Response to Multiculturalism

[oracle]

Originally posted by Kendra17
I understand this view; I believe it is flawed. Of course, to many in the Arab world, their view would be radically different. What I'm asserting is that there is an Absolute Truth--that Western society and culture are superior to that of the Arab world's.

This is where your argument fails though. To assert an absolute truth on something subjective like this is impossible.

To make this assertion, there must be a criteria.

This is what I'm talking about. You are the one setting the criteria, so of course you'll get the result you're looking for. The whole argument is a non-starter, logically, because there is no absolute truth when it comes to a matter of opinion(which this issue, despite your best efforts, remains).

And, of course, just 'cause we say it is, doesn't mean all cultures will agree with us. That seems besides the point.

This isn't besides the point, it IS the point. There is nothing wrong with favoring your culture or preferring it above all others. But to assert that yours is better in some sort of absolute terms doesn't work.

The point would be for those of us to UNDERSTAND the inherent truth and subsequently take pride in and defend our culture and/or values.

This is different. I see nothing wrong with defending your culture. I prefer ours over all others, just like you do. But I also don't expect everyone to have that same view. Not everyone has the same morals or values the same things that we do. Thus, they are not likely to see things the way we do. They would probably present their culture as being far superior, and in their eyes, it would be just as valid an argument.

What culture values life? What culture values those with differing religious views? What culture values all races and both genders? What country places value on critical thinking skills, intellectual curiosity, dissent? What culture believes we all have a right to pursue happiness and freedom of opportunity? What culture places value on monogomy--thereby teaching their daughters and sons that both men AND women are worthy? These things should be the criteria.

Again, you have set the criteria, so your argument for absolute truth cannot succeed. Your criteria emphasizes the things that our culture considers important, so of course it would make ours superior. Many in the Arab world would have completely different criteria, and thus, different results.

The Arab world also does not value life

I'd be interested to hear what you're talking about here.

The criteria I've mentioned MEANS something to US. To dismiss our own value system when judging others does not do anything to further Good.

Exactly. It means something to you and me. But not to everyone. I'm not saying to dismiss our culture, or to accept every other culture on all levels. My point is only that you have to realize that everything you're arguing is based on perspective. There is no absolute truth here.

 

[spewey]

Sure there's an absolute truth here - people living in Ottawa should NOT be rooting for the Maple Leafs.

Then again, people living in Toronto shouldn't be rooting for them, either ...

 

[danacara]

Originally posted by Kendra17
My lovely husband doesn't post on here regularly. And, his name is not Louie.

Very intuitive tag then.

 

[Maleficent13]

I have been trying to come up with a well thought out response to this, but owing to my busy day have been unable to. Thank goodness oracle did it for me!

 

[JoeThaNo1Stunna]

Originally posted by oracle


This is where your argument fails though. To assert an absolute truth on something subjective like this is impossible.

[/b]

This is what I'm talking about. You are the one setting the criteria, so of course you'll get the result you're looking for. The whole argument is a non-starter, logically, because there is no absolute truth when it comes to a matter of opinion(which this issue, despite your best efforts, remains).




This isn't besides the point, it IS the point. There is nothing wrong with favoring your culture or preferring it above all others. But to assert that yours is better in some sort of absolute terms doesn't work.



This is different. I see nothing wrong with defending your culture. I prefer ours over all others, just like you do. But I also don't expect everyone to have that same view. Not everyone has the same morals or values the same things that we do. Thus, they are not likely to see things the way we do. They would probably present their culture as being far superior, and in their eyes, it would be just as valid an argument.



Again, you have set the criteria, so your argument for absolute truth cannot succeed. Your criteria emphasizes the things that our culture considers important, so of course it would make ours superior. Many in the Arab world would have completely different criteria, and thus, different results.




I'd be interested to hear what you're talking about here.



Exactly. It means something to you and me. But not to everyone. I'm not saying to dismiss our culture, or to accept every other culture on all levels. My point is only that you have to realize that everything you're arguing is based on perspective. There is no absolute truth here. [/B]

Maybe it is subjective, but who cares? When you look at objective criteria, the Western World and the United States provides the best opportunities for expression, religious freedom, and economic mobility. In any book I'd say that makes us best.

Leave it to the self-loathing blame America first crowd or Canadians to bash America on every introspective thread on this board.

