastern European Socialist roots. Now, that may not work for us, but for them it seems to be working pretty well. They needed that community to get the country started and they did a very good job. Who am I to say that my American way would be better. In fact, it probably would not have been. Things work very differently around the world and you need to understand that. Orthodox women in Israel are segregated from men in temple. Do I agree? Nope. But they do. Its how they were rased and its a deep part of who they are.

As for the Arabic nations, to judge them all by the actions of some is wrong. Do you judge all of Germany on Hitler? Italy on Mussolni? I am not saying that I think all Arabs are great. They aren't. But I met some really nice Arab-Israelis while abroad who live peacefully side by side with thier neigbors and don't want to murder all the Jews in Isael. My father always said never to trust an Arab, but I think that comes from fear. Fear that they will continue to try and destroy the only homeland the Jews ave ever known.

Fourth, you ask who would support a religion that advocates violence and murder. Well, you had better renounce your belief in Jesus, because your brethern used his name to try and rid Spain of the Jews in the 1500s, Russia of the Jews in the 1800's, Germany of the Jews in the 1900s and I'll bet its not the last time it happens. All religions have factions that stray from the manstream.
 
Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I agree with much of what you said, but not all. I stand by my statement that one does not have to spend much time in other countries to understand history and the present situation. That said, I have traveled extensively. My point was, and remains, the same. Soon, all the holocaust survivors will be gone--when this happens, will the rest of us not be able to judge the Nazi goal as evil? Will some relativist tell us that although I have every right to espouse whatever view I want to espouse, it is incorrect to judge the Nazi regime as evil because I wasn't there to gain firsthand knowledge? With all due respect to your relatives, who I pray survived that horrid time in history, they had but their own experience. It took communication with the other survivors, communication with the other inmates, reading political and military history to get a fuller picture. The victims knew they were being treated as if they were the scourge of the earth. . .they also knew they were being maltreated. Until it was over, did they understand what the entire intent was? I would venture to say no--they may have guessed the entire intent, but they couldn't have known the full chronology of events until it was over. Absolutely, this does not minimize their experience. I have more empathy for those that suffered under that regime than you can possibly imagine. I am just trying to explain that, when they all are gone, their plight has to be remembered with truthfulness and we cannot be afraid to judge the Nazis with the full horror they deserve. Do me a favor, ask one of your surviving relatives what they think. I'd guess that they want you to pass on the knowledge they may have shared with you (although, I do recognize that many survivors have a difficult time sharing their stories. But, that's what these Holocaust projects are about. . so we never forget, as a society, and to counter the revisionist histories being written and published for those in the future).

I never said the entire Muslim culture. I have never said this on any thread--and I don't believe that a statement such as this would be true. What we know, however, is this: although most Muslims are not terrorists, almost all terrorists are Muslim. That is a truth. Now, knowing that truth, there are a few conclusions that can be drawn. Now, and I am not the exclusive holder of this belief--that there may be some fundamental flaw in the culture of Islam that would cause a disproportionate amount of terrorists to be borne from this culture. You can dispute this, but can you give an alternative? The only alternatives I have seen is given from the blame America and Israel crowd. That is a whole different argument and although I welcomed this one at first, it is fairly draining, so I hesitate to start that. I dismiss that argument, though. The Jewish people were persecuted for much much longer than Muslims and they NEVER resorted to the type of terrorism that these Islamists resort to. And, yes, I am familiar with history and I know that there were incidents of terror prior to the creation of the State of Israel. But, were the Israelis bombing up buses and shooting children in their beds? No. Were they raping and murdering innocents? No. Were they targeting innocents--including children? Absolutely not. Unless one is a relativist, there is no way these deeds are comparable.

Secondly, I posited two points that I don't believe can be refuted. Daniel Pipes has estimated that the extreme Muslims number about 8%. So, according to him, that's about 92% moderate. Yes, Oracle gave me some sites to look at. However, those are a few quiet voices among many loud voices and I'm skeptical of these sites, because they are not written critically. If I write in "Islam religion peace", and press "search", I will bring up sites like that, as well. The voices of the dangerous minority has almost completely silenced the voices of the moderate minority. Again. . .what can be the reason for this? 1- The minority doesn't really disagree with these deeds that are committed--in which case their silence is tacit approval, or 2-they are afraid of retribution from the Muslim community if they do indeed speak out against their brethren and their religion. There are many many cases of Muslims that want to live in peace--I certainly don't dispute that--I have empathy for all that live under oppression--whether under an oppressive regime or an oppressive household.