 

[oracle]

Originally posted by JoeThaNo1Stunna
Maybe it is subjective, but who cares? When you look at objective criteria, the Western World and the United States provides the best opportunities for expression, religious freedom, and economic mobility. In any book I'd say that makes us best.

Again, your criteria, your culture wins. Did you miss that whole point?

Leave it to the self-loathing blame America first crowd or Canadians to bash America on every introspective thread on this board.

What in God's name are you talking about? Nowhere did I bash America, Western culture, or anything else. I pointed out the flaw in an argument touting an absolute truth. Where you got that to mean bashing America, I'll never know. Read a little more carefully before you start making wild accusations.

 

[LisaZoe]

JoeThaNo1Stunna, why would you consider this to be an introspective thread? I don't think the OP was doing much "soul-searching". When one resorts to name calling and other forms of "bashing" those expressing an opposing viewpoint, one just shows how little thought has gone into one's viewpoint if it cannot be supported with facts and rational arguments.

 

[Rokkitsci]

There is so much good reading here that I have not had time to digest it - much less generate a point by point reply to things I disagree with - nor to celebrate the things I do agree with.

However, I do have very firm opinions on multicuturalism.

First - one has to differentiate between culture and citizenship. When you decide to make a country your own, whether by birth, choice, or necessity, you have to become a citizen of that country to function within it. That means you have to respect, if not honor, the dominant culture of that country. Whatever culture you came from has to be relegated in your public persona to the minimal requirements of the dominant culture.

When you are at home with your family, or with similarly situated acquaintances, you should practice your original (or adopted)culture as you see fit. You should honor it - you should make sure your children were steeped in its values - you should keep alive any ceremonies that go with it - you should enjoy it to the full extent of your desire to do so.

But, you should not demand - nor even expect - the dominant culture to join you in your revelry - to them what you are doing may seem strange - or silly - or counterproductive - or just plain boring. It doesn't matter if it is the most important thing to you in the world.

In addition, one should make sure they and their children are well prepared to interact in the dominant culture. If you are not prepared to immerse yourself in the culture of the nation in which you are living - then you should go back to where you came from, or go to a different place that is more to your liking.

For instance, I do not think that I, as an American born in the USA, should be required to know six languages in order to buy a cup of coffee at a convenience store. It is my belief that when a person moves to my country, he should learn my language if he wants to engage in business with me. Of course, I just choose new convenience stores to buy my coffee when that happens. But the point is that in order to be productive, in order to do something besides sell coffee in a convenience store, the new citizen should learn the English language.

Second - one needs to realize that the current emphasis on "multiculturism" is a thinly veiled attempt to do two things:
- provide cover for failed educational policies, and
- begin the process of "balkanizing" America.

***educational failures
I am a retired aerospace engineer, and a retired professional photographer, who has recently decided to become a high school math teacher. I can easily compare the educational system of fifty years ago with the system we have today.

In earning my certification to teach, a two year process which I have just completed, I found to my dismay that "multiculturalism" was the watchword of the day. Nothing in education today is stressed more than MC. It is pervasive in the curriculum. Every level of education is infected with it.

I have never understood how the principles of mathmatics were at all effected by the culture within which it was being learned. Indeed - one of my points about math is that you could go to Mars, and if you found intelligent life there, you could communicate immediately thru the use of mathematics.

But somehow, the educational powers that be think that we should somehow make sure that our math instruction is equally 'acceptable' to any 'culture' that happens to be in the classroom.

Stupidity of that magnitude could only be the invention of a government beaurocrat with nothing useful to do and lots of time in which to get it done.

*****balkanization
The most sinister aspect of multiculturalism is that it tends to isolate different "tribes" from one another and breeds envy, jealousy, fear, and anxiety. In other words it sows the seeds of civil unrest.

As soon as we as a nation abandon our English language as a uniting force, we are doomed. Nothing holds us together so much as a common language. Nothing will break us into warring tribes as quickly as a multitude of languages.

Somehow, we need to put "multiculturalism" back into the dictionary where it belongs - a strange word that has not much real world application.

We should encourage every culture to treasure its roots and maintain its historical links.

We should demand that all cultures assimilate into the dominant culture, or else choose to be "second class citizens." <~~~ note I said CHOOSE. No one will make them, but if a person chooses to not play by the mainstream rules then the mainstream does not owe him a free pass to success.

We should immediately adopt English as our National Language and require that ALL public business be conducted in English. It should be the responsibility of the non-English speaker to bring an interpreter to do official business, not the other way around.

And yes - I DO believe our culture is superior to any other major national culture in the world. And I really don't care what anyone else thinks of my belief. I know it is not perfect, but nothing else comes close.

I have more to say later.

 

[Kendra17]

The truth of the matter is this--and please excuse my ridiculous positivity as displayed by the existence of this response.

My positivity is beyond impeachment. I consider this post and many of my other ones, but not all, as a small important sacrifice of my time in the hopes of spreading some essential knowledge so that those folks who have been blinkered by popular culture propaganda--leftist academic ideology and misinformation from the mass media--can break free of their bonds.

The failure of multiculturalism and political correctness is a result of their reprehensible moral relavitism. History clearly shows--and current events reiterate the facts-- that there is good and evil in humanity and in nations. Failure to accept this essential truth of life is an Utopian attitude built upon wisps of dreams, smoke from bongs, and cheap whiskey. The truth of the world is much less complicated than the multiculturalist, lefty-academics and Dan Rathers would have you believe.

In accepting Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, there follows a responsibility to act. The reluctance to defeat an evil murderous enemy and the reluctance to even accept the evil of that enemy is a fundamental flaw in our culture that our enemies delight in. Do you suppose there can be any moral ambiguity about the evil of Naziism, the evil of Tojoism, and the current horror of Islamic Fundamentalism? Those who would turn the tables and characterize the United States as the evil party in WWII or today are confused about the nature of the present conflict, the foundations of historical truth, and the way in which the world has always functioned. So many liberals believe that the years of Clinton prosperity somehow signaled the end of all previous cycles of history. This is not at all the case. We have bin Laden, we have Kim Jong Il, and we have resurgent Iran thanks to the insular shallowness and ignorance of the Clinton era.

The accusation of bashing or insulting other cultures that some have levelled against my post are misplaced terms as no bashing occurred. Since when has speaking the truth been equivalent to insult? The truth is what it is, regardless of anybody's opinion and regardless of who delivers that truth. The truth of the nature of our fundamentalist enemy is not open to debate. The truth of their murdering, raping, and destroying-- so that they can get into heaven-- is not also open to debate. So, why then, is saying these truths equivalent to bashing? The truth is what it is.

Why do you suppose our enemies murder people by beheading and shots to the head and other vicious, cruel manners of killing--then proudly post video of their crimes on the internet? This is a conflict of extreme reaction, those who desire to live in the 15th century--which was the last time their culture was considered "great", and those who prefer to move into the future and live today rather than 5 centuries ago. The enemy posts images of their horrible crimes as a weapon to horrify us and shatter our consciousness so that we will be unable to act. The images are so repellent and shocking that, for many people, they have the effect of shutting down that person's ability to fight and respond. The actions of the enemy are so extreme and so far outside the family of humanity that, for most people, the response has been something akin to an intellectual "shutting down". This is exactly what the enemy wants and this defeat of intellectual capacity is exactly the character failure that John Kerry is leveraging.

The nature of this conflict is so disturbing that our own leadership prefers not to share the true nature of it with the people. This may or may not be a good policy. The extreme reaction of those on this board and in the general public to the horrors that they see on television and on the internet, the horrible inhuman crimes of our enemies, are generally beyond the capability of most civilized people to accept. This inability results in denial. Thus, we have multiculturalism run amok; thus, we have political correctness lunacy and the denial of truth-- and, perhaps most importantly now-- we have the do-nothing, no-show, Senator from Massachussetts.

Now, more than ever, perhaps not since WWII, the country needs leadership. We don't need flip-flopping wannabes who respond only to poll numbers rather than reality or core beliefs. The people are confused, and who can blame them--with the mainstream media skewing falsehoods, misstatements, and outright propaganda to confuse the population? Not enough have a firm understanding of history, culture, warfare, or politics. That is why we need clear leadership. Bush understands the nature of the world that we live in post 9-11; Kerry clearly does not.

 

[jjskribs]

Kendra...... thank you so much for your attempt to "enlighten me" but alas, I remain one of the "confused" who will be voting for John Kerry.