Islam, is not known to be the most tolerant of religions. . .although I'm sure I'll get flamed just for saying that particular statement on this particular thread. However, it's the very devout that are the dangerous in Islam--for the most part, I guess, since there are also those with a strong political cause that kill over it. And, to compare that to the few Christian anti-abortionists is just ludicrous. Those that commit murder are condemned in our society. And, Christians (and I am not a Christian) do not approve of this and it isn't done with biblical endorsement. . .a key difference. And, the mainstream churches don't endorse those deeds either. The Koran DOES endorse Jihad. And, those that follow it believe they are going to heaven over it. This is a CULTURAL problem. Whether this represents the minority is of no matter. This a culture that is producing mass murderers that commit gruesome acts of terror directed at INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

I was arguing that Western culture is better than Arab culture. I was not arguing that the United States, specifically, is the best country in the world. . .although I am certainly grateful to have been born and raised here. That you spent time on a kibbutz is wonderful. Did you know that many of these collective farms have closed over the last 10-15 years or so? I am not sure that in itself is much of a point, but I don't think that the kibbutz is representative of Israeli culture as a whole--at least not anymore. At its height of popularity, only 6% of the population lived on them. Also, that Orthodox Jews are segregated in the synagogue is also not equivalent to the misogyny that's prevalent in Islam. Judaism does not advocate polygamy (yes, it's there in the bible, but it's not practiced or advocated in any form) and does not advocate physical violence.

There are values that ARE good for everyone. Those values include affirming life, freedom, education, scientific discovery, pursuit of knowledge, religious freedom, monogomy, equal rights. The reason I state these are absolute truths is because, if one follows these truths, there isn't war, there isn't terrorism, there isn't tyranny, there isn't exploitation of innocents--there is only a just society that values all--with the exception, of course, of those that refuse to end tyranny and subjugation. That other cultures don't presently AGREE with these "truths" is of no matter. Ours promotes peace and fights for justice. I know the blame America first crowd doesn't see this. Our culture has had a more positive effect on the world--and continues to do so for all the reasons I have mentioned.

We certainly don't judge all of Germany on Hitler, but we do judge the actions of the Germans during WWII--were they turning in their neighbors? Looting homes? We also judge their behavior post-WWII. . .and they have done everything possible to eradicate racism. . .although, it can be argued that it hasn't had the intended effect.

I don't know what to say about your father's comments. I do know that many textbooks in the middle east don't list Israel as a country, and list it as "the Holy Land" or "Palestine". The ones that do list Israel, often show Israel with pre-1967 borders. Why do you think the Palestinians want the Right to Return? To change the demographics of the country. Why hasn't Jordan accepted the "refugees'? Many would say it's because then the Palestinians still can fight for this right to return and keep their victimhood status. The Arabs that live in Israel live there in peace because it is a democracy that values religious freedom. Many Arabs PREFER living in Israel because of this reason. Many Arab countries don't even allow those of other religions to enter their countries or to speak about the value of their own religion.

As I said, I'm not a Christian, but I admire Christianity. There are some key points you are neglecting in your argument. First of all, Christianity has evolved since the middle ages. Secondly, the bible itself doesn't explicity order to commit the equivalent of Jihad. Thirdly, Christianity presently focuses on peace and, more recently, social justice within a Christian framework. You are correct, I see the surge in anti-semitism in Europe. Most of that is perpetuated, by the way, by the Muslims. You have read this, right?

Yes, all religions have some that stray from the mainstream. . .but we are talking about an 8% of a population of 1.5 billion. That's an awful lot of extremists. And, there are more sympathizers. And, there are more people converting to this more extreme type of Islam.

Who knows more about Islam? Oracle or Osama bin Laden? I would venture to guess Osama bin Laden.
 
Kendra - first of all, I apologize for assuming that you were a Christain. I should not have.

Second, I just want to make sure I understand your point of view. You are aruging that Western Culture (not just U.S. culture, but any Westernized society including Europe, etc.) is superior to any Arabic Culture. What about the other cultures of the world? Where do they fall into place? I'm asking seriously here, that was not a sarcastic comment. There has been so much written on this thread so far that I want to make sure I am staying on point.

I do want to discuss the other points in your responses (i.e. never forgeting the Holocaust, Israel/Palestine, appreciating other cultures, etc.) but want to make sure I am understanding the fundamental point of the thread first.

Thank you.
 


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