 

[luvsTink]

Originally posted by Kendra17

The accusation of bashing or insulting other cultures that some have levelled against my post are misplaced terms as no bashing occurred. Since when has speaking the truth been equivalent to insult? The truth is what it is, regardless of anybody's opinion and regardless of who delivers that truth. The truth of the nature of our fundamentalist enemy is not open to debate. The truth of their murdering, raping, and destroying-- so that they can get into heaven-- is not also open to debate. So, why then, is saying these truths equivalent to bashing? The truth is what it is.

If you re-read your original post, I think you will find that you did indeed cast the ENTIRE arab world as murderous and somehow beneath us.

And I am wondering why, when we were attacked by Timothy McVeigh (no doubt a true lover of the American Way) didn't we bomb the heck out of all the areas where there might be others like him.

And help me understand why dismembering a civilian with a bomb is better than bedheading with a sword.

Anne

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by Kendra17
The truth of the matter is this--and please excuse my ridiculous positivity as displayed by the existence of this response.

My positivity is beyond impeachment. I consider this post and many of my other ones, but not all, as a small important sacrifice of my time in the hopes of spreading some essential knowledge so that those folks who have been blinkered by popular culture propaganda--leftist academic ideology and misinformation from the mass media--can break free of their bonds.

The failure of multiculturalism and political correctness is a result of their reprehensible moral relavitism. History clearly shows--and current events reiterate the facts-- that there is good and evil in humanity and in nations. Failure to accept this essential truth of life is an Utopian attitude built upon wisps of dreams, smoke from bongs, and cheap whiskey. The truth of the world is much less complicated than the multiculturalist, lefty-academics and Dan Rathers would have you believe.

In accepting Right and Wrong, Good and Evil, there follows a responsibility to act. The reluctance to defeat an evil murderous enemy and the reluctance to even accept the evil of that enemy is a fundamental flaw in our culture that our enemies delight in. Do you suppose there can be any moral ambiguity about the evil of Naziism, the evil of Tojoism, and the current horror of Islamic Fundamentalism? Those who would turn the tables and characterize the United States as the evil party in WWII or today are confused about the nature of the present conflict, the foundations of historical truth, and the way in which the world has always functioned. So many liberals believe that the years of Clinton prosperity somehow signaled the end of all previous cycles of history. This is not at all the case. We have bin Laden, we have Kim Jong Il, and we have resurgent Iran thanks to the insular shallowness and ignorance of the Clinton era.

The accusation of bashing or insulting other cultures that some have levelled against my post are misplaced terms as no bashing occurred. Since when has speaking the truth been equivalent to insult? The truth is what it is, regardless of anybody's opinion and regardless of who delivers that truth. The truth of the nature of our fundamentalist enemy is not open to debate. The truth of their murdering, raping, and destroying-- so that they can get into heaven-- is not also open to debate. So, why then, is saying these truths equivalent to bashing? The truth is what it is.

Why do you suppose our enemies murder people by beheading and shots to the head and other vicious, cruel manners of killing--then proudly post video of their crimes on the internet? This is a conflict of extreme reaction, those who desire to live in the 15th century--which was the last time their culture was considered "great", and those who prefer to move into the future and live today rather than 5 centuries ago. The enemy posts images of their horrible crimes as a weapon to horrify us and shatter our consciousness so that we will be unable to act. The images are so repellent and shocking that, for many people, they have the effect of shutting down that person's ability to fight and respond. The actions of the enemy are so extreme and so far outside the family of humanity that, for most people, the response has been something akin to an intellectual "shutting down". This is exactly what the enemy wants and this defeat of intellectual capacity is exactly the character failure that John Kerry is leveraging.

The nature of this conflict is so disturbing that our own leadership prefers not to share the true nature of it with the people. This may or may not be a good policy. The extreme reaction of those on this board and in the general public to the horrors that they see on television and on the internet, the horrible inhuman crimes of our enemies, are generally beyond the capability of most civilized people to accept. This inability results in denial. Thus, we have multiculturalism run amok; thus, we have political correctness lunacy and the denial of truth-- and, perhaps most importantly now-- we have the do-nothing, no-show, Senator from Massachussetts.

Now, more than ever, perhaps not since WWII, the country needs leadership. We don't need flip-flopping wannabes who respond only to poll numbers rather than reality or core beliefs. The people are confused, and who can blame them--with the mainstream media skewing falsehoods, misstatements, and outright propaganda to confuse the population? Not enough have a firm understanding of history, culture, warfare, or politics. That is why we need clear leadership. Bush understands the nature of the world that we live in post 9-11; Kerry clearly does not.

Several posts and 352,000 words later and she finally comes to the point: Don't vote for Kerry.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by luvsTink
You speak with some "authority" in your tone about the Arab world. Have you lived there? Have you studied Islam? Have you had your house run over by a bulldozer? Have you had a parent riddled with machine gun fire because she spoke out against the tyranny of an occupying government? If you answered no to these questions I hope that you will study them a bit before you begin to denounce the value of another's culture.Anne

The answer is probably no, but she may've had a falafel at the state fair.

 

[luvsTink]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
The answer is probably no, but she may've had a falafel at the state fair.

Now that thar's funny!!!

 

[oracle]

Originally posted by Kendra17
My positivity is beyond impeachment. I consider this post and many of my other ones, but not all, as a small important sacrifice of my time in the hopes of spreading some essential knowledge so that those folks who have been blinkered by popular culture propaganda--leftist academic ideology and misinformation from the mass media--can break free of their bonds.

Wow. I'm speechless. I am without speech.

The truth of the world is much less complicated than the multiculturalist, lefty-academics and Dan Rathers would have you believe.

I think I may have found your problem here. The truth is that the world IS that complicated. In fact, it's probably more complicated than you've ever considered. But hey, black and white makes things so much easier, doesn't it?

Not enough have a firm understanding of history, culture, warfare, or politics.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[LisaZoe]

Originally posted by Kendra17
The truth of the matter is this--and please excuse my ridiculous positivity as displayed by the existence of this response.

My positivity is beyond impeachment. I consider this post and many of my other ones, but not all, as a small important sacrifice of my time in the hopes of spreading some essential knowledge so that those folks who have been blinkered by popular culture propaganda--leftist academic ideology and misinformation from the mass media--can break free of their bonds.

I'm not going to attempt to address your comments past the quoted section above. I, too, am almost speechless (wordless in the context of this thread) by the arrogance (or possibly naivete') of your belief that by writing this and other posts, you are somehow suddenly going to change the minds of people who had previously been of an opposing viewpoint. Are you some deity who is the sole possessor of this so called "essential knowledge"? If not, until you are granted your godhood, please attempt to refrain from presuming that you are the keeper of any knowledge or special enlightenment.

Believe me, although I may agree with you on a few minor points, I don't agree with the majority of your views. Even so, I support your right to hold those views and would hope you'd show the courtesy of doing the same in return. However, you seem to be showing no such courtesy in your assumption that only mindless drones "blinkered by popular culture propaganda" could be in disagreement with you.

For my part, as one who will be voting for Kerry, I assure you that I have no need of your to help "break free of my bonds". I am perfectly capable of deciding things for myself and do not accept information as definitive from any one source, unlike many Bush supporters.

 

[ThAnswr]

Originally posted by LisaZoe
I'm not going to attempt to address your comments past the quoted section above. I, too, am almost speechless (wordless in the context of this thread) by the arrogance (or possibly naivete') of your belief that by writing this and other posts, you are somehow suddenly going to change the minds of people who had previously been of an opposing viewpoint. Are you some deity who is the sole possessor of this so called "essential knowledge"? If not, until you are granted your godhood, please attempt to refrain from presuming that you are the keeper of any knowledge or special enlightenment.

Martin Luther King Jr. said something that fits in perfectly here:

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

 

[Maleficent13]

Great quote from MLK, Jr.

I am struck not quite speechless by the obvious passion and conviction the OP displays. I am amazed at her grasp of the absolute truths of the universe. Seriously. I am an incredibly introspective person, and I am no closer to reaching absolute truth today than I was when I was born. It must make life so much simpler to have that knowledge. I perhaps envy the simplicity, but cannot emulate it. To me, there is no absolute truth, there is only the one I subscribe to.

 

[Kendra17]

Moral Inversion.

Moral inversion is a term coined by Michael Polanyi that refers to the contradictory syndrome of 1) denouncing ethics as groundless and then 2) furiously issuing ethical pronouncements (regarding those that do not denounce ethical or moral judgments-- as groundless).

 

[Maleficent13]

Okay, I'm slightly lost. Did someone here denounce ethics as groundless? If they did, I missed it.